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#1 20-06-15 13:17:11

Lady-Hynarc
Verified Member
Registered: 09-04-12
Posts: 650

It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

Chatting to a lady in the chemist this morning and she was telling me about an accident she was unfortunate to have been involved in.  Apparently she was broadsided by a car which failed to give way at a junction and drove into the side of her car at approximately 30mph.  Her passenger was injured and she now suffers on an ongoing basis from the trauma of the accident. The police were called at the time.

This lady has now been told that in spite of numerous witnesses to the accident the police will not be taking any action against the driver of the other car as they had 'done nothing criminal'!  I know it is a while since I was in the police but doesn't driving with due care and attention mean anything any more?  The other driver displayed driving well below the standard expected by any reasonable person and therefore, surely, should be prosecuted!  I guess these days the driver has to do it deliberately...

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20-06-15 13:17:11

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Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!




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#2 20-06-15 14:20:22

CantThinkofaName
Verified Member
Registered: 01-01-12
Posts: 294

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

It seems the police are willing to get involved in less and less, I wonder what their job actually involves any more. I know they are under pressure with budgets and manpower but where is it going to end? I believe it is having a knock on effect in other areas of society and we as ADIs see it everyday even on the roads. If people can get away with incidents like the one you describe then they don't care what happens as there are no consequences.


DKL Driving School Belfast www.drivinglessonsbelfast.co.uk

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#3 20-06-15 15:19:04

Coasting Mart
Verified Member
Registered: 11-06-09
Posts: 967

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

Surely it is criminal as you MUST give way.  At that speed, why not pursue dangerous driving?
I've no idea what the police policy is on stuff like this, but to not follow it up and just (presumably) leave it to insurance is really naff.  hmm


"I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car"

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#4 20-06-15 19:53:18

la.monikita
Verified Member
From: SE LONDON / KENT
Registered: 12-03-05
Posts: 3,064

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

Could she pursue private prosecution?


"What is necessary to change a person is to change his awareness of himself."
Abraham Maslow

21st Century Women http://www.loisontheloose.com/my-advent … /the-team/

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#5 20-06-15 20:15:35

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,302

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

Hi
I have highlighted a couple of instances from the CPS site which should surely have led to a prosecution

The CPS wrote:

What is 'Dangerous driving'?
A person drives dangerously when:

the way they drive falls far below the minimum acceptable standard expected of a competent and careful driver; and
it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous.
Some typical examples from court cases of dangerous driving are:

racing, going too fast, or driving aggressively;
ignoring traffic lights, road signs or warnings from passengers;
overtaking dangerously;
driving under the influence of drink or drugs, including prescription drugs;
driving when unfit, including having an injury, being unable to see clearly, not taking prescribed drugs, or being sleepy;
knowing the vehicle has a dangerous fault or an unsafe load;
the driver being avoidably and dangerously distracted, for example by:
using a hand-held phone or other equipment
reading, or looking at a map
talking to and looking at a passenger
lighting a cigarette, changing a CD or tape, tuning the radio.
What is 'Careless or inconsiderate driving'?
A person drives carelessly or inconsiderately when the way they drive falls below the minimum acceptable standard expected of a competent and careful driver.

Some examples of careless driving are:

overtaking on the inside;
driving too close to another vehicle;
driving through a red light by mistake;
turning into the path of another vehicle;
the driver being avoidably distracted by tuning the radio, lighting a cigarette etc.
Examples of inconsiderate driving include:

flashing lights to force other drivers to give way;
misusing lanes to gain advantage over other drivers;
unnecessarily staying in an overtaking lane;
unnecessarily slow driving or braking;
dazzling other drivers with un-dipped headlights.

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#6 20-06-15 20:28:34

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

Now adays we dont prosecute unless we realy have to 99% of the time we put them on a DAC as they need educating rather than prosecuting, the only time we go after a prosecution if their are any aggravating factors such as serious injury which is life threatning or changing, the more run of the mill sec 3s such as momentarily lapses they go for a course.
This way does not have any effect on liability or how the insurance companies deal with it, after all we dont work for them we do what we feel is right at the time, I would have thought that this is what action would have been offered and 99% of the innocent drivers so to speak say we are not doing anything about it when in fact we have, so perhaps ask them if they have been offered a course first before which hunting as is often the case there are good reasons behind it and CPS do not have a say in minor cases like this.

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#7 20-06-15 21:11:12

Lady-Hynarc
Verified Member
Registered: 09-04-12
Posts: 650

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

Stephen7738 wrote:

Now adays we dont prosecute unless we realy have to 99% of the time we put them on a DAC as they need educating rather than prosecuting, the only time we go after a prosecution if their are any aggravating factors such as serious injury which is life threatning or changing, the more run of the mill sec 3s such as momentarily lapses they go for a course.
This way does not have any effect on liability or how the insurance companies deal with it, after all we dont work for them we do what we feel is right at the time, I would have thought that this is what action would have been offered and 99% of the innocent drivers so to speak say we are not doing anything about it when in fact we have, so perhaps ask them if they have been offered a course first before which hunting as is often the case there are good reasons behind it and CPS do not have a say in minor cases like this.

Thank you for the inside track on this Stephen.  I appreciate what you say but I have to disagree with the policy.  The victim driver now has nightmares and problems hearing due to the explosion of the glass from the passenger window.  The victim passenger has severe whiplash.  The driver concerned does not need educating.  She must understand the concept of giving way - it is a basic requirement of driving.  I don't think it is acceptable to educate people until they kill or seriously injure someone.  This liberal attitude towards driving offences is slowly but surely reducing the level of acceptable driving to a point where anything goes as long as you don't kill someone.  Maybe it's my age but this is just plain wrong!

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#8 20-06-15 21:24:06

la.monikita
Verified Member
From: SE LONDON / KENT
Registered: 12-03-05
Posts: 3,064

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

Lady-Hynarc wrote:
Stephen7738 wrote:

Now adays we dont prosecute unless we realy have to 99% of the time we put them on a DAC as they need educating rather than prosecuting, the only time we go after a prosecution if their are any aggravating factors such as serious injury which is life threatning or changing, the more run of the mill sec 3s such as momentarily lapses they go for a course.
This way does not have any effect on liability or how the insurance companies deal with it, after all we dont work for them we do what we feel is right at the time, I would have thought that this is what action would have been offered and 99% of the innocent drivers so to speak say we are not doing anything about it when in fact we have, so perhaps ask them if they have been offered a course first before which hunting as is often the case there are good reasons behind it and CPS do not have a say in minor cases like this.

Thank you for the inside track on this Stephen.  I appreciate what you say but I have to disagree with the policy.  The victim driver now has nightmares and problems hearing due to the explosion of the glass from the passenger window.  The victim passenger has severe whiplash.  The driver concerned does not need educating.  She must understand the concept of giving way - it is a basic requirement of driving.  I don't think it is acceptable to educate people until they kill or seriously injure someone.  This liberal attitude towards driving offences is slowly but surely reducing the level of acceptable driving to a point where anything goes as long as you don't kill someone.  Maybe it's my age but this is just plain wrong!

I have to agree with Lady-H! We mourn the people who go to war and die, yet they are well aware of the risks involved, but we do nothing to stop people who are hurting others on roads. They are getting away with it. Shall we class ignorance as an acceptable excuse?


"What is necessary to change a person is to change his awareness of himself."
Abraham Maslow

21st Century Women http://www.loisontheloose.com/my-advent … /the-team/

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#9 21-06-15 06:36:25

Coasting Mart
Verified Member
Registered: 11-06-09
Posts: 967

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

It surely wasn't a lack of 'awareness' which needs raising with a course, at a minimum a lack of care in identifying the junction.  If the junction was easily identifiable, then approaching at that speed and not giving way is surely 'dangerous'.
If there's no enforcement then the law becomes just a joke.

"Education" is only of any effect if the person is willing to learn.  I suspect most folk on 'courses' feel like they 'got off' quite easily, just the fact they had to pay for it and 'waste' their time.  Yes, they might be useful to some folk but as we know, changing attitudes is by no means easy.

Luckily I've no experience of serious crashes and a lack of response from the police, or any courses!


"I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car"

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#10 21-06-15 21:09:14

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

I had a similiar attitude to poor driving standards for many years and didn't agree with the courses that were intoduced to stop the courts from being filled with people who had made a mistake and them days the three Es were a big thing.

My philosophy was get them done, but as I got a few years of experience under my belt dealing with minor collisions through to fatalities before any changes in legislation for the loophole driving that exists now.

When you listen to everything that the offending driver says and you look at the scene along with what witnesse's if any say then most of the time I thought what a LOBs and set out to prosecute them, then it suddenly dawned on me no matter how much we prosecute thes drivers for the mistakes made whether it be Due care, mobile phone,seat belt, speed etc. Then what do they learn from it apart from having less money to spend and a licence with points on it.

I thought I have spent 20 years with the IAM and ROSPA trying to make the roads safer and don't do anything positive whilst at work,when in all honesty this is probably the place I ahve got the power to do something.  I put myself on one of the as it was then DIS driver improvement course just to see what I was sending these drivers to do and I must say the only benefit I could see was the classroom session as the on road one in my opinion was a waste of time.

Now, some 20+ years on I send more drivers on educating courses rather than court, as some of you has said the victims suffer too and long term but the fact of the matter no matter what you do with the offending driver the victim will still be suffering no matter what and this is a seperate issue as justice will have been done as they are not getting away with it scot free there is a criteria they have to meet before they are allowed to go on the course and one of the criteria is that they have to accept responsibility for the incident.

And can I say there are a vast amount of ADIs who make a living out of these courses up and down the Country and if they all had the same view as a lot on here then they shouldn't do it perhaps then they  would have to re think what action / options are open to them, my thinking in this is for the minor injury collisions along with the momentarily lapses.  I am still opened minded if anyone can convince me that I should go back to my old ways of thinking then I am open to this.

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#11 23-06-15 07:04:19

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

Over the last 15-20 years, in my opinion there has been a significant drop in driver behaviour towards other road users. More road laws and conventions are being ignored.

Over the same period there has been a virtual abdication of enforcing road regulations by the police. At the same time there has been an increasing reliance on speed cameras as the be all and end all of road safety.

During this period there has been increasing use of driver education course to deal with offences.

You tell me if it's working?

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#12 23-06-15 08:32:21

CantThinkofaName
Verified Member
Registered: 01-01-12
Posts: 294

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

I have a pupil I am teaching at the moment and I  taught her mother 5 or 6 years ago, recently I was discussing with my pupil the reasons for blind spot checks and she replied that her mother said it doesn't matter you can drive whatever way you like after you pass your test. That seems to sum up the attitude of the vast majority of drivers now.


DKL Driving School Belfast www.drivinglessonsbelfast.co.uk

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#13 23-06-15 19:20:30

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

Stephen7738 wrote:

I put myself on one of the as it was then DIS driver improvement course just to see what I was sending these drivers to do and I must say the only benefit I could see was the classroom session as the on road one in my opinion was a waste of time.

Hi Stephen,
Can you expand upon what was beneficial about the classroom session and why the on-road session was a waste of time?
Thanks

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#14 23-06-15 22:39:32

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

The trainers on the session I went on some years ago was focused on what happened to certain drivers on the course along with what could they have done to prevent it along with what causes drivers to behave in the way they do that causes collisions amongst other things.

The on road was have a drive round a couple of questions no input of where they were still going or doing wrong and trying to address issues that were being identified during each individuals drive, like driving too close to parked vehicle's , going into gaps too fast with oncoming vehicle's approaching who have right of way.  Now adays they do not do the drive only the clasroom session I dont know why but if previous experience was anything to go by I could see why.

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#15 24-06-15 07:05:45

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

Stephen7738 wrote:

Now adays they do not do the drive only the clasroom session I dont know why but if previous experience was anything to go by I could see why.

I suspect its all down to cost.

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#16 24-06-15 18:50:21

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

Does anyone know if any research has been done to try and find out if these courses have much or any effect on the drivers who have attended them?

I went to a lecture yesterday given by someone who used to organise courses. Afterwards I asked if there was any evidence that they worked. He replied that there was, when I started to ask how this evidence had been collected he admitted that it hadn't as it was too hard to prove one way or the other the effectiveness of driver education courses! Although this is what I had expected, I had not expected him to, in my opinion, lie about proof of their effectiveness.

I have to say that I used to present speed awareness courses, both the theory and on road courses and just the theory on it's own course but I lost so much faith in them, and became so sick of people not being able to take responsibility for their own actions, I packed in.

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#17 24-06-15 19:56:26

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

Hi Graham,

http://www.driver-improvement.co.uk/res … t_v1_4.pdf

Sometimes you just need to know where to look.

The Driver Alertness Course is under evaluation at the moment and it's too early to evaluate What's Driving Us and Driving 4 Change

This is the direction it's heading.
http://www.polfed.org/documents/11safer … pinall.pdf

The next raft of courses are aimed at 20mph limits and motorways.

The principle is simple. If a driver is safe, ignore. If they require remedial work for a low level offence then retune. If their actions are dangerous, prosecute.

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#18 24-06-15 20:33:10

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

Stephen7738 wrote:

The trainers on the session I went on some years ago was focused on what happened to certain drivers on the course along with what could they have done to prevent it along with what causes drivers to behave in the way they do that causes collisions amongst other things.

The on road was have a drive round a couple of questions no input of where they were still going or doing wrong and trying to address issues that were being identified during each individuals drive, like driving too close to parked vehicle's , going into gaps too fast with oncoming vehicle's approaching who have right of way.  Now adays they do not do the drive only the clasroom session I dont know why but if previous experience was anything to go by I could see why.

Thanks for the reply Stephen. The courses have moved on somewhat since DIS days. I don't know where your information has come from regarding no driving.  Driving takes place the full session after lunch and forms the most important part of the course. All 43 forces are aligned to the Driver Alertness Course and all Service Providers deliver a similar course to each other.
At the end of the classroom session and armed with the information gained from it, the driver writes down 3 areas where he would like to improve or where he believes he is weak. It may include the circumstances of his collision.
He then gives an assessed drive. The trainer at the debrief talks through the areas the driver has chosen and then areas the trainer has observed. It's probable the trainer highlights areas of high risk, which were obviously unknown to the driver and sometimes comes as a shock.This is because they weren't aware that what they were doing was increasing their risk and that of others.

NB. If the only option available was a Court appearance then that identified risk would stay hidden - until the next crash.

They agree a plan and then the training session takes place based on COAST. There is a debrief and a final assessed drive where, (hopefully), the driver puts what he has been shown into practice.
Rome wasn't built in a day and not all ailments will be cured. That is the idea of the course. An Alertness course. Alert the driver to things that can go wrong before they go wrong and deal with them - such as  dealing with like driving too close to parked vehicle's , going into gaps too fast with oncoming vehicle's approaching who have right of way.

The feedback from the courses is extremely positive. The main comment being that having attended and learnt so much - every driver should attend this course before renewal of their licence.

Last edited by trunkmonkey (24-06-15 20:34:20)

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#19 24-06-15 21:06:38

Lady-Hynarc
Verified Member
Registered: 09-04-12
Posts: 650

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

One of the problems I have with reports like this is that the response sample is 31%, higher than they would have expected.  They think this represents a cross-section of the people surveyed.  However, it seems quite likely to me that those who respond are those pre-disposed to respond, i.e., those who enjoyed and found the course beneficial.  Conversely, those who don't give a ***** about how badly they drive aren't going to give a ***** about responding to a survey!  Hence, the statistics prove that the courses are a success even though those that really need to be challenged about their driving just carry on regardless.

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#20 24-06-15 22:51:17

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

I will have to ask to go back on one of these new DAC courses just to compare them from 15yrs ago to present and see if this should be making them more aware.  I was told by one of our Admin staff that the drive was not part of it to date,show you how much they know and they are arranging them daily.

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#21 25-06-15 05:52:17

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,302

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

Hi
The speed awarness courses have dropped the drive.
One way success or otherwise of such courses, without responder bias, is to look at re-offending rates.

I don't know the current situation but back in the NDIS days, say upto 10yrs after the scheme started going national from it's beginnings in Devon and Cornwall; re-offending was reported to be around :-
Fines and Points  70% over 3yrs
NDIS Courses      30% over 7yrs

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#22 25-06-15 10:02:43

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: It may not be criminal but it certainly isn't justice!

trunkmonkey wrote:

Hi Graham,

http://www.driver-improvement.co.uk/res … t_v1_4.pdf

Sometimes you just need to know where to look.

Thanks for this tm. There's a bit reading there!!!

I'm still not sure that this is the correct way to assess the worth of these courses though.

As someone else has commented, are people who want to take the evaluation really the correct people to ask to take it?

I know that the following is probably not the most accurate way to assess worth, but I would be interested to find out how many people who have had a courses have been recorded committing the offence again. When I used to present these courses more and more people on them admitted to having had one before. Obviously their last course had not helped then for very long, if at all. As each course will (I assume?) be recorded against a driver number, I think it would be possible to find out how many reoffenders there are after courses. As I have said, I fully accept that this is probably not the best way to assess the value of the course but let's be honest here, the people who are offered courses are offered them not because they speed, but because they have been caught speeding. Let's find out if they have been caught again and if so, how many times!

P.S. Sorry about the thread hijack!!!

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