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#1 01-01-15 20:15:35

Triplea35
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-12
Posts: 508

Use of 'Shields' on test.

Had a pupil a couple of weeks ago fail: Junctions/observation, when he attempted to use a bus turning right as a shield when he was turning left at a roundabout, early in the test. His only other fault was a driver fault before this for a nervous stall when leaving the TC. Normally a very competent and progressive driver but very nervous leading upto test.

I didn't sit in, but the examiner gave quite a detailed debrief  explaining how the bus was a smaller 16/20 seater community bus and got away quite quickly compared to my pupil which left him badly exposed to a car from the right. Pupil had no issue with the fail.

The only other time I can recall such an incident on test was a few years ago when I  sat in and a pupil tried to use a lwb Transit with a similar result which caused me some 'alarm' sat in the back but on that occasion the candidate only got a driver fault. I accept no circumstances are the same.

Fortunately, the pupil took his test again the other day and had a nice pass. Whilst he was out on test I was discussing his previous fail with another instructor who was quite adamant that he teaches/insists on 'Can't see/Can't go' Whether this was during general driving or for test we didn't go into detail.

I knows its only my first fail for this but it has really got me pondering. Since the first occasion it happened I feel I have put considerable emphasis on the appropriateness of the shield being used. In both cases the shield wasn't appropriate, but also got to consider with nerves on test the pupil may be slower off the mark than normal or indeed stall into the junction.

Sorry for rambling but basically Would/or do you give different advice for test?

Last edited by Triplea35 (01-01-15 20:20:28)

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01-01-15 20:15:35

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Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.




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#2 01-01-15 20:31:13

kaf
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From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
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Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

General rule, can't see can't go.

When can that rule be modified?
Only when you can be sure, with absolute certainty, that no other vehicle could possibly get to the bit of road you intend to use whilst you still occupy it.

If there is even a one percent chance of another vehicle getting to you, then rule number one applies.

In real terms, they only go when shielded by a large lorry,,or full sized bus. Even then, if they are slow off the mark, it might not be safe.
Same rule on test. If it's safe, then it's ok on test.

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#3 01-01-15 21:34:24

MGM
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From: Surrey
Registered: 24-10-11
Posts: 861

Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

Why would you advise anyone to drive differently on test to what they would do otherwise?

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#4 02-01-15 07:06:41

kaf
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From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
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Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

Generally you wouldn't need to,,but there are certain things that examiners see differently.

I have had faults marked for no signal on a turn where there was a marked lane and no benefit to anyone by signalling.
Moving off at a zebra before the pedestrian has reached the pavement is gambling that the examiner will agree with your assesmemt of safety.
There are so many subjective areas in the test that at times you just need to ensure that your reduce the room for misunderstanding.

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#5 02-01-15 08:21:04

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,302

Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

Hi

Triplea35 wrote:

 

I didn't sit in, but the examiner gave quite a detailed debrief  explaining how the bus was a smaller 16/20 seater community bus and got away quite quickly compared to my pupil which left him badly exposed to a car from the right. Pupil had no issue with the fail.

The only other time I can recall such an incident on test was a few years ago when I  sat in and a pupil tried to use a lwb Transit with a similar result which caused me some 'alarm' sat in the back but on that occasion the candidate only got a driver fault. I accept no circumstances are the same.

Since the first occasion it happened I feel I have put considerable emphasis on the appropriateness of the shield being used. In both cases the shield wasn't appropriate, but also got to consider with nerves on test the pupil may be slower off the mark than normal or indeed stall into the junction.

Sorry for rambling but basically Would/or do you give different advice for test?

I find it encouraging that the examiner didn't say that using a shield was wrong; not so long ago DSA might well have been giving different advice.; he did explain, as I am sure you do that the size of the shield matters and so does it's speed/acceleration.
I always told my pupils that it was important to stay alongside the front portion of the shield (eg the tractor unit of an artic) until you are far enough onto the R/bt to be able to start accelerating away in front of it (usually the point where you have cleared the first exit if going ahead, or entered the first road if that is where you are going)

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#6 02-01-15 14:54:40

TomADI
Member
Registered: 02-01-15
Posts: 1

Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

The way I view it is, if I can't see what is on the junction then to use a shield is to pass the responsibility for my safety and that of my passengers onto another driver. I will not be privy to the thought process of the other driver and as such unaware as to whether or not their judgement comes with or without risk. However, if the vehicle is large enough and likely to create enough of a safety zone for me then it is not important that I can see into the junction only that the timing of my action should be to ensure that there is no possibility of another vehicle passing my shield and entering into my path.

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#7 02-01-15 17:24:24

martin Williams
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Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

I had a pupil fail when using a shield. The pupil was told there was a possibility however small that the bus may have made a bad judgment and may be forced over to the left lane. The example he gave is that there could be a motor bike coming round quick which the driver never saw. The examiner made it absolutely clear if you can not see you don't go.

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#8 02-01-15 22:45:04

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,695
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Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

My thinking is the same as TomADI's.


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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#9 03-01-15 07:19:05

robcooling
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From: Nottingham
Registered: 02-04-09
Posts: 1,451
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Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

I had a pupil once use a large bus as a shield (lesson not test), it was a pretty big shield. It all went wrong! Bus stopped halfway out onto roundabout as it had made a poor decision, we had to stop too as we couldn't see what it had stopped for. So now I work (99%) on a basis of pure 'cant see don't go' or not using shields.


Rob

http://www.appledriving.co.uk - Driving Lessons in Nottingham

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#10 03-01-15 15:50:46

michaelat50
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From: lancing
Registered: 25-04-08
Posts: 70

Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

Cant see dont go why rely on other drivers making the right decision that what i teach and use in my day to day driving
Michael

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#11 06-01-15 09:43:47

Triplea35
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-12
Posts: 508

Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

Thanks for the responses, from them it is clear that there is quite a difference of opinion on the use of them, be it from instructors and some DE's.

I teach it pretty much as Kaf describes, with the examples of long full size bus and large HGV's,(perhaps I'll put a bit more emphasis on the size of the bus! smile )

In honesty I can't imagine not teaching their use. In todays environment I think they are essential for progressive driving.

I find your fail Martin Williams very interesting. Where you present? Did the candidate leave himself exposed at all, possibly to the front of the shield by setting off too fast?

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#12 06-01-15 13:58:28

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

Triplea35 wrote:

I find your fail Martin Williams very interesting. Where you present? Did the candidate leave himself exposed at all, possibly to the front of the shield by setting off too fast?

Yes I was sat in the back.

Pupil never got in front of the shield but was along side for some time but did not stray out of her lane. I certainly would have pulled out in the same situation but a bit quicker so not to be along side for longer than necessary. Not that coming out quicker would have effected the DE marking of the situation so I also would have failed.  sad

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#13 06-01-15 21:59:38

MAZ
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From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 838

Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

The OP's pupil was going LEFT and that is vastly different than going straight ahead, because even if the "shield" was a Centurian Tank, going straight you would travel alongside it for quite some distance, but going left you are exposed in a matter of seconds to any fast vehicles coming from the right and you have just planted your vehicle straight into its path, the Centurian Tank long gone.
So many drivers make this same misconception when going left.

Maz.

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#14 07-01-15 10:08:43

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,695
Website

Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

MAZ wrote:

The OP's pupil was going LEFT and that is vastly different than going straight ahead, because even if the "shield" was a Centurian Tank, going straight you would travel alongside it for quite some distance, but going left you are exposed in a matter of seconds to any fast vehicles coming from the right and you have just planted your vehicle straight into its path, the Centurian Tank long gone.
So many drivers make this same misconception when going left. ...

This is why I don't advocate using a shield as a general rule.

E.g. the shield is turning right, we are turning left.
The shield is in a "meeting & crossing" give-way situation, whereas we are in a "meeting & joining" situation.
As Maz says, when the shield is gone you are left exposed, unless the shield is very long (e.g. an artic) and entering the intersection fairly slowly.
I don't trust any of my students, who often pass the test after very few lessons, to make this distinction when driving by themselves,


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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#15 07-01-15 20:37:38

Coasting Mart
Verified Member
Registered: 11-06-09
Posts: 967

Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

As ever it's one of those 'depends' situations!
How big is the shield (I prefer blocker myself)?
Where are you going? Where's the block going?
How big is the RAB?
How fast/slow are you going to go?
How fast/slow is the block going to go?
etc etc.
Will it successfully shield/block you from what might be coming round for as long as you need?
I certainly wouldn't use a small van, or even a large van. A big bus or truck is usually fine, depending on the RAB and the situation etc.
Ah, driving - if only there were some black and white certainties!!  cool


"I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car"

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#16 04-02-15 08:14:14

Angus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 25-01-15
Posts: 18
Website

Re: Use of 'Shields' on test.

I have never had a problem with it, but was once lectured by another instructor that having someone go beside a big bus or lorry would be an instant fail. It got me a bit worried so I spoke to the examiner and they said exactly as we think, it would be seen as good driving practice! I now don't mention it to pupils as much and the ones that work it out are usually on the ball enough that they do keep pace and stay in a safe place.

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