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#1 17-11-05 16:38:25

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,297

ADI Group Meeting Minutes

Hi All
These are now available at:
http://uk.msnusers.com/MotorSchoolsAsso … 2005%2Epdf

Offline

17-11-05 16:38:25

AdBot
Google AdSense Posting Bot

Re: ADI Group Meeting Minutes



#2 17-11-05 16:57:18

jonks
Guest

Re: ADI Group Meeting Minutes

I get forbidden page

HTTP Error 403 - Forbidden
Internet Explorer

#3 17-11-05 18:02:55

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,297

Re: ADI Group Meeting Minutes

Hi
Sorry about that. It works for me.
If the link doesn't work that way, I wonder if it is because it is for an msmusers page.

Try to log in to the MSA forum and you will find it on the lefthand side.

Offline

#4 17-11-05 18:12:59

Nimrod
Guest

Re: ADI Group Meeting Minutes

Unfortunately pegasus it appears as though the minutes are only available to members of the MSA (just like the forum).

Nim


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#5 17-11-05 18:49:58

DAVE-ADI
Guest

Re: ADI Group Meeting Minutes

Here ya go:

On commencement of the meeting a discussion took place regarding the taking and reporting of the minutes of the meeting. DIA as hosts and chair of the meeting agreed to take the minutes. All present agreed that their respective organisations would not print details of the discussions that took place until the minutes had been agreed by all attendees. All those attending agreed that no credit on decisions made, would be apportioned to any one group or individual and that no comments would be attributable to any one person organization attending.

Compulsory use of log books

D
oubts were raised over the effectiveness of the current Log Book, particularly with regard to making it compulsory. After much discussion, the Forum came to the conclusion that, if it were to be compulsory, the Log Book would have to be seriously reviewed to ensure that all ADI associations were happy with the contents and wording.
Specifically, it would need to accurately reflect the full syllabus and all aspects of driver training for use as a working document by all professional ADIs in a manner that instilled confidence among the general public to the effect that, no matter which driving school they used, the syllabus would be adequately covered.
The mandatory signing off of a Log Book in its current format was not considered acceptable. Much discussion took place as to the potential wording and the number of signatures necessary, but it was agreed that the word ‘opinion’ should be struck from any of the documentation and that the legalities were looked at very carefully, specifically with regard to the potential consequences of a Log Book being signed off by an ADI to state that a pupil had covered the syllabus or was ready for a test. The majority of Forum members favoured the words ‘the syllabus has been covered’ to be signed off by the pupil; suitable words would be found for the qualified ADI to sign off as well.
It was further suggested that a trainee/PDI would need to have a Log Book signed off by an ADI to say the syllabus had been covered correctly. Once all these points had been addressed, it was agreed by most parties that it would be desirable that only a qualified ADI would be able to sign a Log Book indicating the test-readiness of a candidate. However, while the present trainee system exists, some organisations favoured signing off by a trainee.
One of the major concerns with regards to the signing off of a Log Book by a qualified ADI was how the information would be used by the DSA, and whether it would be accurate. One suggestion was to make it compulsory for every ADI to display their licence on a driving test. Removing the legal requirement for a green badge was favoured by some organisations.

Compulsory re-taking of the ADI Part 2 test

There were grave concerns over the compulsory re-taking of the Part 2 test, particularly following the introduction of Eco-driving as part of the Part 2 test from 1 October 2005. The consensus was that any compulsory re-taking of the Part 2 test for a fully qualified ADI would be wholly unacceptable. It was pointed out that the DSA had concerns about the standard of driving by some ADIs; concerns based on the Agency’s own experiences of ADIs applying to become examiners and failing at the ordinary driving test level. It was suggested that some ADIs fail to recognise that sitting beside and tutoring learners for many years could result in a standard of driving on a par with a learner.
One suggested remedy to the problem was for the various associations to come up with a proposal for CPD addressing driving standards to be offered to the DSA, whereby advisory briefings and assessments could take place (on a voluntary basis). A development of driving programmes — independently monitored and acceptable to the DSA — could be rolled out through national or local organisations.
It was agreed that every effort should be made not to repeat the situation after HPT became part of the new driving test. Eco-Driving will become part of the new driving test for the public in 2007. The Forum agreed that the industry needed to be ‘ahead of the game’ and take its proposals to the Agency rather than vice versa. It was also made clear that Part 3 should not become an ‘issue’ as well.

The certification of manoeuvres by an ADI

It was strongly held that ADIs — or certain elements of the ADI industry — would abuse this facility. Because of the lack of space at test centres, as well as local authorities and supermarkets now objecting to the driving school industry practising on their property, it was agreed that a more progressive approach would be to organise a national campaign — with the aid of the DSA — to persuade local councils to allocate one or two bays in local authority car parks at certain times of the day and at weekends for practising certain manoeuvres. 

The release of ADI data by the DSA to organisations or to the public

It was agreed that the associations would support any ADI under the Data Protection Act concerning the release of information by the DSA without the ADI’s express permission. Of particular concern was the release of personal information onto the DSA website unbeknown to the ADI concerned. As a point of correspondence, a registered office address should be sufficient. Any other material would have to be agreed upon with the individual. However, it was pointed out that if an ADI uses a website — and is charging money for it — some rules would apply with regard to the disclosure of a contactable address. It was agreed that a survey of those present be conducted to see if we could reach common ground on a recommendation to DSA regarding publication of ADI information.

The future of check testing

Concerns were voiced about check test data being used to remove an ADI from the Register. It was pointed out that currently the appeals procedure for such cases is run by the Department for Transport, not the DSA, and that it can take up to a year for an appeal to be heard. During the interim an ADI could potentially carry on practising as a driving instructor.
The format of check testing came under a lot of discussion, in particular that it should be brought under the auspices of CPD, and that the CPD elements could be triggered by the results of an ADI’s DL25. From those results it would then be possible to show a development programme to an SE to show the ADI had taken on board areas for development.
Discussion did take place on the relative merits of check tests and how they should be conducted. It was pointed out that anybody can train to the standard of passing a check test, but that this was no absolute demonstration of the normal standard of tuition. Incorporating check testing into CPD was seen as a more fully encompassing method of judging whether an ADI is fit to carry on in the driving instructor profession.
It was pointed out that instructors very rarely see other instructors giving a driving lesson and that they would benefit greatly by studying different training and teaching styles by sitting in with some of their colleagues; this was despite the gross mistrust — often motivated by personality and money issues — inherent in the industry.
In instances of repeatedly poor check test results, it was considered a common scenario for the ADI concerned not to have sought help or training early enough and then to expect the respective associations to bail them out at the last moment. An example was cited by an association representative who had once taken a phone call from an ADI only the night before he was due to take his check test and almost demanding that he be taken out for some preparatory training. It was agreed that such behaviour is not acceptable and that, while the industry must endeavour to make help available, it is for individuals to ‘wake up’ and realise ‘they’re not God’s gift to the industry’.
It was agreed that check tests and CPD combined — together with an advisory briefing from the SE ADI — would be desirable and that, as an industry, we should work closer with the DSA in helping to achieving this.
The Forum was also concerned about any form of electronic or e-learning device for check testing. While cost effective as far as the DSA is concerned, would it really constitute a proper investigation into teaching skills?

CPD

Much discussion took place concerning the ‘rolling out’ of a national CPD scheme at local level. We know from various discussions with the DSA that they are keen to achieve this at a local association level, although it was pointed out that the DSA may have been misinformed about the strength nationally of local associations and that, as national bodies, the associations present would have to work together much more closely so that CPD packages could be devised for approval by the DSA. Such packages could then be rolled out on a local basis, which would be much more cost effective for the individual.
It was mooted by certain organisations that CPD should be paid for by the DSA. However, in all other industries CPD is normally paid for by the individual. In the case of driving instruction, the cost would presumably eventually be borne by the general public through the price of lessons, and individual instructors would have to factor the cost of CPD into their lessons; for example, £500 over a period of perhaps two years.
Discussion took place on the tutors that would deliver CPD and whether they would have to be registered with the DSA. The current disarray of ORDIT was cited, with its clash of interests between business-motivated and association-looyal members on the committee. It was agreed that, although there were business considerations to be taken into account, there had to be economic considerations made to all sides. It was recognised that there were many within the industry with the qualification and the expertise to devise and deliver all elements of CPD

Compulsory re-taking of Parts 1 and 2

Major concerns were again voiced concerning the threat to livelihoods inherent in re-taking the Part 2 exam. A large proportion of people around the table thought it incomprehensible that any ADI ‘worth their salt’, should be frightened of taking Part 2. Despite this, it was agreed, particularly with the introduction of Eco-driving, that CPD should be used so that the industry would monitor its own training in this area with the DSA’s accreditation and blessing.
Various concerns were voiced over the standardisation of eco-driving. A common worry was how an examiner would know exactly how any one vehicle performs. Examiners might well have to familiarise themselves with as many as 50 or 60 different vehicles, and the way they performed at different weight loads — particularly if there happened to be a supervising examiner in the vehicle. Driving the Essential Skills now incorporates a whole chapter on Eco-driving, but it was thought that developing more in-depth advice into a training session would be much more acceptable to the industry. It is intended that Eco-driving be introduced to the driving test in 2007. Currently there are only four organisations who cover advanced driver testing: RoSPA, IAM, DIAmond, and RAC.  All CPD includes an element of validation but how should that validation be achieved? It was agreed that the current check test is adequate in coping with Part 3, and that — apart from the incorporation of CPD into Part 3 — the retaking of Part 3 would not be countenanced in any shape or form.
A discussion took place concerning the recent industry acrimony over HPT for existing ADIs and how it represented an ‘opportunity missed’; also that it was right the industry agree to the current format. Concern was expressed for the current 30 per cent of ADI’s who have still to take the HPT before the DSA deadline of 31 December 2006. There were on-going concerns over the quality of the HPT material used, and it was agreed that this should be a topic for debate with the DSA in the future.. 

Instructor trainee licensing

It was agreed that the current system is now inoperable in so much that the supervision of the PDI is not being achieved, and the system is open to abuse. The consensus was that the industry ought now to move towards a fully-qualified ADI, using a probationary period of supervision and mentoring through either college or driving and input from the DSA. This would ensure an all-round instructor. It was thought that the training period for ADIs could be substantially reduced in line with the DSA’s training of examiners within a 4-6 week period. It was also agreed that, if the training period was reduced for PDIs, the DSA would have to amend their bookings procedures and lead times. Some discussion took place regarding the potential of bringing in psychometric testing to assess candidate suitability.


Reassessment of the general public

Everyone agreed that any legislation to introduce mandatory retaking of the driving test every ten years wouldn’t exactly be a vote winner (!), but the experience of national driver improvement schemes showed that this would benefit older drivers. However, it would clearly be difficult to change the habits of a lifetime in just a half day’s on-road training. It was also pointed out that older people become very territorial in their driving habits so that when an instructor takes them out to a different area for a national driver improvement scheme, they tend to be more ‘at sea’. Although everybody thought this idea would be beneficial for road safety, it was deemed unfeasible in the current climate.

Qualifications and registrations on various types of training and teaching licences

It was agreed that the whole area of unlicensed advanced driver training through the use of so-called ‘observers’ — and the problems the DSA has had in attempting to bring any such cases court — was a thorny issue. Exercising the law in such cases has proved exceedingly difficult, particularly as some of the larger organisations have very strong political allies.  The DSA currently spends somewhere in the region of £75,000 a year on legal advice for illegal tuition and all of the areas of fleet risk management. It was mooted that if ADIs all have to engage in CPD, why should a large and growing section of the driver training industry be exempt, particularly where unqualified people are unable to answer some of the simplest questions put to them, at some compliance courses? A halt was eventually called on this contentious subject. All agreed to keep an eye on this area in the future and to keep the DSA informed, so that CPD did not become just a task for the ordinary ADI, but for all concerned with driver assessment, training and testing.

Compulsory training for
16-17-year-olds, prior to taking the Theory Test

Major concerns were shared by all Forum members over the number of road fatalities among the 17-25 age group. It was acknowledged that certain areas of road safety are currently being investigated with regard to citizenship, GCSE and driver education. However, the consensus around the table was that we should pay close attention to who is actually delivering this element of training to youngsters, so that the ADI’s contribution is not overlooked. It was agreed that this matter should be on the agenda of the next meeting.

Code of Conduct

The issue of the current Code of Conduct was discussed. It became apparent that some members of the Forum were not aware that the Code of Conduct was drawn up in conjunction with the DSA and other associations. In light of this — and in the interests of keeping the Code of Conduct relevant to the modern ADI — it was agreed that some modernisation of the Code would be desirable. Some discussion took place over the practicality of policing the Code and the desirability of a penalty or fines system, but no firm conclusions were made on this issue. It was agreed that this matter should be on the agenda of the next meeting.

Dual controls on test

The issue of dual control cars being made mandatory for driving tests was discussed. It was acknowledged that the Minister of State for Transport, Dr Stephen Ladyman, has already committed himself to a feasibility study from a health & safety point of view — for examiners anyway —  so no further discussion took place over the issue. 


Lights not working on test

Much discussion took place over the Show Me Tell Me part of the driving test, with particular reference to the termination of test due to vehicle lights not working. Under the Road Traffic Act it is an offence to have defective lights, so an examiner has no option under the regulations.
    It was suggested that a light check be done prior to arriving at the test centre so that, where possible, the lights could be changed. It was also pointed out that pupils were actively encouraged to say they didn’t know where the light switch was, but that on occasions where an examiner did know the location of the switch, this would be marked as a major fault. It was noted that with many modern vehicles it is exceedingly difficult to change light bulbs within the allotted time of 5 minutes and an early check was recommended. 

Joint national award scheme

One association representative present suggested that the assembled Forum ought, as a body, to become involved in a joint national award scheme for instructors. The consensus was that such a scheme, however desirable, may be a little premature due to the logistics involved. It was agreed that all present would like to work together as a body for a longer period before committing to any national conference scheme for the presentation of national awards.


Insurance for driving tests

The question of insurance was raised and, in particular, of the candidate signing off the DSA declaration as to a vehicle being adequately covered for the purposes of a driving test. Some suggested that candidates were occasionally misleading the DSA in signing the declaration because all they wanted to do was take their test, regardless of proper insurance cover. It was suggested that it should be mandatory for insurance and MOT documents to be shown prior to test. However, the consensus of opinion was against this proposal. It was decided that, as associations representing professional people, they should regularly mention the importance of having the necessary documentation; but beyond that it should be the candidate’s responsibility. In the event of anything going wrong on a driving test, the candidate would be liable through his insurance or, in its absence, through misleading a government official by getting the document signed off to say they were properly covered. 

Use of video equipment during a driving test

Much conversation took place concerning the use of video equipment during a driving test. It was agreed that the driving test, as we know it today, is conducted in a straightforward format that everybody understands. If video equipment were to be  installed into a test vehicle, this would put the examiner under undue pressure and, in a marginal situation, could lead to a default fail from the examiner. It was pointed out that cameras are used on test in one European country, but this is to guard against the sort of endemic corruption in the system that simply does not exist in the UK. The DSA ‘opened the doors’, as it were, many years ago for driving instructors to sit in on a test with their pupil’s permission.  It was pointed out that those present at the Forum who had taken the trouble to go out on test had never disagreed with the decision that was made, pass or fail. It was also noted that four cameras would be needed rather than just one, with obviously prohibitive cost implications. Further, any video footage gathered without the examiner’s or the DSA’s permission would be inadmissible as evidence in court.

Examiner pass rates

The next item concerned the proposal for publishing examiner pass rates. There was a good deal of support for this around the table, but it was also strenuously pointed out that such a proposal would automatically entail publishing ADI pass rates as well, which would be undesirable to association members as well as contravening the Data Protection Act.

Summary

It was agreed by everybody around the table that draft minutes of the meeting would be circulated and, where possible, suggestions, alterations and agreement made prior to publication. 
The Chairman then asked the assembled company if they thought the day had been useful and if it would be desirable to have similar meetings in the future. The response was unanimously in favour. The Chairman then asked for somebody to take on the responsibility for chairing and organising the next meeting, and MSA agreed.


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#6 17-11-05 22:04:47

DAVE-ADI
Guest

Re: ADI Group Meeting Minutes

Concern was expressed for the current 30 per cent of ADI’s who have still to take the HPT before the DSA deadline of 31 December 2006.

No, that's definitely not correct.

According to DSA figures, about 70% have still not taken it.


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#7 18-11-05 23:22:37

marconi1
Verified Member
From: Dawlish
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 693
Website

Re: ADI Group Meeting Minutes

The DIA web site confirms that 70% have NOT taken the test yet, It must be an error in print.

http://www.driving.org/


Dave Foster MA, Dip.DI
F.inst.D.E.R, M.Inst.MTD, M.A.I.R.O, A.I.F.L,
Foster the Joy of Driving
http://dte-elite.co.uk  http://drivertrainingeducation.co.uk

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