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#1 22-11-14 18:58:21

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

A legal puzzler - trailer training

It is not a legal requirement for those teaching B+E to be an ADI - most of us know that

A B+E test can be taken in a B towing combination such as a 4x4 Skoda Octavia (GVW 1998) towing a box trailer weighing 500 empty and plated at 1500 MAM loaded with 600 kg of sand bags

L plates would only need displaying for the test

Now here comes the puzzler .... Can a B only licence holder set themselves up with the above combination as a business to train other B drivers for the B+E test without being an ADI?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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22-11-14 18:58:21

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Re: A legal puzzler - trailer training




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#2 22-11-14 19:21:31

Coasting Mart
Verified Member
Registered: 11-06-09
Posts: 967

Re: A legal puzzler - trailer training

Yes!  wink

And lots of folk no doubt do train friends and family, especially in the farming community.

The main reasons for choosing an ADI or other 'professional' is:
They have a trailer (!)
They have the specialist knowledge about what's involved in the test
They should increase your chances of passing an expensive test.
They may even be better at teaching you than a relation!  cool


"I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car"

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#3 23-11-14 11:56:21

Daveyboy
Verified Member
From: Nr Alford, Lincolnshire
Registered: 25-01-09
Posts: 377

Re: A legal puzzler - trailer training

The vast majority that fail on B+E, is for their on road driving, this is where being an ADI is advantageous for a pupil.

Some of the National Associations have for some years wanted a change in legislation so B+E is included. The current legislation goes back to 1988 which is before the regs changed with regards to B+E in 1997.

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#4 23-11-14 13:59:23

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: A legal puzzler - trailer training

The legal bit is being overlooked still ....

With the set up in the first post we have a B only driver teaching a B only driver with a B set up albeit with a view to passing a B+E test

IS THAT LEGAL?

If a B driver was to teach another B driver for payment using the same vehicle without the trailer would that need an ADI?

If the answer is yes to the latter then what makes it different to the first as its under the same B category?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#5 23-11-14 20:17:04

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: A legal puzzler - trailer training

(ROG) wrote:

The legal bit is being overlooked still ....

With the set up in the first post we have a B only driver teaching a B only driver with a B set up albeit with a view to passing a B+E test

IS THAT LEGAL?

If a B driver was to teach another B driver for payment using the same vehicle without the trailer would that need an ADI?

If the answer is yes to the latter then what makes it different to the first as its under the same B category?

What do you think is the answer(s)?

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#6 23-11-14 20:50:44

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: A legal puzzler - trailer training

If I knew the answer I would not be asking


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#7 24-11-14 07:35:50

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: A legal puzzler - trailer training

You ask the same question on average every 3 months smile
You get the same answers smile

Look at what the law says on driving instruction for payment and in particular what vehicle it applies to. Don't read any deeper into what the sentence says. It is black and white. It doesn't refer to categories or sub-categories, nor should you.

Then look further into the Act and you will see an abridged definition for that vehicle. Further on you will find the complete definition. Don't read any deeper into definitions than that.

Then tell me where either of those sections make reference to a trailer.

If they do, then that is an area worth looking into.

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#8 24-11-14 08:48:43

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: A legal puzzler - trailer training

This is a totally different scenario

The rules seem to state category B which is what the set up is


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#9 24-11-14 09:05:05

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: A legal puzzler - trailer training

I got hold of DVSA standards and they are having a good head scratch over this one


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#10 24-11-14 09:11:44

Daveyboy
Verified Member
From: Nr Alford, Lincolnshire
Registered: 25-01-09
Posts: 377

Re: A legal puzzler - trailer training

DVSA Standards are not part of any legislation so are a waste of time if you are looking for a definitive answer.

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#11 24-11-14 13:41:12

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: A legal puzzler - trailer training

Under current legislation which they quoted to me they stated that being an ADI to teach B+E is not needed but were unsure if the rules allowed a non B+E driver to teach for the B+E test if they used a B set up

In all other cases the driver teaching has the licence for which they are teaching and this one SEEMS to be a loophole in the rules - their statement not mine


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#12 24-11-14 14:05:45

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: A legal puzzler - trailer training

(ROG) wrote:

This is a totally different scenario

The rules seem to state category B which is what the set up is

Rog,

I was at the Test Centre a few weeks ago and waiting to go on after my driver was a Vauxhall Astra estate with a single axle trailer. I would have said that a 'B category' was sufficient to drive this. A 'B category' was sufficient to instruct. The Ex came out, a brief chat and then he went on a B+E test.

I am answering the final part as to whether with or without a trailer you need to be an ADI to deliver paid instruction.

I suggested that you DON'T look at categories.

Forget the DVSA and look at the Road Traffic Act.  Sec 123 relates to delivering paid instruction in a motor car, nothing else matters.
Not category B or B+E, not a car and trailer - just a motor car.

Had the Act wanted to, it would have included a motor car with a trailer attached, the combined weight of which does not exceed 3500kgs. It doesn't say that, nor does it make any reference to a trailer.

You must separate categories, which normally fall into Drivng Licence Regs, from Instruction which falls into the RTA.
They aren't connected.

Paid instruction - Motor Car only.

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#13 24-11-14 18:28:41

Daveyboy
Verified Member
From: Nr Alford, Lincolnshire
Registered: 25-01-09
Posts: 377

Re: A legal puzzler - trailer training

The RTA is from 1988 and the change to the regulations with regards to trailers came in 1997, this is where the confusion comes from.

The legislation should have been up dated, but hasn't.

We can't do anything with regards to licences or categories as it is a matter for the EU.

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