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#1 01-06-13 16:31:13

watson2013
Member
Registered: 01-06-13
Posts: 1

just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Hi does any one know were i stand with driver fault after a road traffic accident? it happened today after picking up my new suzuki gsx1400 up and only riding it for about an hour i collided into the rear of a car who slammed his brakes on due to him messing with his mobile phone and not seeing the traffic stopping in front, i wasnt speeding and was at a safe distance but had no chance in stopping in time what so ever! i was totally helpless, i mean when i say slammed his brakes on he stopped so suddenly the rear of his car lifted there was nothing i could have done, i swerved to avoid but couldnt in time hitting the rear and skidding across the road, i suffered bruising cuts etc but walked away, i was only doing 20-30 mph but wrecked the bike sad to add to this i had witnesses who was behind me who saw everything and also saw the driver on his phone driving dangerously a few minutes earlier and only just missing the rear end themselves, also there was a off duty police officer in front of this car who had to swerve to stop getting rammed up the rear of this driver, both have given statements to police, now at first the traffic officer advised me id probably be at fault and issued me with a driver awarness option costing me £150 i was gobsmacked to say the least! with all the evidence pointing blame at the driver i was getting blamed, anway ive just recieved a phone call from the officer saying he isnt going to pursue me any further after talking to his seargent, a fellow biker, and excluding me from the driver awareness course but still prosecuting the other driver and sending him on said course, so how do i stand with my insurance? will i be punished even with all the blame pointing at the other driver driving without due care? im two months short of getting my 3 years ncb and im only tpft cover, would really apprietiate any advise on this matter before i ring insurance on monday thanks in advance Gary....

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01-06-13 16:31:13

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Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??




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#2 01-06-13 16:50:22

Madiggy
Verified Member
From: UK
Registered: 07-06-05
Posts: 364

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

From what you describe I would say you don't have a leg to stand on, if you challenge responsibility you have both been responsible for differing issues. The other drivers use of the mobile phone did not make you ride closer, so you have not ridden at a speed or distance where you could stop safely in the distance you can see to be clear. So technically you have ridden without due care and attention, (according to the highway code). Hope that helps.


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#3 01-06-13 17:08:14

Lewinpeter1
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From: Morpeth,Northumberland
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 803
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Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Hi
Sorry to sound blunt but how can you say you were at a safe distance and then ram the car in front?
Tough,expensive,lesson learnt;maybe?
Safe distance means just that;SAFE!
Peter


Dont press that,oh @@##!

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#4 01-06-13 17:40:36

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,302

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Hi
Surely an aware driver/rider is also paying attention to what is happening  in front of the vehicle in front?

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#5 01-06-13 19:19:20

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

watson2013 wrote:

to add to this i had witnesses who was behind me who saw everything and also saw the driver on his phone driving dangerously a few minutes earlier and only just missing the rear end themselves, also there was a off duty police officer in front of this car who had to swerve to stop getting rammed up the rear of this driver, both have given statements to police

Sorry to say that If the driver in front had been driving dangerously minutes earlier you should have been giving him even more clearance.
The insurance companies may be willing to apportion some blame to the driver in front in view of the phone usage and other drivers statements however it is unlikely that they will pay out for any damage to your motorcycle. Thankfully however you were uninjured.


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#6 01-06-13 19:23:34

Mentor
Verified Member
Registered: 22-10-05
Posts: 386

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

I was under the impression you could stop a bike much quicker than a car if both are proceeding at the same speed. I'm not a biker so I might be wrong but as said above the OP will have to put this one down to experience.

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#7 01-06-13 19:57:49

la.monikita
Verified Member
From: SE LONDON / KENT
Registered: 12-03-05
Posts: 3,064

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Like said previously, eye on the ball and always safe distance being able to take evasive action if filtering.  Live and learn...


"What is necessary to change a person is to change his awareness of himself."
Abraham Maslow

21st Century Women http://www.loisontheloose.com/my-advent … /the-team/

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#8 01-06-13 21:04:13

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Sorry Gary, as an ex police officer and biker, you are stuffed.
It is always your responsibility to be able to stop,in time, no matter what happens in front.

Time to bite the bullet, take it as a lesson, you,got off lightly, you could have died or been crippled for life.

Self preservation is key, the biker will always come off worst.

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#9 02-06-13 05:51:11

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

watson2013 wrote:

Hi does any one know were i stand with driver fault after a road traffic accident? it happened today after picking up my new suzuki gsx1400 up and only riding it for about an hour i collided into the rear of a car who slammed his brakes on due to him messing with his mobile phone and not seeing the traffic stopping in front, i wasnt speeding and was at a safe distance but had no chance in stopping in time what so ever! i was totally helpless, i mean when i say slammed his brakes on he stopped so suddenly the rear of his car lifted there was nothing i could have done, i swerved to avoid but couldnt in time hitting the rear and skidding across the road, i suffered bruising cuts etc but walked away, i was only doing 20-30 mph but wrecked the bike sad to add to this i had witnesses who was behind me who saw everything and also saw the driver on his phone driving dangerously a few minutes earlier and only just missing the rear end themselves, also there was a off duty police officer in front of this car who had to swerve to stop getting rammed up the rear of this driver, both have given statements to police, now at first the traffic officer advised me id probably be at fault and issued me with a driver awarness option costing me 150 i was gobsmacked to say the least! with all the evidence pointing blame at the driver i was getting blamed, anway ive just recieved a phone call from the officer saying he isnt going to pursue me any further after talking to his seargent, a fellow biker, and excluding me from the driver awareness course but still prosecuting the other driver and sending him on said course, so how do i stand with my insurance? will i be punished even with all the blame pointing at the other driver driving without due care? im two months short of getting my 3 years ncb and im only tpft cover, would really apprietiate any advise on this matter before i ring insurance on monday thanks in advance Gary....

I know this might upset you Gary, but are you seriously asking this?

You had a crash because you had not left enough space in front of you to be able to safely stop! How can this not be your fault?

If what you say is correct, the reason you have not been offered a driver awareness course is possibly because, rightly or wrongly, lots of forces do not prosecute both sides of the same incident. If the other driver was offered a course it is possibly because the police think that what he was doing was 'more wrong', or it is easier to prove his fault than yours. Often these type of courses are designed to make drivers and riders think about what has happened and accept responsibility for their actions during an incident, this appears to be something you have problems with. It might be a pity that you have not been offered a course, if you had been it might change the way you think about riding and driving and taking responsibility for your actions.

I have to say that, as an ex-police motorcyclist, I find it strange that someone who has just bought a 1400cc bike can not see the error in their actions in this situation. I am assuming that you are an experienced biker if you have just bought a new GSX1400. By posting this you have asked for comments, my comment is if you can not see and understand what has caused this incident I don't see you having a very long motorcycling career! You say 'i was totally helpless', really! Can you not see that if you had allowed more space and / or positioned the bike differently the outcome could have been totally different? Any bike, especially a big bike, can get you into trouble very quickly. A rider has to expect and anticipate this and plan accordingly if they are going to stay alive very long. I would suggest that you look into taking further rider training on your bike as soon as possible if you want to enjoy riding it for very long. I also suggest that tpft insurance on a new, or any, bike is not a good idea.

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#10 02-06-13 06:08:42

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Blindspot wrote:

Glad you were able to walk away from this Gary.

Your new Suzuki, after only an hours riding, would still have very slippery tyres as they had not been scrubbed in.  Takes a recommended 100 miles of cornering etc to break in the tyre surfaces on new tyres  and until then maximum following distance  very gentle braking and bags of looking ahead.

This would have helped you avoid this disaster.  I'm afraid you haven't much defence here.  If the vehicle had stopped in front of you for a legitimate emergency you would still have hit him because you were in the wrong place.

As Kaf says thank your lucky stars and learn the lesson.  Keep well off the exhaust pipe of the vehicle in front and leave yourself room to steer safely out of danger if the worst happens.

A motorcycle can duck and dive but you need space to do it.

BS

I have often heard people make similar comment to these about bike tyres.

Are new bike tyres 'very slippery'? What do insurance companies say about this? Do they specify that a tyre has to be scrubbed in prior to road use? Do tyres have a warning on them saying that they are 'very slippery' for the first 100 miles? A tyre has to be able to meet certain standards of grip and it makes no difference it it is new, 100 miles old or older, the tyre has to meet the same standards. Can you imagine an insurance company trying to say that a crash was a rider's fault because they had had expensive new tyres fitted which were 'slippery' but if they had had older tyres on they might not have crashed! What would the tyres manufacturers have to say about that? It makes sense to take it easy for a few miles on new tyres to get a feel for them and to prove they have been fitted correctly, but are they really 'slippery'?

I rode bikes daily for years and I can truthfully say that I never noticed any difference between a new tyre and one with over 100 miles usage. When I was on courses at the police driving school we regularly had the tyres changed but a new tyre made no difference to how the bike was ridden, which was a fast as was safely possible. Now this may well be down to me not being good enough to notice the difference, I certainly could notice the difference between certain tyre makes, but I could not tell when I was on 'slippery' tyres.

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#11 02-06-13 06:17:01

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Im with Blindspot on this one and so it seems are tyre manufacturers. Bridgestone recommends 125 miles scuffing in.

In addition if I had only had the bike (or any new vehicle) an hour I would be riding/driving more carefully anyway so as to get used it.

See Bridgestone Tyres

Last edited by RobC (02-06-13 06:20:47)


www.midasbustraining.webs.com
Midas Minibus Driver Assessor Trainer & Passenger Assistant Trainer
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#12 02-06-13 11:54:33

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Fell off a police bike once, stopped at junction on a road with a VERY severe camber, the new tyre, fitted the day before just slid sideways down the camber whilst I was practically stationary.

All this much to the amusement of the Honda owners club meeting in the garden of the adjacent pub!

My boss didn't believe in slippery new tyres either!

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#13 02-06-13 15:29:04

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,302

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Hi
Technically the other driver is not being prosecuted, the DA scheme is used as an alternative to prosecution .
Insurance is affected by claims and reported accidents as well as prosecutions, so in view of the fact that you have a duty to report it to the insurance co. then, yes it probably will affect your premium.

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#14 02-06-13 16:43:57

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Blindspot wrote:
ratty wrote:

..... but I could not tell when I was on 'slippery' tyres

Well all I can say, as a DAS qualified motorcycle trainer, in response to that, ratty, is that you have been lucky to have got away with it for years.

I watched a customer of the dealership whose premises I was using as a training area ride his brand new Kawasaki out of the dealership and right turn onto the main road and accelerate quite hard because he had left it a bit late. 

He clearly wasn't ready for the power delivery and did not know about the slickness of new tyres because his back end whipped round and the bike fell on top of him.

Broken brake lever and indicator, bent footpeg and badly scored fairing.  Oh and a right leg broken in two places.

We ran out into the road, hit the stop switch, lifted the bike off him and sent for the ambulance. In hospital for two weeks.

He has learned about slippery tyres the hard way.

Riders have to understand everything about motorcycles to stay safe on them and, incidentally, that is why I would never buy a second hand machine unless it has had a chassis alignment test.

Good link Rob.

BS

Well, one person's good luck is another's skill and good judgement. What did Gary Player used to say, something along the lines of the more he worked and practiced the luckier he got.

What you went on to describe was the rider making a poor judgement and then asking too much of the tyre. This can happen at any time in any vehicle not just on new tyres.

As I said originally, this is just something I have never noticed.

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#15 02-06-13 16:47:50

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

pegasus wrote:

Hi
Technically the other driver is not being prosecuted, the DA scheme is used as an alternative to prosecution .
Insurance is affected by claims and reported accidents as well as prosecutions, so in view of the fact that you have a duty to report it to the insurance co. then, yes it probably will affect your premium.

But isn't there an outstanding prosecution until they have taken the course? What happens if they agree to take a course in order to avoid the points, then never actually take the course. Are they then not prosecuted?

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#16 02-06-13 17:55:18

brod
Banned
Registered: 20-03-13
Posts: 694

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Sorry Watson have to agree with everyone else sad to close, your fault.
When younger I did a similar thing, never been on a bike since sad

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#17 02-06-13 18:06:59

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

But he will have to declare the accident.

Not to mention some scum bag insurance companies are now asking about awareness course attendance.  grrrrr!

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#18 02-06-13 18:52:21

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Triker wrote:

If you take part in a Driver Awareness course you are not required to report an offence to your insurance company. When you attend for the course the tutor will advise you NOT to report it to your insurance company.

Sorry Triker, not correct.

ACPO have issued strict instructions to Service Providers (the ones who deliver the courses) that tutors offer NO advice to clients.

Whether the client informs their insurer is a matter between those two parties only.

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#19 02-06-13 20:13:58

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: 24-10-11
Posts: 861

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Triker wrote:
trunkmonkey wrote:
Triker wrote:

If you take part in a Driver Awareness course you are not required to report an offence to your insurance company. When you attend for the course the tutor will advise you NOT to report it to your insurance company.

Sorry Triker, not correct.

ACPO have issued strict instructions to Service Providers (the ones who deliver the courses) that tutors offer NO advice to clients.

Whether the client informs their insurer is a matter between those two parties only.

Sorry too TM. Unless they have changed tack since........... On the one I attended last year the service provider 'TCC group' made a point of telling everyone NOT to inform the insurance company.

They have changed tack. At least one insurer (Admiral) now requires disclosure of courses.

Whether you need to report these things in mid-term (rather than at renewal) will depend on the terms of your policy.

In any event, ACPO are wise to stop Service Providers giving advice in areas outside their expertise.

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#20 02-06-13 20:30:09

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Triker wrote:
trunkmonkey wrote:
Triker wrote:

If you take part in a Driver Awareness course you are not required to report an offence to your insurance company. When you attend for the course the tutor will advise you NOT to report it to your insurance company.

Sorry Triker, not correct.

ACPO have issued strict instructions to Service Providers (the ones who deliver the courses) that tutors offer NO advice to clients.

Whether the client informs their insurer is a matter between those two parties only.

Sorry too TM. Unless they have changed tack since........... On the one I attended last year the service provider 'TCC group' made a point of telling everyone NOT to inform the insurance company.

I know. It caused no end of problem, not just for TTC. It was happening nationally. Clients were being told not to inform insurers they were attending a course.
Then they were involved in another collision and insurers became aware of the course and were invalidating insurances.

Formal complaints were received by Service Providers who sought advice from ACPO.
Their instructions are very clear. To choose to disclose an incident or not is a matter for the client alone. A trainer is neither qualified or in a position to offer advice.

If the question arises in a course today, be it any of the NDORS courses, the trainers will apologise but state they cannot offer advice.

Last edited by trunkmonkey (02-06-13 20:31:36)

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#21 02-06-13 20:30:37

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,302

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Hi
Kaf has made the point that this is a crash not a reported infringement which can also result un a DA course
The advice has changed certainly it used to be that non crash reports were not reportable to insurance co but that advice was changed, not just for DA but also for SA courses; in fact I think it was the high number of SA clients that spurred the insurance business to start asking.

Last edited by pegasus (02-06-13 20:31:15)

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#22 03-06-13 06:16:35

la.monikita
Verified Member
From: SE LONDON / KENT
Registered: 12-03-05
Posts: 3,064

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Blindspot wrote:
ratty wrote:

..... but I could not tell when I was on 'slippery' tyres

Well all I can say, as a DAS qualified motorcycle trainer, in response to that, ratty, is that you have been lucky to have got away with it for years.

I watched a customer of the dealership whose premises I was using as a training area ride his brand new Kawasaki out of the dealership and right turn onto the main road and accelerate quite hard because he had left it a bit late. 

He clearly wasn't ready for the power delivery and did not know about the slickness of new tyres because his back end whipped round and the bike fell on top of him.

Broken brake lever and indicator, bent footpeg and badly scored fairing.  Oh and a right leg broken in two places.

We ran out into the road, hit the stop switch, lifted the bike off him and sent for the ambulance. In hospital for two weeks.

He has learned about slippery tyres the hard way.

Riders have to understand everything about motorcycles to stay safe on them and, incidentally, that is why I would never buy a second hand machine unless it has had a chassis alignment test.

Good link Rob.

BS

To that one we need to add "COLD new tyres" Don't' warm up the rubber and won't like the grip...


"What is necessary to change a person is to change his awareness of himself."
Abraham Maslow

21st Century Women http://www.loisontheloose.com/my-advent … /the-team/

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#23 03-06-13 07:12:17

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

Triker wrote:

If you take part in a Driver Awareness course you are not required to report an offence to your insurance company. When you attend for the course the tutor will advise you NOT to report it to your insurance company.

As TM has correctly stated, it is not for the presenter to advise or tell the clients anything about their insurance policies. I have 5 cars insured with a couple of different insurance companies and I often ask the companies about this. Some say they have to be told, some say they don't. Some say attending a course will effect the persons insurance, some say it does not. I have it in writing from Direct Line that I have to notify them of any outstanding prosecutions. My understanding, and that of some lawyers, barristers and people in the insurance industry I have asked about this, is that until a client has passed a course they have an outstanding prosecution pending against them. After all, what if the client pays for the course but never actually takes it, they would be prosecuted for the offence. There is an outstanding prosecution until the client is told there is not or until they can no longer be prosecuted and that is when they have completed their course. As has also been mentioned, there is also an argument that the insurance company must be told as soon as someone knows they have an outstanding prosecution and that is when they get the letter telling them that they are going to be prosecuted because that is when they know that their relevant facts have changed, not telling the company after the course or prosecution. It's down to the individual's agreement with their insurance company and I would suggest that the only way to find out is for someone to ask their individual insurance company directly because the answer varies with different companies.  It is not down to ACPO and it is certainly not down to individual course providers or presenters to make up what they put forward as 'facts'. The problem is that if this information was widely know it is possible that less people would sign up for the courses and it is not in the course provider's or ACPO's interests for this to happen. Lots of people think that their insurers will never find out if they have been on courses so they don't tell them. Insurance relies on a legal principle of Utmost Good Faith which means that both parties are open and honest with each other, it does not rely on the principle of 'I'm not going to tell them and they can't find out anyway'.

I have been involved in these courses for a few years now and some of the absolute rubbish I hear some of the presenters putting forward as factual make me cringe at times.

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#24 03-06-13 07:34:50

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

pegasus wrote:

Hi
Kaf has made the point that this is a crash not a reported infringement which can also result un a DA course
The advice has changed certainly it used to be that non crash reports were not reportable to insurance co but that advice was changed, not just for DA but also for SA courses; in fact I think it was the high number of SA clients that spurred the insurance business to start asking.

My understanding of this is that someone is only offered a DA course as an alternative to being prosecuted for certain offences. For a course to be offered there has to be sufficient evidence to prosecute the driver or rider if they refuse a course. If someone has been involved in a crash surely an offence has been committed for which one or more of those involved could be prosecuted and the offender is offered the choice of a course or prosecution. If someone has not been involved in a crash but the manner of their driving is such that they have been offered a DA course there still has to have been an offence committed by the driver to be offered a course. People who have not done anything wrong are not offered courses and people who can not be prosecuted are not offered courses. People take these courses because of the threat of prosecution and increased insurance costs if they do not take the course. They don't take them because it might be a good idea. I don't understand the underlined bit above. Why would someone have to report to their insurance company that they have been involved in a minor crash but would not have to report that they had been involved in a possibly more serious offence which did not involve a crash?

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#25 03-06-13 13:51:13

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: just had a motorcycle accident whos at fault??

This shows need to read your policy carefully.

They just about all are clear on the need to report any accident.

They are also pretty clear on reporting any convictions.

They are not all,as clear in terms of impending prosecutions.

Ratty has clearly had some advice and I will not argue with that.

But, unless the policy contains a definition of 'impending prosecution' and makes it clear that such a term includes being offered a course, then it is not unreasonable for a policyholder to act in good faith and not notify when offered a course that they intend to complete.

In laymans terms, they might honestly not consider that they have a prosecution impending.

Unless ins co makes it really clear or asks the specific question, it is likely that the ombudsman would come down on the side of the customer.

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