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#1 20-09-13 16:50:18

paulweller84
Member
Registered: 20-09-13
Posts: 14

Instructors - Opinions Please!

Hi, I would like to ask any instructors on here what their thoughts are on the following issue, and hopefully back it up with some actual solid rules!

There is a dispute at my place of work between instructors on the correct way to deal with traffic light controlled roundabouts. Specifically I mean those that have marked lanes for destinations. I have drawn a (shaky) diagram, shown below, to explain the type of junction that causes confusion.

Screen_Shot_2013_09_20_at_17_34_54.png

Firstly let me explain that approaching this roundabout, a sign informs you to use both lanes to turn right.

It has been argued that if you were approaching this roundabout and following the blue line, no signal would be needed. The reason for this is that if you were in the left lane approaching Point 1, you would not signal right as it may confuse those in the right lane thinking you wished to change lanes.

Then as you approach Point 2, no signal is needed as you are not changing lanes, only choosing which of the two lanes you need from the two your lane has split into.

It has then been said that as you move away from the lights at Point 2 and reach the area marked Point 3, again no signal is needed to continue around the roundabout as it may confuse those in the right lane and you are again not changing lanes.

Finally, I have been told that no exit signal is needed at Point 4, as you are already in a designated lane heading off the roundabout.

I have suggested that this is all wrong as the junction is a roundabout and therefore governed by the Highway code rules for roundabouts, however some have said that when the roundabout is controlled by traffic lights, it becomes a one-way system and therefore requires no signal. This is an ongoing debate and although some strong beliefs and opinions have come out, no-one can actually get to the bottom of this by offering some proven facts or rules to explain their argument!

So, roundabout with traffic lights... A one-way system?

What exactly defines a roundabout (And subsequently requires HC rules apply)

Discuss!

Many thanks

Paul

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20-09-13 16:50:18

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Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!



#2 20-09-13 17:22:59

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

Whenever there is a choice a signal should be given if others need to know

assuming others are around then a right signal should be given once being in the middle lane at point 2

No signal required for exit unless pedestrrians need it but no harm done if it is put on out of habit

Last edited by (ROG) (20-09-13 17:40:51)


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#3 20-09-13 19:08:47

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

We have one of these in our town.

It is treated as a one way system and signals are only required if changing lanes.

For your scenario I would not signal at any point.

I am in my lane and sticking to it throughout, any car I see signalling I am expecting to change lanes, this is misinformation.

There are however no "rules" as such, you will get different opinions, that does not make people "wrong" driving has many grey areas.

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#4 20-09-13 19:13:56

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

I think I would do the same as kaf, as I'm not changing lanes at any point

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#5 20-09-13 19:23:27

martin Williams
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Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

I would not signal same as Kaf.

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#6 20-09-13 19:51:11

Mentor
Verified Member
Registered: 22-10-05
Posts: 382

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

No signal from me either, same as Kaf.

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#7 20-09-13 20:20:07

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

Similar roundabout in Salisbury, St Marks. Fail if a right hand signal is not given when going round to the right on the ring road towards A36 Southampton.

At point two, you have the choice of going ahead or right. Right hand signal. Again in Salisbury it is expected to signal left to show you are leaving although I cannot see the reason why but it definitely want's cancelling.

Rog, although not an ADI (CAR), is correct. You can never assume others know what your intention is if you do not tell them.

If no one about, then that's a different story.


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#8 20-09-13 20:23:08

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

Don't be so quick to be categorical about correct or incorrect, our is on a test route, never had a fault for a non signal when going right at the option point.

It is not that black and white like I said earlier.

As for intention, it is to stay in my lane unless I tell you otherwise, whichever way it goes it is still my lane and my choice of direction will not encroach on other traffic.

Last edited by kaf (20-09-13 20:24:54)

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#9 20-09-13 21:48:10

Lewinpeter1
Verified Member
From: Morpeth,Northumberland
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 803
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Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

Hi
Similar one in Newcastle where you are expected to signal right on approach; serious fault if no signal applied.
If in doubt and its on a test route ask for guidance from the TCM.
Peter


Dont press that,oh @@##!

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#10 20-09-13 21:57:01

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 838

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

Many of these in our areas, signals are usually not required unless changing lane, no signal is preferable to a missleading signal. Keep in mind that waiting drivers are not watching your vehicle but watching traffic lights, unlike normal roundabouts where drivers are trying to predict where you are going, on these roundabouts they don't care where you are going, just waiting for a green light.

If you watch other drivers on this type of roundabout you will see how missleading unnecessary signals can be.

Maz.

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#11 21-09-13 06:59:27

brod
Banned
Registered: 20-03-13
Posts: 694

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

kaf wrote:

We have one of these in our town.

It is treated as a one way system and signals are only required if changing lanes.

For your scenario I would not signal at any point.

I am in my lane and sticking to it throughout, any car I see signalling I am expecting to change lanes, this is misinformation.

There are however no "rules" as such, you will get different opinions, that does not make people "wrong" driving has many grey areas.

Agree with above. Any signalling would just confuse others smile

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#12 21-09-13 08:36:43

paulweller84
Member
Registered: 20-09-13
Posts: 14

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

So currently I think its 7-4 in favour of no signal required. Particularly liked this comment, Maz.

MAZ wrote:

Many of these in our areas, signals are usually not required unless changing lane, no signal is preferable to a missleading signal. Keep in mind that waiting drivers are not watching your vehicle but watching traffic lights, unlike normal roundabouts where drivers are trying to predict where you are going, on these roundabouts they don't care where you are going, just waiting for a green light.

The issue now is that the examiners at our place are sometimes, but not always, failing drivers for not signalling, which further confuses the matter. I can see how this has divided opinion though, it's not really something that can be easily justified with rules. !!!!!!!! roads!

Thanks everyone for your thoughts

Any more, please feel free to add

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#13 21-09-13 09:08:05

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

Send your drawing to customer services, attn  chief driving examiner, and ask what would be required on test.

Last edited by Roadmaster (21-09-13 09:08:25)

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#14 21-09-13 09:59:56

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 838

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

If this is on a test route local examiners will have come to an internal agreement over the way signals are marked on this roundabout. Personally I see no reason for a fault if no signal is given in the scenario you have given. The problems with spiral roundabouts is that the road markings are not perhaps as clear as shown in your image and drivers can "wander" and not stick rigidly to lane, therefore generating mirror/signal faults. Examiners tend not to go into too much detail on roundabouts just describing the faults and not the hows and whys, it is not their remit to teach.

Maz.

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#15 21-09-13 10:02:49

Itaintmeyouknow
Member
Registered: 21-09-13
Posts: 6

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

kaf wrote:

We have one of these in our town.

It is treated as a one way system and signals are only required if changing lanes.

For your scenario I would not signal at any point.

I am in my lane and sticking to it throughout, any car I see signalling I am expecting to change lanes, this is misinformation.

There are however no "rules" as such, you will get different opinions, that does not make people "wrong" driving has many grey areas.

Would that be Bridge Centre roundabout in Chippenham?  I passed my test in chippers a month ago and did several routes around it. Some of the suggested routes by my ADI contradicted the signs- the one from Corsham in particular due to the road markings on the roundabout itself. The examiner confirmed my ADI was correct.

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#16 21-09-13 18:38:48

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

Itaintmeyouknow wrote:
kaf wrote:

We have one of these in our town.

It is treated as a one way system and signals are only required if changing lanes.

For your scenario I would not signal at any point.

I am in my lane and sticking to it throughout, any car I see signalling I am expecting to change lanes, this is misinformation.

There are however no "rules" as such, you will get different opinions, that does not make people "wrong" driving has many grey areas.

Would that be Bridge Centre roundabout in Chippenham?  I passed my test in chippers a month ago and did several routes around it. Some of the suggested routes by my ADI contradicted the signs- the one from Corsham in particular due to the road markings on the roundabout itself. The examiner confirmed my ADI was correct.


That is indeed the one big_smile

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#17 21-09-13 18:45:42

Itaintmeyouknow
Member
Registered: 21-09-13
Posts: 6

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

kaf wrote:
Itaintmeyouknow wrote:
kaf wrote:

We have one of these in our town.

It is treated as a one way system and signals are only required if changing lanes.

For your scenario I would not signal at any point.

I am in my lane and sticking to it throughout, any car I see signalling I am expecting to change lanes, this is misinformation.

There are however no "rules" as such, you will get different opinions, that does not make people "wrong" driving has many grey areas.

Would that be Bridge Centre roundabout in Chippenham?  I passed my test in chippers a month ago and did several routes around it. Some of the suggested routes by my ADI contradicted the signs- the one from Corsham in particular due to the road markings on the roundabout itself. The examiner confirmed my ADI was correct.


That is indeed the one big_smile

Initially I disagreed with my ADI as it looked to me like a right turn on the roundabout, which the signpost seems to confirm. If you go in the right hand lane, it means a lane change is usually necessary whereas if you choose the left lane you can keep in the lane all the way around. I was told to indicate right on it by my ADI though and got this part of the route on my test (started with bay park at Chippenham TC then in dependant driving following signs to Warminster.

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#18 22-09-13 07:00:20

Coasting Mart
Verified Member
Registered: 11-06-09
Posts: 967

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

I use a motorway junction which is quite similar to the original sketch.  I often signal at point 3, especially if there are a few cars waiting at the lights at 4.  My car may not clear the path of guys behind me wanting to go ahead at 3.  So I signal to let them know I'm heading for the queue and not accelerating madly ahead, trying to avoid a rear shunt.

It is a fairly crazy situation when a significant element of the road system presents such variation around the country and from one example to another that there is no definitive answer as to the signal protocol/rules.  Locals may do it differently to visitors, learners may be told to do it one way for their test, but use another once they've passed like most other people around them. A bunch of 'professional' instructors can't agree what the answer is, no one knows precisely without asking a TCM, and all the highway code has to offer is 'use the appropriate lane'!!  roll

Yes, we try and equip ourselves and our clients with useful guidelines and principles, but there seem to be so many creative variants produced by traffic engineers that 'no one knows' is the only answer!  In practice - follow everyone else, close your eyes and hope seems to work!   tongue


"I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car"

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#19 22-09-13 08:27:46

Lady-Hynarc
Verified Member
Registered: 09-04-12
Posts: 649

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

Coasting Mart wrote:

It is a fairly crazy situation when a significant element of the road system presents such variation around the country and from one example to another that there is no definitive answer as to the signal protocol/rules.  Locals may do it differently to visitors, learners may be told to do it one way for their test, but use another once they've passed like most other people around them. A bunch of 'professional' instructors can't agree what the answer is, no one knows precisely without asking a TCM, and all the highway code has to offer is 'use the appropriate lane'!!  roll

Yes, we try and equip ourselves and our clients with useful guidelines and principles, but there seem to be so many creative variants produced by traffic engineers that 'no one knows' is the only answer!  In practice - follow everyone else, close your eyes and hope seems to work!   tongue

CM, I couldn't agree more!  Other than one minor semantic issue (not sure that the collective noun for instructors is 'bunch' and I'm certainly a professional!) I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments.  We can teach pupils how they should do a specific roundabout but the chances are that it won't work for the next roundabout because the authorities change the rules..... plus there are a lot of drivers out there who haven't been taught how to do the roundabout and wing it anyway.

I try to teach my pupils to work out whether they need to signal by using their mirrors to identify if there is anyone in their wake who looks as though they are going to compromise their position - otherwise let the lanes do the work.  The signal, in this case, is very much a wakeup call to the prat behind who is doing it wrong and needs to be shouted at (metaphorically speaking) to understand.

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#20 22-09-13 08:58:55

Itaintmeyouknow
Member
Registered: 21-09-13
Posts: 6

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

The biggest problem I find - and having passed my test only a month ago at the ripe age of 42, I'm a confirmed amateur who has spent many years observing what drivers do - is the markings on the ground that are supposed to help drivers find a path around the roundabout.  It's those tiny dotted lines.  In some places they are very helpful, in other places they are downright dangerous.  From my amateur perspective they should be helping find ways to guide people around with as few lane changes on the junction as possible.  At the moment, they are so mixed that unless you know a roundabout well, you're left wondering whether or not to follow the lines.

Last edited by Itaintmeyouknow (22-09-13 09:00:23)

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#21 22-09-13 10:05:04

DonT
Verified Member
Registered: 08-10-11
Posts: 141

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

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#22 07-01-14 16:04:43

mikeigoe
Member
Registered: 27-11-13
Posts: 5

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

Hi all,

Love these type of roundabouts where it isn't stated on approach you can turn right from the left, personally i think everything said in original question is correct however i would signal right at point 2 not on approach.

Mike

Cambridgeshire Driving School

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#23 08-01-14 09:02:07

ger
Verified Member
From: south wales
Registered: 12-03-09
Posts: 321
Website

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

hi don t done the arc de triomphe  a few times just drive fast and keep your hand on the horn mind you its always in a van not my car

   ger

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#24 08-01-14 11:53:48

AUTAX
Verified Member
Registered: 22-07-11
Posts: 1,032

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

I've stood and watched and it was the only time I was glad I wasn't driving. I believe insurance is invalid if you get hit in certain places on the roundabout.


Be Fear-less, go GEAR-LESS!

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#25 08-01-14 12:31:22

Laurence Jacquemin ADI
Verified Member
From: Crawley, West Sussex
Registered: 26-11-13
Posts: 96
Website

Re: Instructors - Opinions Please!

Surely all roundabouts are technically one way systems, as you can only go round them one way, as confirmed by the blue arrows in the centre of the roundabouts.

I would not signal on this roundabouts, as it is not going to benefit anyone. The car behind will know where you are going by road position (a type of signal) the cars ahead would not really need to know as they are stopped at traffic lights. the only time I may consider a signal is when exiting, perhaps if there is a pedestrian or something there and it would help them know that I am coming off the roundabout, as they can't see the road markings/layout. Also like stated before I would signal if moving lane.

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