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#76 21-08-05 14:59:23

luchell
Guest

Re: round the back

no offence airmiles but im not even going to go into describing how i get into a car in different circumstances. im far from stupid and i dont have a dog. im perfectly sensible enough to get into my car the safest most appropriate way.

21-08-05 14:59:23

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Re: round the back



#77 21-08-05 15:11:00

firehydrant
Guest

Re: round the back

Quite right, luchell!

For me, round the back normally, round the front if there's a transit or whatever parked 30cm from my rear bumper, between other cars further down if necessary (and someone has parked stupidly close), and so on. Necessary observations and precautions at all times.

What was it you have emphasised to you on part 3? Don't stick rigidly to prescribed plans.

#78 21-08-05 15:15:05

luchell
Guest

Re: round the back

thankyou fh. flexibility! to do what is safest using your own judgement.


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#79 21-08-05 15:32:42

sparkle
Guest

Re: round the back

crab.jpg


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#80 21-08-05 15:45:10

Airmiles
Guest

Re: round the back

Excerpt from ..............  Drive Right  ............... (2005 Edition)

Chapter 3.2

Getting Ready to Drive

Before you take your place behind the wheel to drive, you should follow certain checks and procedures.... People who ...........with little thought or concern for themselves or others are demonstrating high-risk driving behaviours.

Outside Checks

(Details about inspecting outside of vehicle, plus water, tyres, etc)

Getting into the vehicle

1. If you enter your vehicle from the street side, have your keys in your hand ready to unlock the door. If you use a remote-control device, unlock the vehicle before you walk into the street.

2. Walk around the front of the vehicle towards the back. You can then see oncoming traffic and reduce the risk of being hit. Do not open the door if an oncoming vehicle is near.

3. Get in quickly, close the door, and lock it. Put the key in the ignition.

((( Accompanied by colour photograph showing man keeping an eye on traffic approaching from rear as he prepares to enter car. )))

Note: The learner's own work book has Q&A on this subject, in addition to it being discussed in classroom as part of the syllabus with the teacher, when such facilities are available.

Inside Checks

(Cockpit drill etc)


So that's it ..........    All quite elementary really..........you have to agree........ the preferred method by an estimated 1 billion drivers worldwide........... who are all pedestrians until they actually get into the vehicles they intend to drive...


And sanctioned by many very eminent people involved with road safety, and also numerous driving school proprietors, in addition to the book's Consulting Author, .....

Frederik R Mottola, Professor Emeritus of Public Health at Southern Connecticut State University and Executive Director of Driver Behaviour Institute. Also creator of the Zone Control System of Space Management and Reference Point Visualizations. And consultant and educator for traffic safety education programmes for teachers, students, and drivers at national and international levels.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you opponents right and all the 'world' wrong  :?:  :?:  :?: Seriously  :?:  :?:  :?: Not forgetting what DfT have said  :?:  :?:  :?:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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#81 21-08-05 16:51:27

firehydrant
Guest

Re: round the back

I find it hilarious when people start quoting - en masse - written information to support a view and then sit there, arms folded, with the 'so what have you got to say about that then' look on their faces wink Meanwhile, Mr Common Sense has been locked in the cellar for the duration.

It has always been better to go round the back under normal circumstances for the common sense reasons given. You can be seen better by the traffic closest to you.

Think about it: your car, no others either end of it, parked against the kerb, lots of oncoming traffic. Now what kind of dipstick would go round the front and hide themselves from traffic, eh? It's almost suicidal.

Apply common sense to variations on the 'round the back' theme and you are set for life. Try it with the 'round the front' one and you always risk masking yourself from traffic unnecessarily in situations where you could avoid it by going round the back.

Fad ideas which set out to change something simply to justify some new publication or someone's name come and go.

Needing books to tell you how to behave safely in simple situations really does ring alarm bells for me smile


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#82 21-08-05 16:52:34

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: round the back

Airmiles wrote:

....
It's no wonder that some EU experts ridicule what goes on in UK learner driver training and ADI Trainer schools..   roll

There can be very few 'EU Experts' in a position to ridicule the UK on the subject of learner training.  Although I wouldn't say we are perfect by any means we do have one of the best road safety records in the world and that puts the UK in a good position to be experts!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

Offline


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#83 21-08-05 17:05:06

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: round the back

Airmiles wrote:

....
So that's it ..........    All quite elementary really..........you have to agree........ the preferred method by an estimated 1 billion drivers worldwide

Who made that estimate?  Based on what survey?  and who sponsored the survey?  How was the question asked?

Airmiles wrote:

....And sanctioned by many very eminent people involved with road safety, and also numerous driving school proprietors,

and so is the 'rear entry' method sanctioned by very eminent people involved in Road Safety and also numerous driving school proprietors

Airmiles wrote:

in addition to the book's Consulting Author, .....

Frederik R Mottola, Professor Emeritus of Public Health at Southern Connecticut State University and Executive Director of Driver Behaviour Institute. Also creator of the Zone Control System of Space Management and Reference Point Visualizations. And consultant and educator for traffic safety education programmes for teachers, students, and drivers at national and international levels.

Considering the US are way behind us in terms of road safety I don't really think this necessarily qualifies him that highly.  Not that I'm saying he should be disregarded, but I wouldn't take his opinion as the gospel either!

Airmiles wrote:

Are you opponents right and all the 'world' wrong  :?:  :?:  :?: Seriously  :?:  :?:  :?: Not forgetting what DfT have said  :?:  :?:  :?:

As Sparkle said, 'agree to differ'.  None of this has persuaded me to change my views, I will still walk around the back of the car rather than the front.  Doesn't make me right and you wrong or you right and me wrong.  Just means we have different opinions!  Vive la difference!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

Offline


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#84 21-08-05 17:09:50

sparkle
Guest

Re: round the back

adiNigel wrote:

   
and so is the 'rear entry' method sanctioned by very eminent people involved in Road Safety and also numerous driving school proprietors

AMEN

Ive said all along the 'rear entry' is the better one out the two..

Going round the back of the car is my favoured way also wink

#85 21-08-05 17:13:10

Badger
Guest

Re: round the back

Hear hear Nigel !  So nice to see someone standing up for Great Britain for once.

What can Europe teach us about anything I wonder ?

Certainly quite a lot about how not to do things  WW2, Rover, etc etc

You're quite right about our record.  One of the most congested countries in the world with one of the best crash statistics.

Dont tell the DSA though because they will claim its all down to their clever efforts.

Badger

#86 21-08-05 18:02:23

Airmiles
Guest

Re: round the back

But how about the view of the road safety expert in the UK Department for Transport ?

He may not be qualified in teaching someone how to operate a car, but HMG Road Safety Minister considers him fit and proper to hold his appointment in road safety department, so he must be right on this particular subject, you must agree ?

And I am sure that DSA and ADIs throughout the country will be taking his advice and incorporating it into the learning to drive syllabus, sometime in the near future.

If it is in the next edition of Driving - Essential Skills, all of you will take it on board and teach it. You would not want to foul up your check tests by doing something quite contrary to ''The Book'', would you ?

And with regards EU, many of those lot over the Channel have a far superior record in regards the safety of pedestrians on the public roads, so yes we can learn something from them.

And don't forget, they now rule us, and they have ways of making us conform.

The ''EU Unified Highway Code'' is on the horizon, in Directive #** coming over on the Eurostar train soon............................


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#87 21-08-05 20:11:23

Graham10
Member
Registered: 17-02-05
Posts: 185

Re: round the back

Drive right is an american book, look at their death rate on the roads

heres an americans review

First of all this book is not written for each state, so you will have to check on your own state or county laws along with this book. As for this book not helping you pass the "TEST". Responsible drivers know that their is much much more to driving then passing the "TEST", which this book goes into great detail letting its readers know. I've been A police officer for almost 9 years and now work at a school and deal with children all the time and a lot of thing seem boring to them. But we as adults must continue the teach, and hope that some of what they read sinks in. When dealing with driving a vehicle, learning by experience a lot of times ends up to late. This book doesn't teach you how to pass the "TEST" it teaches you how to be a better driver, something we all need to be...


Graham

Offline

#88 21-08-05 20:16:03

Graham10
Member
Registered: 17-02-05
Posts: 185

Re: round the back

if its that busy, I get in the near side, being more or less fit, I can jump across, and I would not put a pupil in danger. would you.


Graham

Offline

#89 21-08-05 20:35:56

Graham10
Member
Registered: 17-02-05
Posts: 185

Re: round the back

A little bit about one of the authors of drive right

Owen Crabb is a senior staff analyst with the Maryland State Department of Education's Division of Instruction. He is a former president of the American Driver And Traffic Safety Education Association and has published numerous articles on the future of driver education.

A look at the past is always a good way to develop a balanced perspective on the future. With this in mind, there are three things I will try to do in this assessment of what the future holds for driver educators.

First, I will provide you with a historical overview of driver education as it has grown to maturity in the United States. In doing so, I may miss some of the "standard bearers" of the past, but believe me, this is not intentional.

Second, I will focus on the changes that driver educators, and the rest of our world, are going through today - a world in which the possibilities for new and exciting kinds of education are unlimited.

Third, I will suggest three building block principles for the future.
How it all started

A search for the origins of formal driver education can focus on a few early simultaneous efforts: In 1928, Amos Neyhart in Pennsylvania; the American Automobile Association (AAA) in Saganaw, Michigan; and the Chicago Motor Club were involved in fledgling driver education programs.

Neyhart wrote his master's thesis on his project and went on to develop and expand a safety program at what was then Pennsylvania State College. At the AAA's national office, Will Scarlett and Burton Marsh picked up on, and expanded, the Chicago Motor Club initiative.

The next major development occurred in 1949 at Jackson's Mill, West Virginia, the birthplace of one of the Civil War's most famous generals, Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson. Here, the First National Conference on Driver Education was an event that had probably as much significance for driver educators as Jackson's famous Battle of Bull Run had for the American Civil War.

Traffic safety professionals from across the nation came together and formalized recommendations for driver education standards, such as the 30 hours classroom and six hours in-car time that became de facto national standards. They still form the basis of many driver education programs across the continent.

In the 1950s, driver education experienced the kind of explosive growth that most new movements go through early in their existence. During this period, when driver education was an optional offering, the insurance industry established driver education insurance premium discount programs. Later, some would say it was a way of identifying individuals who were already predisposed to establishing a good driving record. In other words, individuals who opted to take driver education courses tended to be good students who drove less and were less risky in their driving styles.

Also in the '50s, newly developed university traffic safety centers flooded the high school market with teachers equipped with driver education credentials, and driving simulators came into popular use.

The next year of note is 1956 when the National Commission on Safety Education convened a meeting of the presidents and vice-presidents of all state driver and traffic safety education associations (about 32 at the time). From this meeting, the American Driver and Traffic Safety Education Association (ADTSEA) took form, and it has provided leadership to those in the field ever since.

The next date to remember is 1973, a big year for driver education's private sector. While this sector had been growing all along, it came of age in 1973 when the first meeting of the Driving School Association of the Americas took place in Boston.

During 1977, two significant events took place that affected the driver education movement even to this day. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) launched a major campaign to question the value of driver education. The IIHS asserted that if driver ed were not offered, 80% of eligible 16- and 17-year-old youth would wait until they were 18 or older to get a licence because their parents had asked them to do so. This sentiment prompted headlines across the nation and, to this day, has had a lingering effect on the public's attitude towards driver ed.

The second development in 1977 was the start of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's Safe Performance Curriculum project in DeKalb County, near Atlanta. This research project was billed as one of the biggest and best ever. Ultimately, it did not demonstrate driver education as being effective in reducing crash rates of novice drivers.

That brings us to the '90s. How have the seeds of driver education grown? Let's look at three areas: high schools, commercial driving schools, and driver licensing systems.
High schools

Most readers will already know that high school driver ed programs are going through some real tough times. Part of this problem is caused by programs that were built on 1940s standards. But to a greater degree, driver education problems are a symptom of difficulties being experienced in public schooling in general. Remember, schools and programs reflect the community they're in. Take, for example, Ross Perot's observation of the difference between schools when he was a kid and the schools of today:

"The seven major discipline problems when I was in school in the '30s and '40s were talking, chewing gum, making noise, running in the halls, getting out of turn in line, wearing improper clothing, and - here's one that really used to shake the place up - not putting paper in the wastebasket.

Here are today's major public school problems in order: drug abuse, alcohol abuse, pregnancy, suicide, rape, robbery, and assault. I went through the public schools in the Depression and never heard of one of them."

To these changes add the most severe funding problems in history for many states, and you'll see it's little wonder that high school driver education has hit a rough stretch of road.
Driving schools

As one might expect, the private sector has experienced significant growth in many areas. After all, 27 states in 1991 still required driver education for 16- and 17-year-old drivers. But this doesn't receive much attention in a press that thrives on adversity.

How have driving schools prospered in this current environment? While it's no more fair to stereotype commercial driving schools than it is high schools, nonetheless some generalizations are valid. Without a doubt, some large, well-run driving schools have refined this business and then some.

In fact, if (McDonalds founder) Ray Kroc were alive today, he might be taking notes.

The flip side to this image of the driving school industry shows that it is getting increasingly difficult to maintain quality. In some situations, it is the rule rather than the exception to employ on-road instructors who have no formal teaching or traffic safety preparation at all.
Driver licensing

Any look at driver education should factor in licensing. At a minimum, licensing should not simply generate revenue, which it obviously does; it should provide a medical screening and other assurances that an individual will be a reasonably competent driver, and in many cases that is, to a degree, happening.

As a result of some states taking graduated or provisional licensing to heart, many new drivers are experiencing better driving records. But some sad facts are worthy of note. In Maryland, half of those taking their initial licensing test fail. Is this the result of an unreasonable test or a failure of driver education? The answer to that question can't be analyzed here, but it's something to think about.

There is one additional thought on education that has implications for schooling and licensing. One of the most profound developments emerging from current public school reform movements goes under the label of Outcome-Based Education. Prophets of this approach will tell you to forget course hours and credit counts and focus on outcomes. Driver educators have been warming up to this notion for several years and in some areas, notably motorcycle rider education, have some lessons for others.

Finally, before going on to the topic of change, let's not take our eye off the teen traffic problem. To put this in a health context: for 15- to 25-year-old youth, driving is still the major cause of death, although, regrettably, in some areas AIDS and homicides are now competing strongly in importance.
Change

Let me provide you with a few examples of change in the corporate world to set the scene for considering change in driver education.

I'd like to highlight a few points from a fascinating article entitled "Dinosaurs" (not the Jurassic Park variety) that ran in the May 3, 1993, edition of Fortune magazine. The article compares the market value of selected companies for the years 1972, 1982 and 1992. Two major findings pop out of the analysis:

    * Dramatic changes have taken place over the last two decades. For example, IBM, General Motors, and Sears all appear in the top 20 in 1972 and 1982 but drop off the list completely in 1992.
    * The information age is upon us and growing like crazy. As you might expect, AT&T is listed in 1972, 1982 and 1992. Even though it was broken up in 1984, it's still 7th on the 1992 list. But that's not the most impressive point. What takes your breath away is the combined value of AT&T and the seven "Baby Bell" companies. If it had not been broken up in 1984 it would have been the number one company in 1992 with a market value of $208 billion! As it was, Exxon topped the '92 list at $75.8 billion.

Before your head starts to swim with all this change stuff, let me add a dash of perspective. Joel Barker, in his wonderful futurist program that includes videos such as Paradigm Pioneers, likes to draw our attention to some of the changes our grandparents went through.

During the 20-year period from 1890 to 1910, these nine changes took shape: radio; the Model-T car for the masses; movies; the first powered flight by the Wright brothers; the discovery of X-rays; the spread of electrical power; the discovery of electrons; the discovery of a cure for malaria; and the establishment by Albert Einstein of the theory of relativity, which ushered in the atomic age.

One more thought to round out this discussion of the way our world is changing in the information age. Recently, the media made a fuss over the departure of John Sculley as Chairman of Apple computer. Sculley was a major figure in the rise of the Apple corporation and he's a good person to follow in keeping track of hi-tech change. In leaving Apple, he made this observation. By the year 2000, he predicts, Apple will simply give away computer hardware and make its money by providing services, software, and customized solutions to individual and business needs. One of Sculley's legacies to Apple has received big coverage in the media recently-a hand-held computer called the Newton.

The implications of these information-age products are dramatic for all of us. Consider for a moment the impact of the "electronic information superhighway" and video-on-demand by telephone. Might we soon have computer-served-and-assessed classroom experiences in a home setting? The possibilities are enormous. We should be planning for them.

Need we say more on the subject of change? The healthy frame of mind is to admit that we are in an era unlike any other. Yes, there have been times with high rates of innovation, but this information age we're in now is different, and the next ten years are going to change all that has gone before. Our challenge is to face up to this fact and participate actively in the reinvention of our world.
Conclusion

Where does all this leave driver educators as the changes crowd in on us? Three principles seem clear:

Driver education and licensing programs have grown up over the years, much like other industrial-age undertakings. Programs are provided on a time basis and are conducted in traditional settings such as schools and classrooms. As the rate of change in our world accelerates, driver education programs that adapt will be the ones that survive. One hopes that we long-time professionals in the field won't be like the frog in the story about the frying pan. Placed in a hot pan, the frog will jump and avoid being badly burned. But if the frog is placed in a cold pan that is slowly heated up, the heat may get to a lethal level before it occurs to it to jump. And then it's too late.

We are in the information age, and over the next few years we will be given the opportunity to reinvent driver education in ways that have not been possible before now. As we initiate these changes, it's likely that many of the structural rules we adhere to now will be broken.

As John Evans of News Electronic Data puts it, the reason parents want their children to play Monopoly is that all the rules are laid out on the lid of the box. The reason kids like to play Nintendo is that there are no rules to Super Mario Brothers or Tetris. It's only the outcome that counts.

Lastly, out of all this chaotic change, there really are some solid givens:

    * Instruction based on tested outcomes, or performance, will prevail.
    * Even in the information age, the ultimate interactive method of instruction will still be a caring, mentoring, professional teacher.
    * With the advent of recognized outcome standards, governing bodies are dropping out of their policing roles and picking up on monitoring outcomes or performance.

As you can see, someone who does not teach hands on
but make intresting reading

Graham

Offline


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#90 21-08-05 20:46:29

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: round the back

Graham10 wrote:

....
As you can see, someone who does not teach hands on
but make intresting reading

Graham

You really think so?  I gave up after the second paragraph!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

Offline


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#91 21-08-05 20:56:13

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: round the back

Airmiles wrote:

But how about the view of the road safety expert in the UK Department for Transport ?

Who did you speak to?  and what position does this person hold at the Dept for Transport?

Airmiles wrote:

He may not be qualified in teaching someone how to operate a car, but HMG Road Safety Minister considers him fit and proper to hold his appointment in road safety department, so he must be right on this particular subject, you must agree ?

Unless this person is particularly high up in the Civil Service then HMG Road Safety Minister probably doesn't know this person actually exists!

Airmiles wrote:

And I am sure that DSA and ADIs throughout the country will be taking his advice and incorporating it into the learning to drive syllabus, sometime in the near future.

personally, when the DSA say one thing and the Dept of Transport says the opposite, I think the government looks pretty silly!

Airmiles wrote:

If it is in the next edition of Driving - Essential Skills, all of you will take it on board and teach it.

Or else you will do what?  I do NOT take any orders from you!

Airmiles wrote:

You would not want to foul up your check tests by doing something quite contrary to ''The Book'', would you ?

If I can justify something I will stick to it.  If the SE is too rigid to accept a different opinion then so be it!

Airmiles wrote:

And with regards EU, many of those lot over the Channel have a far superior record in regards the safety of pedestrians on the public roads, so yes we can learn something from them.

Many?  I don't think so.  Some?  Quite possibly.

Airmiles wrote:

And don't forget, they now rule us,

No they don't.

Airmiles wrote:

and they have ways of making us conform.

The ''EU Unified Highway Code'' is on the horizon, in Directive #** coming over on the Eurostar train soon............................

Quite rightly so.  It the EU is the way forward, then there should be a Highway Code common to all member states.  I think you will find that this will incorporate most of the best practises from all member states.  No doubt the occaisional oddball will find its way through.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

Offline


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#92 21-08-05 21:54:30

Airmiles
Guest

Re: round the back

Nigel,

Steady on old chap, take it up with the Minister if you disagree with his staff  :shock:

Graham10,


Mr Crabb is no longer in that post.

There are 5 authors, including Fred.

2 Driver Education Consultants.

11 Reviewers who are also Ed Cons.

and..........      10 Driving Instructors who also reviewed the book.

The 2005 version ' Private Driving School Edition ' is valid throughout the whole country, and all 10 driving school owners/ instructors are/were 'office holders in the DSAA' which is mentioned in your previous (long) post earlier.   

Click following link for a Chapter Outline, but the relevant topic - this discussion- is omited unfortuneately......but there is a clue if you work your way through the site..

http://www.phschool.com/atschool/drive_ … index.html

.


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#93 21-08-05 22:21:17

Badger
Guest

Re: round the back

""He may not be qualified in teaching someone how to operate a car, but HMG Road Safety Minister considers him fit and proper to hold his appointment in road safety department, so he must be right on this particular subject, you must agree ?""

No - Definitely not.  The Government has a track record of placing unsuitable unqualified people in appointments that they have no experience of whatsoever.

This thread has gone off topic so Im locking it.  If you want to continue the discussion open a new thread with an appropriate title.

Badger

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