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#1 16-05-14 17:15:49

paulweller84
Member
Registered: 20-09-13
Posts: 14

Examiner Right or Wrong?

Screen_Shot_2014_05_16_at_17_49_09.png

Take a look at this junction. Imagine you are driving a long wheelbase 18t rigid vehicle and you are approaching the lights to turn right, having never been there before. Assessing the junction you can see that the two lanes in front of you are relatively narrow for a HGV, but just about wide enough to fit in. Also you notice a island in the centre of the road to the right where you intend to turn. You have two options;

1. Position yourself entirely in the right hand lane

Pros - You can make the right turn without affecting traffic turning left.
Cons - Until you have reached the traffic lights you cannot be 100% sure that the turn is achievable from the right lane, therefore carrying the risk of being in a position where you cannot make the turn without taking a reverse shunt.

2. Position across both lanes

Pros - 100% confidence you will be able to make the turn without any problems.
Cons - When the left filter light goes green (which it does first), you hold up the traffic turning left.

Obviously both options have their pitfalls, but in my eyes as a professional driver I feel it is more important to set yourself up correctly for the turn so you can be 100% confident of making it successfully. You would cause more of an issue getting wedged between the island and the kerb railings than you would by holding back traffic in the left lane for approximately 30 seconds (which is basically how long it is until the right filter light goes green).

It may not be clear from the photograph but approaching the junction it is very hard to see the available space and you would have to commit yourself to one of the above options well before arriving at the lights. It is quite apparent as you approach however, that the junction is not excessively large and there may be a chance the right turn could be very tight.

In fact, the turn can be done in the right hand lane, although it is incredibly tight (approx 9 inches between wheels and railings both sides!) but I only know this due to local knowledge.

The big question then, should a driving examiner expect a learner driver who has never been to this junction before, to blindly go for the right lane hoping the turn can be made, or think cautiously and approach in the centre of the lanes at the expense of the left turning drivers, but demonstrating excellent forward planning in case the turn is too tight for the vehicle? A trainee of mine failed for being cautious and leaving 1/3 of the vehicle in the left lane, holding up left turning traffic for 30 seconds. I argued he had demonstrated great forward planning by avoiding a potential situation where he may have been be forced to reverse with traffic behind, had the turn indeed been too tight.

Discuss  big_smile

Last edited by paulweller84 (16-05-14 18:23:17)

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16-05-14 17:15:49

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Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?



#2 16-05-14 18:34:47

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,653

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

Or he doesn't know how big his vehicle is.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#3 16-05-14 18:36:24

paulweller84
Member
Registered: 20-09-13
Posts: 14

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

reddragonbus wrote:

Or he doesn't know how big his vehicle is.

Could you explain your comment a little? I don't know what you're referring to without the context. Thanks

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#4 16-05-14 18:41:26

paulweller84
Member
Registered: 20-09-13
Posts: 14

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

Another way of looking at it is, had that been a normal T-junction, or one where both directions lights' went green at the same time, there would be no issue. The type of traffic light controls on a junction should not have any effect on the drivers' positioning of his vehicle

Last edited by paulweller84 (16-05-14 18:42:05)

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#5 16-05-14 19:20:02

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

Me = ex LGV instructor

Looking at the approach pic I would position hard to right then go forward as far as possible before turning wheel to right - knowing the how much steering lock you have available is key to this


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#6 16-05-14 19:25:45

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

If you think more room is needed then hold back if not already behind others then when a gap appears in left lane use part of that to extend the arc of the turn


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#7 16-05-14 19:30:09

paulweller84
Member
Registered: 20-09-13
Posts: 14

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

(ROG) wrote:

Me = ex LGV instructor

Looking at the approach pic I would position hard to right then go forward as far as possible before turning wheel to right - knowing the how much steering lock you have available is key to this

This is true, but as I said above, when you get this right it leaves very little room for error. Due to this, it appears from first glance as you approach that isn't possible to do it from the right lane only. Obviously what you've described is the method if you already know it can be done from the right i.e. you've done the turn before

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#8 16-05-14 19:31:18

paulweller84
Member
Registered: 20-09-13
Posts: 14

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

(ROG) wrote:

If you think more room is needed then hold back if not already behind others then when a gap appears in left lane use part of that to extend the arc of the turn

The problem with this reasoning is when the right turn green light shows, the traffic in the left lane is also moving forward making it impossible to move across to widen the arc. Unless you are lucky enough to get a gap on the left you hold all the traffic back in your lane instead!

Last edited by paulweller84 (16-05-14 19:33:22)

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#9 16-05-14 19:32:19

Mentor
Verified Member
Registered: 22-10-05
Posts: 375

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

(ROG) wrote:

If you think more room is needed then hold back if not already behind others then when a gap appears in left lane use part of that to extend the arc of the turn

That's what I would have done in that situation. smile

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#10 16-05-14 19:35:03

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

I`m hedging bets here.
Golden Rule 1. Always position for safety. I would approach and take up both lanes with an offside indication.

Does and should the Ex take note of vehicle size. Yes, a C1 would only need one lane, but an artic, your rigid?

Next,can that vehicle SAFELY make the turn from lane 2. You don't think so. I'll accept your opinion. You're the trainer. What do other trainers at the TC say/do?

Another (braver) option. Approach in offside lane. Hold back from stop line and tell ex you are waiting for filter lane to clear to use some of that lane for the turn. Only works of course if the filter lane clears. Good forward planning?

I think your man has been unfortunate. However, armed with his decision, what will you do next time?

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#11 16-05-14 19:38:21

paulweller84
Member
Registered: 20-09-13
Posts: 14

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

The TC have backed me and the trainee to the hilt, and stated they would also suggest this method as the best of a bad bunch of options - it's not ideal whichever way you do it! The person giving me this advice has been an ADI and LGV, Bus, Bike instructor for 32 years. I was just wondering what others thought

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#12 16-05-14 19:39:54

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

Dam*
I always take too long to type on a kindle!

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#13 16-05-14 19:40:46

paulweller84
Member
Registered: 20-09-13
Posts: 14

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

Part of my argument here is that had we been using an artic with a 45 foot trailer, we would inevitably needed to take up at least part of the left lane. I pointed out that if it was OK in an artic, how can they say no a rigid? Granted it is obviously shorter, but although every driver knows the exact length of his/her vehicle, the unknown figure is still the size of the junction when deciding which lane position to use.

It's slightly unfair and inconsistent to change the rules based on the vehicle. What length is the cutoff for using the right lane only? As these figures are unknown while approaching, I think he did the right thing

Last edited by paulweller84 (16-05-14 19:42:49)

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#14 16-05-14 20:27:36

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,653

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

Would it be acceptable to straddle the two lanes with a car and trailer? What about a minibus? Car?

A rigid lorry is not an artic. If you sat a B+E test taking up the space required to go around corners with a 44 tonner then you would not pass. One of my candidates tried that 3 weeks ago!

All driving tests are marked based on the perspective of the examiner, if the examiner feels the candidate is taking up the wrong road position then they will record a fault.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#15 16-05-14 20:29:05

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

If the arctic has to cover both lanes so be it. If it delays a motorist waiting to turn left so what? The lorry has to turn and as such needs all the space it can use. If it keeps in the right but holds back and cannot swing to the left before turning right before lights change back to red then he has wasted more time than if he straddles both lanes and holds back in order to move further left then right. We have to share the road with other road users. We don't have a divine right to go when our light turns green.

And I'm not an HGV driver. This, as a motorist, would be perfectly acceptable delay if I was waiting to turn left.


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#16 16-05-14 20:54:54

paulweller84
Member
Registered: 20-09-13
Posts: 14

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

reddragonbus wrote:

Would it be acceptable to straddle the two lanes with a car and trailer? What about a minibus? Car?

A rigid lorry is not an artic. If you sat a B+E test taking up the space required to go around corners with a 44 tonner then you would not pass. One of my candidates tried that 3 weeks ago!

The difference in that example though is the difference between an artic and a rigid is much less than between an artic and a B+E. The B+E I would expect to position the same as a car, as it uses approximately the same space on the road and in turns

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#17 16-05-14 20:56:09

paulweller84
Member
Registered: 20-09-13
Posts: 14

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

AUTAX wrote:

If the arctic has to cover both lanes so be it. If it delays a motorist waiting to turn left so what? The lorry has to turn and as such needs all the space it can use. If it keeps in the right but holds back and cannot swing to the left before turning right before lights change back to red then he has wasted more time than if he straddles both lanes and holds back in order to move further left then right. We have to share the road with other road users. We don't have a divine right to go when our light turns green.

And I'm not an HGV driver. This, as a motorist, would be perfectly acceptable delay if I was waiting to turn left.

And this is exactly the type of attitude that should be taken by other road users. You may sometimes have to wait 30 seconds to allow a large vehicle to make a safe manouvre

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#18 16-05-14 20:58:41

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,653

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

paulweller84 wrote:
reddragonbus wrote:

Would it be acceptable to straddle the two lanes with a car and trailer? What about a minibus? Car?

A rigid lorry is not an artic. If you sat a B+E test taking up the space required to go around corners with a 44 tonner then you would not pass. One of my candidates tried that 3 weeks ago!

The difference in that example though is the difference between an artic and a rigid is much less than between an artic and a B+E. The B+E I would expect to position the same as a car, as it uses approximately the same space on the road and in turns

You can get a B+E combination which is bigger than a cat C, someone brought up a C1 which was bigger than the cat C sat behind it!

Not all cat C's are the same! Some round here are like tonka toys.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#19 17-05-14 07:10:50

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

paulweller84 wrote:
(ROG) wrote:

If you think more room is needed then hold back if not already behind others then when a gap appears in left lane use part of that to extend the arc of the turn

The problem with this reasoning is when the right turn green light shows, the traffic in the left lane is also moving forward making it impossible to move across to widen the arc. Unless you are lucky enough to get a gap on the left you hold all the traffic back in your lane instead!

If you end up holding up traffic in order to make a safe turn then so be it - better that than getting stuck and REALLY holding up traffic as well as causing an obstruction - the examiner cannot fault a candidate for doing the safest option


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#20 18-05-14 17:21:52

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

(ROG) wrote:

...
the examiner cannot fault a candidate for doing the safest option

Of course they can!

Driving is about creating a balance between what is safe and what is reasonable.

If one driver does something that they personally feel is the "safest option", like driving along at a very slow speed, or unnecessarily blocking the road when it is reasonable to go much faster or hold a different position, an examiner could fault that.

Different people see different things as the safest option, is everyone right?

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#21 19-05-14 07:57:29

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

ratty wrote:
(ROG) wrote:

...
the examiner cannot fault a candidate for doing the safest option

Of course they can!

Driving is about creating a balance between what is safe and what is reasonable.

If one driver does something that they personally feel is the "safest option", like driving along at a very slow speed, or unnecessarily blocking the road when it is reasonable to go much faster or hold a different position, an examiner could fault that.

Different people see different things as the safest option, is everyone right?

If its unreasonable then that would be a fault


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#22 19-05-14 08:30:03

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Examiner Right or Wrong?

paulweller84 wrote:

In fact, the turn can be done in the right hand lane, although it is incredibly tight (approx 9 inches between wheels and railings both sides!) but I only know this due to local knowledge.

The big question then, should a driving examiner expect a learner driver who has never been to this junction before, to blindly go for the right lane hoping the turn can be made, or think cautiously and approach in the centre of the lanes at the expense of the left turning drivers, but demonstrating excellent forward planning in case the turn is too tight for the vehicle? A trainee of mine failed for being cautious and leaving 1/3 of the vehicle in the left lane, holding up left turning traffic for 30 seconds. I argued he had demonstrated great forward planning by avoiding a potential situation where he may have been be forced to reverse with traffic behind, had the turn indeed been too tight.

Discuss  big_smile

If the examiner knows, as you yourself have said, that the turn can be done from the right hand lane then the ex probably expects the candidate to do that.

Maybe the problem is that you are thinking of the candidate as a 'learner' when the ex is looking for a competent driver. Your 'learner' might be given the keys to a new lorry tomorrow with the expectation that they are a safe and competent driver not a learner. Someone who is taking their HGV test should already be an experienced driver, not a learner.

As ROG has said, if it is reasonable for a driver to make the turn using lane 2, I would expect someone unnecessarily using two lanes to be marked down.

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