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#1 31-05-13 17:21:52

brod
Banned
Registered: 20-03-13
Posts: 694

What charge??

Following a debate in the local pub (as you do big_smile ) i need to ask for some opinions.
Cyclists!!! If a cyclist is involved in an accident and a police officer attending suspected the cyclist had been drinking and breathalysed the cyclist. What offence would the cyclist be charged with if it was proven the cyclist was over the limit?
My opinion!! Whilst the cyclist would be charged with something, as it is an offence, the cyclist would not receive penalty points or a driving ban, some of the lads in the pub disagreed with me sad , I now doubt what i have said.

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31-05-13 17:21:52

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Re: What charge??




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#2 31-05-13 18:25:27

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: What charge??

a/ The Licensing Act 1872 makes it an offence to be drunk in charge of a bicycle (or any other vehicle or carriage) on a highway or in a public place. This could be simply pushing a cycle & not riding it. Magistrates can hand down a 1 month prison sentence and a 200 fine.

b/ It is an offence to ride a bicycle whilst unfit through drink or drugs. Magistrates can set a maximum fine of 1000.

The police dont have the power to require you to take a breath test or provide samples, either on the road or anywhere else. They might ask, but you wont commit an offence if you say no. On the other hand, if you do agree to take a test and it shows a high level of alcohol in your system, they may well be able to use it as evidence against you. (RTA s.6)

If they take the view that you have committed the riding while unfit offence or the drunk in charge offence, they have no power to issue a fixed penalty notice. So its either a verbal warning or prosecution (or possibly a caution). If you are caught committing one of these offences, theres probably a fair chance youll be arrested to prevent injury to yourself or others.  (RTOA ss.51(1), 54(1), Sch 3; PACE s.24(5)(c))


See UK Cycle Rules

Last edited by RobC (31-05-13 18:36:31)


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#3 31-05-13 19:34:19

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: What charge??

Very good and interesting point. If I were to attempt to fish without a rod licence I would be liable for a fine of upto 2500 pounds. Yet bikes use the highway without a licence, reckon the Government has missed a good little earner with bikes.

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#4 31-05-13 23:07:26

Triplea35
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-12
Posts: 500

Re: What charge??

Triker wrote:

Another good reason to license cyclists and force them pay road tax and have a minimum of third party insurance like the rest of us who use public roads.

Road Tax was abolished in 1937!

Apply vehicle tax to them and they will be Band A so no revenue from it.

What about pedestrians? Make them have third party insurance too!!

Last edited by Triplea35 (01-06-13 06:47:16)

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#5 01-06-13 09:14:59

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: 24-10-11
Posts: 861

Re: What charge??

I totally agree that cyclists should be tested and insured, and their bikes registered.

However, I can't see any justification for charging them some form of VED, since this is now based on emissions. Millions of motorists now pay no "Road Tax".

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#6 01-06-13 11:17:27

Daveyboy
Verified Member
From: Nr Alford, Lincolnshire
Registered: 25-01-09
Posts: 377

Re: What charge??

Insurance is available for cyclists, as I have third party cover for my bike and have had for years.

My insurers are Aviva.

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#7 01-06-13 12:22:39

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: What charge??

Whilst we are on the subject of cyclists, whilst I make every effort to teach my pupils to pass them safely, they need to learn to help themselves, riding 2 and 3 abreast on NSL country lanes is lunacy and flaming dangerous for everyone as is the practice of ignoring red lights. Some of them are stupidly arrogant, then bleat on about how other road users put them at risk.

Last edited by Evan (01-06-13 14:13:58)

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#8 01-06-13 13:11:36

Bob12
Banned
Registered: 13-04-13
Posts: 8

Re: What charge??

Like all road users we have to respect each other.  I teach that to my pupils and do not let prejudices start.

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#9 01-06-13 14:18:32

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: What charge??

Bob12 wrote:

Like all road users we have to respect each other.  I teach that to my pupils and do not let prejudices start.


Which is why cyclists need to be educated and made aware of the implications of cycling dangerously and how it can compromise road safety for others, so do the idiots who cross the road without looking with headphones plugged in. Personal safety is the responsibility of the individual.

Last edited by Evan (01-06-13 14:20:10)

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#10 02-06-13 12:20:02

Triplea35
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-12
Posts: 500

Re: What charge??

Bob12 wrote:

Like all road users we have to respect each other.  I teach that to my pupils and do not let prejudices start.

Sensible post Bob12

Triker et al, I think this website may be of interest smile

www.ipayroadtax.com

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#11 07-06-13 16:16:21

shurrupyourface
Member
Registered: 07-06-13
Posts: 1

Re: What charge??

Anyone who mentions "road tax" obviously still thinks it's the 30s; Churchill abolished said road tax.

In the current day, however, drivers pay what's actually called vehicle excise duty (VED), a tax that you pay to pollute, not to use the roads per se. After all, pedestrians don't pay "road tax" while crossing the road, nor do they levitate across them. How much VED you pay depends on the band your vehicle falls in, and, in turn, what band your vehicle falls in depends on how much Co2 your car emits. There are cars that fall into band A, (e.g., Smart cars, Prius, Bluemotion, and V40), and they're there because they emit low Co2 levels. Coincidentally, band A vehicles owners also pay NO VED, much like cyclists. The only difference is motor vehicles all have to be banded, while cyclists don't. Every time you band a vehicle but take no VED you lose the country money. So, if cyclists had to have tax discs, they'd still not be charged because of the Co2 status, this would costs the country money and make the country nothing.

Now, how are the roads paid for then? Via local and general taxation, i.e., WE ALL PAY FOR THE ROADS. The VED you pay has NEVER been ring fenced to pay for the roads, even if it was, it would NEVER cover the true cost of private motoring in the UK, let alone the maintenance of the roads. The true cost of motoring takes into account not just the cost of roads, but pollution, congestion, and even road deaths (estimated at 27m per death, while there are some 450 deaths per year in the UK caused by drivers). The TRUE cost of motoring is estimated at BILLIONS a year, your VED does not even scratch the surface of this, let alone the fact that VED goes into the general tax pot to pay for ANYTHING, e.g., schools, hospitals etc... So, the truth is, motoring is subsidised in the UK by EVERYONE who pays ANY KIND OF TAX, I think then, that makes YOU the parasite.

You mention cyclists not using cycle-lanes. I admit, it's hard to understand, as a driver, why this would be. Often, cycle-lanes are the most dangerous place to be due to grids, potholes, glass and debris etc; add to this the fact they're parked in by drivers, they're often only advisory, and they're piecemeal. All these factors make them a supremely dangerous thing for cyclists so, sometimes, it's sometimes best to avoid them. I'm not saying that cycle-lanes are a bad idea, if they're continuous, wide, well marked and maintained, they're amazing, but the councils have not got the guts to spend money on them, mainly because they're too busy paying for motorists.

This whole idea that cyclists are dangerous and risking everyone's life and safety is redonculouse! If you remove any subjectivity (often caused by media hype and social bias) out of the equation and look at where most of the accidents come from, you'll see that cyclists simply are not dangerous, well, barely: Of all the road accidents between 2001 - 2010 cyclists make up a minuscule proportion of them. In this period KSIs for pedestrians vs car incidents were 53901 while KSIs for pedestrians vs. bikes incidents were 532. Even taking into account the fact that cyclists make up a much smaller percent of traffic, it still means cars are WAY, WAY more dangerous.

Between 1997 and 2008 no pedestrians were killed by red light jumping cyclists; however, in the same period, 12 pedestrians were killed by red light jumping cars. So, again, no one is disputing the antisocial nature of jumping red lights, but just put its danger in to perspective.

This leads us nicely onto why cyclists often jump red lights. It's simple, bad infrastructure = bad cyclists. The reason is this: When everyone sets off from lights, they're tightly bunched so when the cyclists start to get over taken, cars pass much closer than if the cyclist had a few seconds head start, this is why many cyclists apologetically creep through red lights when they shouldn't. This is further proven by the light systems they have in the Netherlands and Denmark, i.e., cyclists get their own green light 4 (or more) seconds ahead of the cars.

While we're on the subject of safety, 127 cyclists died on the road last year and while this itself is a shocking figure what's even more shocking is a study done in Westminster that showed that on 67% of occasions the driver was solely to blame. I can confirm that from vast experience (bike messengering) that drivers simply DO NOT THINK BIKE and will pull out in front of you! I've been hit 2x in the past year and I was in the cycle lane on both occasions and cars just crossed them in front of my. In pedestrian vs bike incidents the pedestrians were at fault 60% of the time (same study) as often they're crossing between cars (bare in mind filtering is TOTALLY LEGAL, and so, technically, is undertaking), or they're not looking and only listening. I've hit several pedestrians in the past year from while working.

Let's assume innocent until proven guilty, cars have proven just how many they can kill so they need insurance, licensing and registering. The government, and trust me, they've discussed this at length on many occasions, do not see registering and plating cyclists (or their bikes), nor do they see compulsory insurance a necessary venture given the relatively little risk we pose compared to cars.

I know you're all upset that the car adverts on TV never showed you traffic jams, obesity, and costs of running cars and then, years later, you're struck with reality. While cyclists save thousands each year and slip by expensive cars. It's not too late to change though.

GET A BIKE!

smile

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#12 07-06-13 17:30:27

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,324
Website

Re: What charge??

Not worth a response.

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#13 07-06-13 17:45:12

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,297

Re: What charge??

Hi
Perhaps he is the idiotic militant cyclist who fronted up the recent BBC TV programme about the war between cyclists and motorists, showing himself up at the same time.

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#14 08-06-13 10:42:45

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: What charge??

shurrupyourface wrote:

You mention cyclists not using cycle-lanes. I admit, it's hard to understand, as a driver, why this would be. Often, cycle-lanes are the most dangerous place to be due to grids, potholes, glass and debris etc; add to this the fact they're parked in by drivers, they're often only advisory, and they're piecemeal. All these factors make them a supremely dangerous thing for cyclists so, sometimes, it's sometimes best to avoid them. I'm not saying that cycle-lanes are a bad idea, if they're continuous, wide, well marked and maintained, they're amazing, but the councils have not got the guts to spend money on them, mainly because they're too busy paying for motorists.

This whole idea that cyclists are dangerous and risking everyone's life and safety is redonculouse! If you remove any subjectivity (often caused by media hype and social bias) out of the equation and look at where most of the accidents come from, you'll see that cyclists simply are not dangerous, well, barely: Of all the road accidents between 2001 - 2010 cyclists make up a minuscule proportion of them. In this period KSIs for pedestrians vs car incidents were 53901 while KSIs for pedestrians vs. bikes incidents were 532. Even taking into account the fact that cyclists make up a much smaller percent of traffic, it still means cars are WAY, WAY more dangerous.

Between 1997 and 2008 no pedestrians were killed by red light jumping cyclists; however, in the same period, 12 pedestrians were killed by red light jumping cars. So, again, no one is disputing the antisocial nature of jumping red lights, but just put its danger in to perspective.
And yet the mental attitude of car driver and cyclist is exactly the same. The consequences differ solely because a car weighs 1200kgs and a bike weighs 25kgs

This leads us nicely onto why cyclists often jump red lights. It's simple, bad infrastructure = bad cyclists. The reason is this: When everyone sets off from lights, they're tightly bunched so when the cyclists start to get over taken, cars pass much closer than if the cyclist had a few seconds head start, this is why many cyclists apologetically creep through red lights when they shouldn't. This is further proven by the light systems they have in the Netherlands and Denmark, i.e., cyclists get their own green light 4 (or more) seconds ahead of the cars.
Which moves the problem......4 seconds up the road. Both the Netherlands and Denmark have wonderfully efficient systems because the bike has always been part of their culture, totally different to the UK

While we're on the subject of safety, 127 cyclists died on the road last year and while this itself is a shocking figure what's even more shocking is a study done in Westminster that showed that on 67% of occasions the driver was solely to blame. I can confirm that from vast experience (bike messengering) that drivers simply DO NOT THINK BIKE and will pull out in front of you! I've been hit 2x in the past year and I was in the cycle lane on both occasions and cars just crossed them in front of my. In pedestrian vs bike incidents the pedestrians were at fault 60% of the time (same study) as often they're crossing between cars (bare in mind filtering is TOTALLY LEGAL, and so, technically, is undertaking), or they're not looking and only listening. I've hit several pedestrians in the past year from while working.
As an advocate of Road Safety, could you please forward a link to the Westminster Report? As for your collisions, it is well proven that if you have 2 collisions within 3 years they are likely to be identical. That shows we don't learn from the first time. Perhaps a little self reflection is in order.

Let's assume innocent until proven guilty, cars have proven just how many they can kill so they need insurance, licensing and registering. The government, and trust me, they've discussed this at length on many occasions, do not see registering and plating cyclists (or their bikes), nor do they see compulsory insurance a necessary venture given the relatively little risk we pose compared to cars.

I know you're all upset that the car adverts on TV never showed you traffic jams, obesity, and costs of running cars and then, years later, you're struck with reality. While cyclists save thousands each year and slip by expensive cars. It's not too late to change though.

GET A BIKE!

smile

Recently, in my area, two cyclists have been killed. They are the only cycling fatalities we have had. Both were riding along NSL dual carriageways which are also Trunk Roads during peak hours and were hit by HGV's.  Adjacent to both roads are designated cycle routes. The cost of preventing those fatalities is an estimated 3.5M - and then there are the hidden costs of lost business by closing down the road network for 4 hours. All of which was preventable.

I am with you regarding registration and plating. It is a non-starter and could never be enforced.

I attended a seminar recently where a sergeant from the City of London police gave an excellent presentation regarding cycling in the capital.
He spoke about what has happened in the last 10 years regarding education, enforcement,engineering , not just of junctions but vehicles, such as the sat nav warning of dangerous junctions, additional nearside warning devices on HGV's, larger scope mirrors. Educating the motorist is key to their approach, particularly large vehicles in confined areas. I fully agree with this. But it has to be a two way street.

It was apparent that whilst a lot was being done from this side not much was coming from the cycling side. They think it is everyone elses problem and offer no solution. 

You are no different.

Last edited by trunkmonkey (08-06-13 10:50:03)

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#15 08-06-13 17:07:06

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: What charge??

I appreciate your comments are warranted, however as you correctly say, with nobody to enforce it, new legislation won't change anything.
Having registration, plating and insurance won't stop cyclists being killed.
They are already accountable. There are (and always have been) powers under the RTA to request the name and address of a cyclist following certain offences and it is an offence to fail to give it.

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#16 15-06-13 18:49:30

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: What charge??

"road tax" or whatever you want to call it these days?  We, as cyclists, do pay road tax!  It's just that is is zero rated for cyclists.

Many cyclists are insured.  I'm not at the moment but, when I was a member of the CTC, membership ncluded 3rd party insurance.  When I was a member of Swindon Road Club, Membership included insurance.  When I was actively teaching cyclists I had full insurance.

Yes there are some idiot cyclists around but then there are also some idiot drivers too, idiocy isn't exclusive to cyclists.

A defensive attitude applies to cycling just as much as it does to driving.  As has been suggested, if you have been involved in 2 accidents (whether you re cycling or driving) the question isn't whose fault was it, it's what could I have done to avoid it?  Regardless of fault!


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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