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#51 18-04-15 20:17:25

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

trunkmonkey

I agree, this 101 code really over-complicates things that ought to be straight-forward. And that IS my polite way of saying it.

Yes, I am employed as a 'driver'.

Also, what's ABD?

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18-04-15 20:17:25

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Re: D1 101 Help please!



#52 18-04-15 20:32:44

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

I know what it means now! Ha Ha, funny!

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#53 18-04-15 21:22:29

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,656

Re: D1 101 Help please!

trunkmonkey wrote:

The school teacher carrying school pupils is the classic. The teacher is paid to teach but also drives the school minibus on a 101. That is deemed acceptable.

But ironically if the teacher was born after 1980 and passed a car test they are not deemed worthy of driving the school minibus unless they pass a medical and 4 more tests!  tongue


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#54 19-04-15 07:56:20

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101 Help please!

unoriginalusername wrote:

ROG and trunkmonkey

I'll ask again, would you drive it were you in my position? I'm not trying to catch people out, btw.

I've emailed legaladvice@abd.org.uk with my original post, see what they say.

The easiest way for my employer to solve this is to get shot of the minibus, or get agency staff with full D1 and CPC.

But then, do we need O license, as trunkmonkey says....

Does it ever end?!

Yes I would drive it and be perfectly ok I was legal if I had dcpc


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#55 19-04-15 07:58:19

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: D1 101 Help please!

unoriginalusername wrote:

Here's a thought,


In the 'driver c transports farm labourers....' example, WHO is driver c?

If it's the farm owner, who's rented a minibus and is not charging the labourers for a ride, that's fine. Wouldn't even need CPC (?).

If driver c is one of the labourers, being paid by the farmer to drive the minibus, could that be taken as for hire and reward?

Think about it, the farmer is saying "no charge guys, I'll pay the driver"...which means the driver is then getting an indirect payment from the passengers. Which is not allowed under code 101.

I'm being pedantic, but then court cases are quite often decided on pedantic points. Its one of the reasons why legal documentation has odd or missing punctuation, or so I've been told.

Where the minibus comes from or the driver being paid or not has no bearing

It is what the minibus is being used for which is the defining issue


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#56 19-04-15 20:06:09

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: D1 101 Help please!

reddragonbus wrote:
trunkmonkey wrote:

The school teacher carrying school pupils is the classic. The teacher is paid to teach but also drives the school minibus on a 101. That is deemed acceptable.

But ironically if the teacher was born after 1980 and passed a car test they are not deemed worthy of driving the school minibus unless they pass a medical and 4 more tests!  tongue

If you were born after 1st January 1980 therefore having passed your B category test after 1st Jan 1997, (ie no D1 101) you can drive a minibus but with certain restrictions. Must be 21 yrs old and driving for 2 years, not driving commercially/ for profit, restricted to 3.5 tonnes MAM/GVW (or 4.25 tonnes where wheelchair accessible), also you cannot tow a trailer.

Driving a Minibus

Last edited by RobC (19-04-15 20:25:35)


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Midas Minibus Driver Assessor Trainer & Passenger Assistant Trainer
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#57 19-04-15 20:30:39

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,656

Re: D1 101 Help please!

The teacher cannot drive a school minibus on a category B licence, unless it has 8 or less passenger seats.

Being a paid member of staff they would find it hard to argue that driving the vehicle is not part of their paid employment.


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#58 19-04-15 20:46:24

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: D1 101 Help please!

reddragonbus wrote:

The teacher cannot drive a school minibus on a category B licence, unless it has 8 or less passenger seats.

Being a paid member of staff they would find it hard to argue that driving the vehicle is not part of their paid employment.


Not true they can drive a school minibus on a B category licence subject to the restrictions I stated. A vehicle with 8 or less passenger seats isn't classed as a minibus but rather a car or MPV. A minibus by definition is 9 to 16 passenger seats.

I have completed training courses for hundreds of teachers with B licences in school minibuses (9 to 16 passenger seats) and there are many thousands of B category teachers legally driving school minibuses in the UK. Please read the link to Gov.uk Driving a Minibus

Rog is right in his last post, its the use of the minibus that defines 'hire or reward' not whether the driver is paid. Also defined in the Gov.uk link above.

Last edited by RobC (19-04-15 21:14:38)


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#59 19-04-15 23:15:17

Fulton
Member
Registered: 19-02-15
Posts: 27

Re: D1 101 Help please!

RobC wrote:
reddragonbus wrote:

The teacher cannot drive a school minibus on a category B licence, unless it has 8 or less passenger seats.

Being a paid member of staff they would find it hard to argue that driving the vehicle is not part of their paid employment.


Rog is right in his last post, its the use of the minibus that defines 'hire or reward' not whether the driver is paid. Also defined in the Gov.uk link above.

You may be able to drive a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats using your current car driving licence as long as it’s not for ‘hire or reward’ - there’s no payment from or on behalf of the passengers....

A teacher is paid on behalf of a Local authority or perhaps a private school which would be on behalf of the passengers, isn't that what the link above states... On behalf of Passengers ? smile

Last edited by Fulton (19-04-15 23:17:21)

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#60 20-04-15 06:02:34

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Fulton wrote:
RobC wrote:
reddragonbus wrote:

The teacher cannot drive a school minibus on a category B licence, unless it has 8 or less passenger seats.

Being a paid member of staff they would find it hard to argue that driving the vehicle is not part of their paid employment.


Rog is right in his last post, its the use of the minibus that defines 'hire or reward' not whether the driver is paid. Also defined in the Gov.uk link above.

You may be able to drive a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats using your current car driving licence as long as it’s not for ‘hire or reward’ - there’s no payment from or on behalf of the passengers....

A teacher is paid on behalf of a Local authority or perhaps a private school which would be on behalf of the passengers, isn't that what the link above states... On behalf of Passengers ? smile

Minibuses Non-commercial schools and educational bodies

If you volunteer ie are an incidental driver (paid as a teacher not a driver) to drive a school minibus you must, by law ensure a Section 19 permit has been obtained if fares are taken ie 'hire or reward'
Drivers who hold a category D1 driving licence can drive minibuses over 3500kgs in gross vehicle weight with up to 16 passengers as long as they are not employed to drive a minibus directly. ie. they undertake incidental driving.

The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999 allow a school to use drivers/teachers who only hold a category B driving licence and have not passed a D1 (minibus) driving test for incidental driving under the following conditions:

• the driver has held a category B driving licence for at least 2 years;
• the driver is over 21 years of age;
• if the driver is 70 or over, is able to meet the health standards for driving a D1 vehicle;
• a non-commercial body is using the minibus being driven for social or curriculum purposes;
• the driver provides his/her services and receives no consideration for doing so, other than out of pocket expenses.
  (A teacher is an incidental minibus driver and paid and employed as a teacher and not a minibus driver).
• the minibus has up to 16 passenger seats; and,
• the minibus is up to 3500kgs (3.5 tonnes) in weight, 4250 kgs (4.25 tonnes) where the minibus has been adapted to carry wheelchair passengers.

Minibus passengers - Schools and educational establishments as commercial bodies

Bodies that are deemed to be commercial, eg. independent schools which lack charitable status are normally only allowed to use category D1 drivers to drive their minibuses. The interpretation of the establishments' status will be the deciding factor. Some private schools having private business status, operate their minibuses on a commercial operator's (PCV) licence. In these circumstances, a driver would not be permitted to drive the minibuses on a standard B car licence. Current opinion is that the driving of students in minibuses for non-social purposes such as fare paying field trips is likely to be viewed by a court of law as being for 'hire and reward'. If the minibus is to be used for 'Hire and Reward', then a Passenger Carrying Vehicle (PCV) - Category D Licence is generally required.

Driving a school minibus and charging pupils / Section 19 Permits

Generally, schools making a charge on a non-profit basis operate minibuses under a section 19 permit, allowing them to collect fares and contributions from pupils on a not-for-profit basis. This permit also allows certain drivers with standard B car licences to drive these minibus under these conditions.

Minibus and Community Bus Permits (Section 19 permits) are issued to organisations concerned with education, social welfare or other activities of benefit to the community. They allow certain organisations, including schools, to make a charge without having to comply with the full public service vehicle operator requirements and without the need for the driver to have a PCV (Category D1 or D) entitlement.

Certain organisations can apply for a Minibus Permit, (Section 19 -Transport Act 1985) for Minibuses ie vehicles that can carry between nine and sixteen passengers. The Permit allows organisations like volunteer groups concerned with education, religion, social welfare, recreations and other activities that are beneficial to the community to make a charge without having to comply with the full passenger carrying vehicle entitlement (PCV) operator licensing requirements and without the need for their drivers to have PCV entitlement.

Many community transport organisations and charities now operate minibuses under a section 19 permit which, allows for the service provided to be for the organisations’ own members or for groups of people whom the organisation serves. Such organisations can charge or accept a form of remuneration for providing transport at a level to recover some or all of the costs of running the vehicle, and may even include an allowance for vehicle depreciation but the service must not be provided to members of the general public and the charges made must be on a non-profit basis. This non-profit requirement extends to cover any direct costs connected with a particular trip such as expenses incurred by volunteers, but not the wages of any staff involved.

A driver of a Section 19 permit minibus can either be paid or an unpaid volunteer.

It should be noted however, that volunteer minibus drivers who passed their car driving test after 1st January 1997 and have a B category licence are restricted to drive minibuses which weigh no more that 3500kgs gross vehicle weight. (or 4250kgs adapted)

NB. Schools must hold a ‘Section 19 permit’ if minibus journeys are funded to any extent by outside sources such as parents or parent teacher associations. Schools and educational establishments who do not charge their pupils do not normally need a section 19 permit however many obtain them as they are inexpensive.

Some more info in driving a school minibus Here

Last edited by RobC (20-04-15 11:49:24)


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#61 27-04-15 20:25:49

unoriginalusername
Member
Registered: 10-04-15
Posts: 21

Re: D1 101 Help please!

Thanks RobC, some good, useful knowledge there.

If anyone is interested, I have now read the signage at the entry points to the airport (I'm not going to name it, sorry), it would seem that ROG's post #9 could well be along the right lines. It's all probably a bit of a grey area (!), if I ever get to the bottom of it, I will let you know. I will try!

Last edited by unoriginalusername (27-04-15 20:32:47)

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