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#51 13-10-13 05:31:41

sofasurfer
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: 30-07-13
Posts: 310

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

When I was on a pink ticket (for over 5 months) my performance was better than some of my colleagues at the same branch who had been instructors for years. I was desperately trying to do things by the book. I had extra training every week, loads of pupils and passed part iii first time. The pupils I was teaching got a good deal.

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13-10-13 05:31:41

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Re: Cannot Afford to Work




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#52 13-10-13 06:25:53

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

The pink is not a licence to earn a living, that is what the green one is all about.   It allows a fee to be charged whilst practising so that the trainee can cover expenses, which does not mean signing up to a franchise contract.

Maz wrote:

Why complain about a business model that over the years has helped to keep the price of lessons as high as posible, and as they, even at their best only had 2% of the market (no competition whatsoever to a good ADI) it's a small price to pay. The alternative, no trainee licence, B$M having to change their business model to match the 5 for 59's, what will that do to the future of this job?

As Itaintmeyouknow has stated,  the training companies mislead, rip off the public by the way they are allowed to advertise.   BSM has done it for many years at one stage stating their trainees were professional, and now Red has taken over.  By doing this they can charge the trainee enormous franchise fees, which is of course where they make the money.  The  actual training is just a convenient sideline.

The system has shown that it does not work because less than a third actually get a green badge. And of those who do some don't last long enough to renew their licence.   So while these companies rake in thousands it is failing the public and also failing to improve current standards.
Any attempt to improve driver training needs to start at the very beginning, so that in the future the quality of new entrants will be better and an improvement in  training standards will follow.

Our profession is often compared to others, so lets follow their path.  Do  trainee doctors, solicitors, police etc earn the same as their fully qualified colleagues?  Earning a living from teaching a life skill as important as driving safely should be the reserve of those who have proven ability to do it.

Perhaps when we stop ripping them off the profession may finally gain some credibility and respect with the public.

Maz wrote:

Why complain about a business model that over the years has helped to keep the price of lessons as high as posible

Take a look on Red's website, lessons for less than a tenner.   

There is an alternative, which is what is currently being discussed at DSA.   The training companies don't think much of it for very obvious reasons, but it would be a  start to ensure that only those who are actually keen and interested in teaching, rather than just wanting to earn 30k would even start training,  which would result in a better quality teacher.

Last edited by Roadmaster (13-10-13 06:30:02)

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#53 13-10-13 07:02:02

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

Totally agree RM and the ability to be able to comprehensively teach and explain and not just learn a set of PSTs.


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#54 13-10-13 07:25:59

brod
Banned
Registered: 20-03-13
Posts: 694

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

AUTAX wrote:

Totally agree RM and the ability to be able to comprehensively teach and explain and not just learn a set of PSTs.

Also an ability to look after your customers,  your business and your ongoing devolpment within the profession.

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#55 13-10-13 08:59:46

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

"The system has shown that it does not work because less than a third actually get a green badge. And of those who do some don't last long enough to renew their licence.   So while these companies rake in thousands it is failing the public and also failing to improve current standards.
Any attempt to improve driver training needs to start at the very beginning, so that in the future the quality of new entrants will be better and an improvement in  training standards will follow."

Anyone who is contemplating a career in driver training should read what RM has written above, digest and read again. Thousands of people have been wrongly charmed into believing they have what it takes to do this job, sadly many of them did not and some of the ones that did were let down either by poor training, or not enough training. These people lost a lot of money and many will take years to recover financially from their mistake.

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#56 13-10-13 11:15:44

sofasurfer
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: 30-07-13
Posts: 310

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

Roadmaster,

So when you are taken to hospital (hopefully not) do you ask the nurse for her qualifications and pay grade ? Do you ask the doctor if he is on a short term contract, when he qualified and if he is a Consultant ? If you are being assisted by a police officer do you ask if he is a full time, established police officer ? If he is a 'plastic policeman' do you ask for a proper police officer to attend ?

I trained with BSM in 2000 and the training was excellent. Of 10 people on my course, I was the only person to become fully qualified.

My strategy (not BSM's) was to pass all three exams at the first attempt. I planned to work 7 full days each week for 6 months or until I passed Part III because I thought I needed as much practical experience as I could get. It worked for me, I don't think I abused the licence. There is no statutory limit on the number of hours that can be worked on a pink licence.

Most of the instructors I meet were trained by BSM.

On a more fundamental note, I have never been given any scientific evidence to show that improving the standard of instruction will improve the standards of driving. When I ask people for evidence, the usual response it "it's obvious" or "of course it will". Can anyone point to scientific studies or papers on this subject ?

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#57 13-10-13 11:37:59

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

sofasurfer wrote:

Roadmaster,

So when you are taken to hospital (hopefully not) do you ask the nurse for her qualifications and pay grade?

No need, because they are required to ask if you are willing to be seen by a non/part qualified doctor or nurse.  They aren't allowed to consult on their own.   

sofasurfer wrote:

On a more fundamental note, I have never been given any scientific evidence to show that improving the standard of instruction will improve the standards of driving. When I ask people for evidence, the usual response it "it's obvious" or "of course it will". Can anyone point to scientific studies or papers on this subject ?

I never mentioned driving standards, I was referring to the standards of training from a driving instructor.


sofasurfer wrote:

I trained with BSM in 2000 and the training was excellent. Of 10 people on my course, I was the only person to become fully qualified.

That's an appalling record by BSM.  How many of those used a pink licence before getting the boot?

Last edited by Roadmaster (13-10-13 11:44:38)

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#58 13-10-13 12:54:45

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 838

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

Maz wrote:

Why complain about a business model that over the years has helped to keep the price of lessons as high as posible

Take a look on Red's website, lessons for less than a tenner.   

There is an alternative, which is what is currently being discussed at DSA.   The training companies don't think much of it for very obvious reasons, but it would be a  start to ensure that only those who are actually keen and interested in teaching, rather than just wanting to earn 30k would even start training,  which would result in a better quality teacher.

Reds two for one offer is just for a beginners controls lesson if you read the small print.

I get fed up with this constant whitchhunt for "trainee sponsor franchisers" by some. It is one of the "wheels" of this industry, without it things just won't work. All the ethical stuff aside, the industry has to make profit, it's a business, we are not the DSA we are not funded. Look at the big picture for a moment, BSM have long been the lesson price leader, all have followed with a slight undercut, until recent times. Take the trainee conveyer belt from BSM and the income it provides, how will they survive and what will they need to do to survive, how will it effect the price leader of the industry, how will it effect the money in your pocket and mine Roadmaster???

Maz.

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#59 13-10-13 13:58:48

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

Are you saying we should feel sorry for BSM etc who would lose out if a better training system was introduced?  How about all those thousands of trainees who were conned into believing they were going to make 30k if they handed over their  3 grand redundancy money, only to find that it wasn't at all easy, and ended up in debt.
Perhaps we should feel sorry for the fag makers who's profits are now being taken off them by the e-cig marketers.   

If the big trainers can't adapt and diversify in a changing market, tough.  Let them disappear and leave it to those who can.

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#60 13-10-13 14:43:52

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 838

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

Roadmaster wrote:

Are you saying we should feel sorry for BSM etc who would lose out if a better training system was introduced?  How about all those thousands of trainees who were conned into believing they were going to make 30k if they handed over their  3 grand redundancy money, only to find that it wasn't at all easy, and ended up in debt.
Perhaps we should feel sorry for the fag makers who's profits are now being taken off them by the e-cig marketers.   

If the big trainers can't adapt and diversify in a changing market, tough.  Let them disappear and leave it to those who can.

I feel you are not considering the consequences RM, if WE were in the "fag" industry we would be very concerned about e-cigs.

"Feeling sorry" for BSM has nothing to do with it.

The AA saved BSM and the industry from catastrophe for good reason. AADS is as you know, not run by driver trainers, but by business marketeers and finance professionals, they did not take on BSM with its huge debt to resell and make a killing, that will obviously never happen as there is no massive profit to be had. BSM were saved for benefit of the rest of the industry which includes AADS and you and I, because for BSM to disappear with the function it provides in the industry as it stands now, would have disastrous consequences for us all, these people know what they are doing.

To just jump on this "ban the pink" bandwagon, without considering the long term consequences is foolhardy to say the least, and is something I will never support.
Maz.

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#61 13-10-13 15:00:54

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: 24-10-11
Posts: 861

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

MAZ wrote:
Roadmaster wrote:

Are you saying we should feel sorry for BSM etc who would lose out if a better training system was introduced?  How about all those thousands of trainees who were conned into believing they were going to make 30k if they handed over their  3 grand redundancy money, only to find that it wasn't at all easy, and ended up in debt.
Perhaps we should feel sorry for the fag makers who's profits are now being taken off them by the e-cig marketers.   

If the big trainers can't adapt and diversify in a changing market, tough.  Let them disappear and leave it to those who can.

I feel you are not considering the consequences RM, if WE were in the "fag" industry we would be very concerned about e-cigs.

"Feeling sorry" for BSM has nothing to do with it.

The AA saved BSM and the industry from catastrophe for good reason. AADS is as you know, not run by driver trainers, but by business marketeers and finance professionals, they did not take on BSM with its huge debt to resell and make a killing, that will obviously never happen as there is no massive profit to be had. BSM were saved for benefit of the rest of the industry which includes AADS and you and I, because for BSM to disappear with the function it provides in the industry as it stands now, would have disastrous consequences for us all, these people know what they are doing.

To just jump on this "ban the pink" bandwagon, without considering the long term consequences is foolhardy to say the least, and is something I will never support.
Maz.

I'm with RM on this.

BSM going bust would not have been a catastrophe for the industry. Firstly, it would have forced several hundred instructors either to find a new franchise, go independent, or quit. Those who quit would have reduced the oversupply of instructors, but probably not enough to have any effect on prices, and certainly no lasting detriment to learners.

Second, it would have temporarily reduced the industry's capacity to train new instructors. Given that we have far too many, that's hardly a cause for concern.

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#62 13-10-13 15:08:10

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

Red has taken over as the main trainer.   BSM is a very minor player in the industry now, and it would appear that  it's owners are even less enthused about it's function as an instructor training  school.   The AADS want to get rid of the current trainee licence set up too, and that will allow it to finally bury what was once a competitor.

http://www.theaa.com/public_affairs/new … chool.html

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#63 13-10-13 15:11:06

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

BSM was yet another example of "managers", mostly without managerial experience in a commercial environment many promoted beyond their ability, making a hash of things.

Like it or not they were an expensive car leasing company,  which as RM so rightly points out is where they made their money. When you consider they didn't actually pay for the cars they were leasing, its actually quite obscene what iinstructors were charged, to drive around in a bottom of the range corsa.

Well actually if you consider many were being charged around 1200 per month its grossly obscene.

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#64 13-10-13 15:30:13

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,324
Website

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

You  have lost me with the idea that BSM going belly up would have been a catastrophe for he industry.

There will still be 17 year olds, there will still be people providing the service of training them.

For the franchisees of BSM there would be immediate problems as the supply of pupils dropped off, but for the rest it would make no difference.

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#65 13-10-13 15:53:38

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

Correct kaf and the instructors with the biggest smile on their faces and the ones who last the longest are the ones not being financially crippled by huge franchise fees.

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#66 13-10-13 19:37:18

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 838

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

You all unfortunately have little foresight. BSM has only one asset, it would be sold to the highest bidder, if it ended up in the hands of  "Budget Cowboys" what would be the consequences to the rest of the industry?
A business consortium with no loyalty to the industry might see offering lessons at 17 pounds per hour as a way of milking the brand for all it's got for a short term profit. How will indies justify high fees If BSM offer such low prices?
I doubt we would be smiling at all.

BSM needs to retain its status quo, if that means retaining the pink licence then so be it.


Maz.

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#67 13-10-13 20:02:36

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

MAZ wrote:

You all unfortunately have little foresight. BSM has only one asset, it would be sold to the highest bidder, if it ended up in the hands of  "Budget Cowboys" what would be the consequences to the rest of the industry?
A business consortium with no loyalty to the industry might see offering lessons at 17 pounds per hour as a way of milking the brand for all it's got for a short term profit. How will indies justify high fees If BSM offer such low prices?
I doubt we would be smiling at all.

BSM needs to retain its status quo, if that means retaining the pink licence then so be it.


Maz.

Maz, BSM is not a driving school, so does not take any income whatsoever from driving lessons.  It has no assets other than it's name.   It is a car hire and lesson booking agent which charges a high franchise free, and  isn't even an independent organisation any more.  The company was bought by the AA for one pound after it went into administration,  because it had lost all it's value in the face of new competition. 

If it decided to  advertise lessons very cheaply it would be it is the  franchisees who would take the hit, and if they couldn't make any money they would either pack up or move to another franchise/become an indy. That would mean even less income for BSM.

BSM used to be a big player in the DSA consultative groups and had plenty of influence.  It now has no separate representation, and is represented at meetings by the AA, who oppose the trainee system in it's current form.     
It's looking very bleak for the future of BSM, and when the trainee system is changed BSM will  become obsolete and cease to exist.  BSM franchisees will move then over to the AA.

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#68 13-10-13 20:13:41

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

I charge more than B$M. I don't have 10 for 99 offers, B$M do.

I have a reasonable diary and I work for me and my pupils.


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#69 13-10-13 21:42:35

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 838

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

Let me remind you of the AADS USP. It's not that it's the best school in the UK, not the cheapest school in the UK, but: "The only National Driving School Exclusively using Fully Qualified Driving Instructors".
It has traded on this strap line for 23 years, others have tried to refute this statement to no avail, as the AA will robustly defend its position on this statement.

The "statement" relies firstly, on a trainee licence system (revised or not) remaining in place and secondly, that other schools use trainee instructors to teach "L" drivers. How much "revision" do you think they will want to the system?

BTW A "revised" trainee licence could mean something as little as changing the badge from pink to purple!!

Maz.

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#70 13-10-13 22:52:24

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

"Fully Qualified" always makes me cringe. Like tradesmen that advertise on their vans as "Fully Insured" or "Fully Qualified".

You are either Qualified or not; you are either Insured or not.

Agreed the AA didn't allow their trainees to use an AA liveried car to teach learners under the guise of Qualified DIs nor was it necessary to issue the advice to hide the pink trainee certificate behind the tax disc like B$M trainees were encouraged to do.

I have no problem with the pink trainee certificate just as long as the PDI was suitably tested as to his/her ability to be able to teach or explain in their own words and to be able to make themselves understood as to the subject they were teaching.

A good instructor will develop a source of referrals but cannot depend on that source of pupils until they have been in business for around five years.

I'm not saying that there are not a few natural PDIs out there that do have the ability to teach and become excellent and successful ADis but they are few and far between and some criticism of poor instruction leading to the high rate of KSI cannot be ignored.

Raising the age could well lead to higher incidences of illegal driving. If the Government are considering raising the age before they can drive a car under supervision then they should look at the recent changes in the German legislation.


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#71 14-10-13 07:14:32

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

The fault was never really with the person using the pink licence, the fault was with the ADI or school sponsoring them. The licence is fine as long as adequate, good quality supervision is given by someone who has the necessary credentials to teach the PDI, unfortunately the pink has in a lot of cases been used to attract people to lease cars. The idea of the pink as has been mentioned, is to gain experience, not make money, thats a great concept flawed by the fact that the person using it has a hefty car payment to make every week. So the abusers of the system are those suppling the car, not the PDI trying to get experience.

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#72 20-02-14 16:46:04

Shadgrind
Member
From: Hungerford
Registered: 20-07-13
Posts: 24
Website

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

Well, thanks for all messages, good and bad. I am pleased to say I am now a fully paid up ADI! big_smile

I am working for RED, and think I will be happy here for a while, no plans to go it alone just yet! Having lots of success with pupils. Pass rate was 100% for a short while but now settled into a groove around 66 or so. I have been quiet on here for some time as I felt a bit of an outsider, due to being a pinkie roll

Will be on and off now as I think of things to say, and of course ask the wise ones.


Going to the brink of death & back in a nine car pile-up, is much like making love to a beautiful woman. Brace yourself, hold tight & pray you make contact with her twin airbags as soon as possible big_smile

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#73 20-02-14 17:04:46

johnp
Verified Member
From: Dorset
Registered: 04-03-06
Posts: 2,636

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

Well done. I am so pleased to read that.

Enjoy your work in the real world of being an ADI.


Driving is books-
1. "safe and responsible INDEPENDENCE."
2. "DISABILITY into ABILITY" 
3. "PSYCHOLOGY than SYSTEMS.
www.drivingincludesu.co.uk

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#74 20-02-14 18:49:10

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Cannot Afford to Work

Well done Shadgrind. They can be a little blunt on here and not too sympathetic. But once dedication has been rewarded, as in your case, then you'll find the Welcome mat at the front door. So come on in, the water's fine.  smile


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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