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#1 04-05-04 22:51:07

vince
Guest

Emergency Stop

Hi Y'all,
          Can some of you notables tell me if there's a particular reason why the e/stop doesn't seem to be covered until the lessons shortly before test date? I know that dual controls are Gods gift to instructors, but bearing in mind that an emergency can occur at any time (I could be taken ill!) is it not possible to cover this procedure early?
          Take care out there,.,.,,Vince wink

04-05-04 22:51:07

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Re: Emergency Stop




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#2 05-05-04 01:28:13

Tony
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 72
Website

Re: Emergency Stop

Hi Vince,

I agree with what you say, "an emergency could happen at any time" This is why I personally believe that the 'Emergency Stop' should be taught as early as possible.

Some say that instructors don't teach this until late on - just before a pupils test, because of the wear and tear on the brakes, tyres etc.

A bit silly, I would imagine to think this way, the wear and tear is going to happen anyway. Why not just get it out of the way and carry on with the rest of the lessons/manoeuvres.

Your going to have to pay for new tyres and brake pads sooner or later sad .

Tony.

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#3 05-05-04 06:54:53

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,962

Re: Emergency Stop

When I learned to drive many moons ago :oops:  the emergency stop was taught to me on the 3rd lesson,and was practiced regularly after that,I personally feel like Tony that it should be taught early on. And it is true an emergency could happen at any time.

Just my own thoughts on this for what there worth sad


Giz

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#4 05-05-04 07:13:56

DAVE-ADI
Guest

Re: Emergency Stop

Just to deviate slightly, but still on the matter of the emergency stop,   there is some confusion between examiners  at different test centres  regarding whether allowing the ABS to come on is acceptable on test.

There has been a couple of reports that candidates have failed when the ABS kicked in.

The official word from Robin Cummins at DSA is that if the car is fitted with ABS, providing the ES is carried out correctly, candidates should NOT fail for using the ABS.
Candidates failing on this will be offered a free retest.   

If you have, or had a problem  with this on a test please pm me and I will give you some further advice.


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#5 05-05-04 07:15:11

rusty
Verified Member
From: Tameside
Registered: 13-03-04
Posts: 333
Website

Re: Emergency Stop

I include emergency stop in the car control element useually about 5 lessons in , dependent on pupil.

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#6 05-05-04 07:35:25

Liesa
Guest

Re: Emergency Stop

When I teach the emergency stop depends on the individual pupil. Some I'll teach it to in the very early stages, others not until nearer the time when they apply for their test. And I don't teach any of the manouvers, at any set point, during a course of driving lessons either. Again these are taught at a time when I think it's appropriate to the individual pupil!

The emergency stop as far as the driving test, and driving lessons are concerned isn't realistic in my oppinion! I always think it's far too false for anyone to react to it as if in an emergency.

If a real situation occured, I'm very confident that all of my pupils would react in the correct way! After all, if they're taught correct braking proceedure from the start, why should there be a problem if an emergency should arise?

The emergency stop is only stopping promptly, in exactly the same way as you'd stop, if you were about to emerge at a roundabout or junction, then another vehicle seemed to appear from nowhere (because of their speed). All you're doing when performing the emergency stop, is moving faster than the situation described above, but the proceedure for stopping is the same. wink


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#7 05-05-04 10:24:27

DAVE-ADI
Guest

Re: Emergency Stop

Liesa wrote:

The emergency stop is only stopping promptly, in exactly the same way as you'd stop, if you were about to emerge at a roundabout or junction, then another vehicle seemed to appear from nowhere (because of their speed). All you're doing when performing the emergency stop, is moving faster than the situation described above, but the proceedure for stopping is the same. wink

Hmm,  I don't agree with you there Liesa.  It's totally different.   

When you are stopping very quickly as in an emergency you need to consider the possibility of locking the wheeels up & the resulting skid,  the road surface,  and steering.    And whether the car has ABS or not, as to how hard you brake, and when the clutch goes down.

#8 05-05-04 11:38:34

Liesa
Guest

Re: Emergency Stop

Hi Dave

By the time they've thought about all that, they've ran into whatever has ran out/pulled out in front of them!

These things do need to be considered and taught. I do go through it all with them, but when it comes to a real emergency, you just react, there's not time to think!

And tha was my point. wink


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#9 05-05-04 14:09:26

adi
Verified Member
From: shropshire
Registered: 28-02-04
Posts: 1,231
Website

Re: Emergency Stop

Going back to the original question, i teach emergency stop as soon as a pupil has mastered left and right turns and small roundabouts. Instructors all over the country will teach the syllabus in a slightly different order depending on what they feel is most important. I have taken on pupils in the past who have never been around a roundabout but have done a turn in the road. I suppose that is quite good really because they will have better clutch control but i personally prefer to leave manouvres a bit later. At the end of the day, teach in what ever order you like, as long as your pupil is learning and happy with what they are paying for and you feel that you are putting 100% into the lesson then its fine! smile

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#10 05-05-04 16:06:13

arib
Verified Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 258
Website

Re: Emergency Stop

DAVE-ADI wrote:

The official word from Robin Cummins at DSA is that if the car is fitted with ABS, providing the ES is carried out correctly, candidates should NOT fail for using the ABS.
Candidates failing on this will be offered a free retest.

Dave,
The first sentence contradicts the second in my opinion. One says they should not fail and the other says a free retest if they do. :?:
If a pupil failed only for this reason then surely the instructor would ask for the decision to be overturned.
Dont let the examiner say this is not possible because I know of two instances were it was.

ariB

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#11 05-05-04 17:35:46

DAVE-ADI
Guest

Re: Emergency Stop

There is inconsistency with ES decisions.  Some examiners are failing candidates because the ABS has activated, whilst others are happy with it.  We already know of at least 3 instances.

Some instructors seem very reluctant to question decisions made by examiners,  which means their pupils are losing out.

#12 05-05-04 19:16:10

vince
Guest

Re: Emergency Stop

Thank you all for your input, all very informative, Liesa, to an extent I agree with your statement however, surely it is different to "normal" braking (however severe) inasmuch that during "normal" braking the car SHOULD stop at a predetermined position, wheras in the e-stop the car will often be stopped in a hazardous position, frequently towards the centre of the road thus imposing the need for the additional safety observations present in the e-stop routine? Once again, thanks for the input, armed with your information I will endevour to teach the e-stop early ,(I'll feel safer!)
             take care out there ,.,.,.,.Vince wink


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#13 06-05-04 07:17:16

Liesa
Guest

Re: Emergency Stop

Hi Vince

thus imposing the need for the additional safety observations present in the e-stop routine?

What extra observations do you mean?

Surely you get your pupils, to look all around, before they move off everytime?

#14 06-05-04 14:34:13

TDC
Verified Member
Registered: 30-04-04
Posts: 1,948

Re: Emergency Stop

ok Leisa says e/stops are like normal braking at junction if you suddenly see someone, ok i know what Leisa means and its ok if you only teach the emergency stops at less than 15-20 mph as this is all they are tested on (in 1 in every 3 tests) (Leisa im not saying you teach like this just using your example of words)

how many emergencies occur when travelling faster than 20mph???  mmmm quite a few...
how many e /stops are taught at faster than 20 mph?????
mmmmm  i never seen anyone else do it and its certainly not tested at higher speeds

do you think this could possibly be a huge factor in why the DSA constantly spout about new drivers having accidents, hardly surprising if they havent ever really been taught to stop safely at higher spped than 20mph is it???

re the ABS issue Robin Cummins is a complete idiot then, his statement makes little sense and does he not realise that as new drivers very few will be buying a new enough car that has ABS fitted so when they come to do their first genuine emergency stop they will floor the brake, lock up as there is no ABS to help them and end up stuck in some poor sods rear end with blood pouring from a deep facial wound and 4 broken ribs if they are lucky.  surely they have to be taught and tested to stop any car whether with or without ABS safely, this means without the ABS kicking in.
The DSA need to 'get real' ,their examiners need to stop being such 'scaredy cats' and actually test the emergency stop properly and more regularly and at higher speeds and we need to be teaching it properly and more and at higher speeds too.


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#15 06-05-04 15:14:29

Michaela7
Member
From: Portsmouth, Hampshire
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 53
Website

Re: Emergency Stop

TDC,

I don't know about anyone else but I teach e/stop at any speed form 20-30 mph. It's quite often nearer to 30. When I took my part 2 test I had to do an e/stop at 40 mph. I have also sat in on pupils tests and on numerous occasions whitnessed an e/stop done at 25 or 30 mph so I am not sure where you have got your information from. :?  I can't speak for everyone else but this is my experience of and the way I teach e/stop.


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#16 06-05-04 20:14:19

Liesa
Guest

Re: Emergency Stop

Couldn't agree more with you when you say the emergency stop should be taught at higher speeds.

When I do teach it, once they've done a couple succesfully, I then go on to get them do an emergency stop, at around 25 - 30 mph. It's not always possible to do this on the same day but, when I recap on it at a later date, I make sure they pick the speed up, before I give them the signal :!:

Around here I have known the emergency stop, to be performed on anything from, a road with speed humps to a national speed limit road. There's even a main bus route (fairly busy road) which is just around the corner from the DTC where the emergency stop is performed on a regular basis.

#17 07-05-04 18:34:44

vince
Guest

Re: Emergency Stop

Hi Liesa, and all,
                Apologies for not replying sooner Liesa, been busy, all I meant was that due to the unusual stopping position in the e-stop, frequently very wide of the kerb, the training vehicle has now become the hazard, and in this particular scenario could easily be undertaken, something which I would not expect following a "normal" stop. So because we have now become the hazard, the sweep check around needs to be initiated and completed quicker (though no less thoroughly) and the car needs to be returned to the "normal" driving position to remove that hazard, thats all, sorry if I didn't make it clear
        take care out there,.,.,.,Vince wink

#18 08-05-04 15:01:20

ivorbro
Guest

Re: Emergency Stop

I always teach Emergency stop early and practice regularly. Also teach at higher speeds 30. Sometimes if possible at 40 if I have the confidence in my pupil and we are in a very quite 40 limit.

#19 09-05-04 09:04:58

Mike Geary
Guest

Re: Emergency Stop

Hi Rince? & Kiesa? & Lev, + all,

When I first teach E-S. I usually want he car in 3rd gear at a speed of 25ish,

as the pupil gets better at the E-S whey go up to around 35ish.

Now, my "micra" does not have ABS. so there is a chance of skidding when learning.

If a Pup does it correctlly every time with no skid(don't happen often)

Then I get them to over brake to create a skid, so they then Learn "how to come off + back on". Plus they then Know what a skid is! + how to correct it.

There is a road, which is very quiote & a 60 limit. Sometimes even has mud on it. Very useful lane. (old Thurcaston rd fr mowacre hill)


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#20 13-05-04 14:30:49

kevdyas
Verified Member
From: Grimsby, England
Registered: 01-05-04
Posts: 240
Website

Re: Emergency Stop

Some cars have 'Emergency Brake Assist' which applies higher braking pressure with use of ABS and as ABS often kicks in before a normal car's wheels would lock-up I think the ABS kicking in would be quite unavoidable unless you pump the brake pedal.

Kevin.


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