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#26 22-11-12 20:18:15

Triplea35
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-12
Posts: 496

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

My understanding is that 'angled start' is a term used on the motorcycle test.
The controlled stop is the term now used for the entire set forward manoevre.
In my earlier post I refered to it as controlled stop/angled start to prevent confusion and that is how I explain it and teach it to my pupils.
From my experience the fact that the pupil pulls up too far back is not marked although all other elements of the pulling up and moving away are.
I say this as I have regularly witnessed examiners instructing the pupil, 'move forward a little more' 'thats enough' etc which surely they wouldn't be doing if the distance was marked.

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22-11-12 20:18:15

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Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...




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#27 22-11-12 20:55:01

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: 24-10-11
Posts: 861

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Triplea35 wrote:

My understanding is that 'angled start' is a term used on the motorcycle test.
The controlled stop is the term now used for the entire set forward manoevre.
In my earlier post I refered to it as controlled stop/angled start to prevent confusion and that is how I explain it and teach it to my pupils.
From my experience the fact that the pupil pulls up too far back is not marked although all other elements of the pulling up and moving away are.
I say this as I have regularly witnessed examiners instructing the pupil, 'move forward a little more' 'thats enough' etc which surely they wouldn't be doing if the distance was marked.

Yes, that's my experience too.

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#28 22-11-12 21:28:43

Promanade
Guest

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

martin Williams wrote:

. So where is it marked if the pupil pulls up to far back from the parked car?

Erm!! wait a minute i will have to think about that one!!!!!!

Last edited by Promanade (22-11-12 21:29:03)


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#29 22-11-12 21:43:49

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Promanade wrote:
martin Williams wrote:

. So where is it marked if the pupil pulls up to far back from the parked car?

Erm!! wait a minute i will have to think about that one!!!!!!

Ha Ha very funny. The point i was trying to make was why do they call it a controlled stop when in fact it's the same as a normal stop as it does not matter where you stop as long as its a SCALP?

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#30 22-11-12 23:02:48

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 838

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Triplea35 wrote:

Maz , no disrespect but was this one of the 4 tests you have sat in on in 24 years, or are you just going on the pupils account?

Certainly in my area the starts of all independent drives have fairly long approach roads to the first junction so usually plenty of room to pull over before it starts.

However the start of the independent drive can often be from a controlled stop/angle start or a hill start.

Your account that the Examiner was specifically telling the pupil to pull up 'before this car' would suggest that examiner was instructing the pupil to carry out the controlled stop element, so the fault arising from that and perhaps nothing to do with the independent drive.

Firstly Tripplea35 I am not on a witch-hunt, but am concerned about this ONE ID route out of the many dozens conducted with my candidates since ID began.

I did not sit in on this test but sat in on the detailed debrief given by the ex on this one and only S/F, and then a drive to the road concerned with the pupil on the way home.

The pupil was asked to pull up on the left immediately after turning into an acute angled left side road, there was no ideal place to stop without stopping too close to the junction or across a driveway due to parked cars, the pupil had decided to continue further up the road to a better place as I have advised in such situations if they are not happy to stop sooner (unbeknownst to the pupil; but the ex would be fully aware, further along the road after the parked cars is a bus stop and a public entrance to a pub/restaurant, so to pass these would mean passing the first road on the right which is junction one on the ID map) but the examiner insisted on stopping before the parked cars (obviously to not miss the first road on his map), due to the close proximity to stopping after turning there was not enough time for the reapplication of the left signal which would have only just cancelled, to timely signal the intention to pull up to the following car, resulting in the car behind getting "trapped" as described by the examiner. A serious fault for mirrors before changing speed was recorded. The pupil was then shown the ID map which commenced taking the first road immediately on the right.

Although I try not to labour test routes except for the quirky bits, I have taken all other pupils on this same route and all without exception have driven on and passed the first road on the right to find a safe place to pull up, on subsequent trials where I have strongly insisted they stop before the first parked car they have stopped awkwardly at best and have caused effect to any following vehicle.

It is my opinion that this specific map should not be used, and any other mapped route that requires the examiner to stop a candidate in a specific place with insufficient flexibility built in.

Maz.

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#31 23-11-12 04:15:32

Triplea35
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-12
Posts: 496

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Martin Williams wrote: 'The point i was trying to make was why do they call it a controlled stop when in fact it's the same as a normal stop as it does not matter where you stop as long as its a SCALP?'

From my observations I now teach that SCALP is not an issue on the stopping element of the 'controlled stop' manoevre. The fact that the examiner directs the pupil to stop at a specific point takes responsibility for SCALP away from the pupil. I have observed many directed instructions to stop that would have incurred  a driving fault if done when doing the normal stopping exercise. Minor hesitations such as stopping too early due to dropped  kerbs are always 'overriden' by the examiner.

Too much consideration/hesitation as to SCALP can take too much focus away from stopping in a safe and timely manner. I see many controlled stops where the identified vehicle is just beyond a left hand junction so timing of signal is a critical issue. Similarly they are often pulled up virtually opposite a junction to the right so observations on moving off are critical so as to prevent a serious or dangerous from a missed blindspot check. 

Maz wrote : 'Firstly Tripplea35 I am not on a witch-hunt, but am concerned about this ONE ID route out of the many dozens conducted with my candidates since ID began'.....
'It is my opinion that this specific map should not be used, and any other mapped route that requires the examiner to stop a candidate in a specific place with insufficient flexibility built in'
.

Fair enough Maz, it was just that your original post begged the question that it may have been a 'controlled stop' issue, which has in anycase created some healthy discussion smile  Remember though that the post was referring to the maps which are not now routinely shown, up until recently offered, and even more recently in my experience are not even offered/mentioned anymore. It is not likely to reoslve your issues with the one particular ID route though as they are using the same verbal instructions which the maps supposedly helped to clarify. If I had witnessed this type of incident particularly on more than one occasion I would be considering making representations to the TCM.

Wessex wrote: 'An angle start has been with us and in the Driver's Manual (Before D-TES) long before 2002.  The Angle Start was always used as was the Hill Start as an exercise but like has been said was re-designated a manoeuvre with the implementation of the ID.  However, like other manoeuvres they don't announce it as such and just say drive on when safe etc'.

Yes I appreciate the angled start has been around for almost ever! My point was that of the two set manoevring exrcises  on test, the forward manoevre incorporating an angled start is now referred to as the 'controlled stop' by the DSA at present. I refer to it on here and to my pupils as controlled stop/angle start. I agree it is not referred to by name on test and many of my pupils cant remember what the  'controlled stop or angled start' is called and I quite frankly don't care as long as they take all the key elements of the manoevre into consideration. However in my experience the other manoevre, a reversing exercise,  is always announced! Are we such world's apart?

Last edited by Triplea35 (23-11-12 04:43:10)

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#32 24-11-12 09:44:45

robcooling
Verified Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 02-04-09
Posts: 1,451
Website

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Regards the independent driving I've never had any real problem with it. I have, however, had PLENTY of pupils get lost and go the wrong way - but all have successfully managed to either re-route or go the wrong way safely.

Hold that thought, I had one fail as he botched his independent drive and attempted to join the M1! I'd forgotten about that one.


Rob

http://www.appledriving.co.uk - Driving Lessons in Nottingham

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#33 24-11-12 11:37:43

Loony
Verified Member
Registered: 11-04-06
Posts: 93

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

The Angle start is a legal requirement of the test and will be conducted on every car B test.
There is no box on the DL25 to mark it. It is recorded in the survey box "H".
The controlled stop section is used for the E Stop on car tests, but its for LGV tests where the examiner will ask the candidate to pull up at a specified place.


The older I get ..................... The better I was!

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#34 22-02-13 19:17:44

Saint_Albans_ADI
Member
From: Saint Albans Hertfordshire
Registered: 19-02-13
Posts: 30
Website

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

I like my ipad app for the independent drive diagrams .....it was cheep app and it is tax deductible  hey ho if I do not use it as much I might still use it for drawing some routes


Driving Lessons in and around Saint Albans Hertfordshire
www.i-passed.co.uk

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#35 23-02-13 08:51:37

martin_t
Verified Member
Registered: 30-12-06
Posts: 357

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

Are your DEs still using the diagrams?

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#36 23-02-13 09:36:06

christhedrummer
Verified Member
Registered: 18-10-06
Posts: 1,163
Website

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

They have them and offer the candidate to see them if they would like to...

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#37 23-02-13 13:05:30

martin_t
Verified Member
Registered: 30-12-06
Posts: 357

Re: More problems since changes with the diagrams...

They don't usually offer them at the DTC I usually use, unless the candidate is looking particularly confused

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