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#1 19-02-13 21:04:12

glenmornan
Member
Registered: 19-02-13
Posts: 4

Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence

Hi,

New to the forum.

Can somebody please settle my dilemma? I have C1 category acquired by grandfather rights on my pre 1997 car licence ( I have never passed an HGV/LGV test). I passed the PCV test in December 2005 on an automatic bus, and have been employed as a bus driver since that time. For some reason I do not have Restriction code 78 (automatic only) on my D category. All of the vehicles I drive are automatic, but there was a time when we had a manual vehicle in the fleet. I never undertook to drive it as I didn't believe I had full manual entitlement.

Recently, one of my colleagues suggested that my bus licence may have been upgraded on account of my C1 entitlement. Despite the fact I don't believe that is the case I cannot find any clear answer on the subject. It's of no great consequence as I'm approaching retirement age, and it's doubtful whether I'll renew my PCV again. However, I'm willing to bet that some others are in precisely the same "grey" area that I have been in. Just to clarify matters, I never passed my car test until 1985 when I was in my 30s, so I don't appear to have any ancient rights or other entitlements.

There is an obvious danger that some drivers may be tempted to drive manual vehicles in such a situation, or have DVLA got it spot on. I doubt it!

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19-02-13 21:04:12

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Re: Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence



#2 19-02-13 21:39:17

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,656

Re: Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence

On your photo card licence you should have 78 after the dates.

On the counter part you will also have D in the provisional entitlement section which will not have a restriction code as this is a provisional entitlement to drive a manual bus.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#3 19-02-13 22:26:30

glenmornan
Member
Registered: 19-02-13
Posts: 4

Re: Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence

Hi,

As you have stated, there is no code 78 on my counterpart, but there is also no code 78 on my photo licence at all. It used to be the case that you needed a Class 2 HGV pass to upgrade an automatic bus licence to manual (class 3 was not sufficient), and that's why I was suspicious of my colleague's advice about the C1 being an upgrade. My understanding in modern speak is that I would require to pass category C to upgrade my bus licence to manual, or take another practical in a manual bus, and I'm running out of years to be bothered with that.

DVLA needs to get the whole manual/automatic bus gearbox thing sorted out. As far as I am aware no British manufacturer has made a standard production bus with a manual gearbox for about 40 years. In fact, it has only been the coaching side of things that has allowed the situation to perpetuate. Also, according to what I've read, on my CAR licence I can drive a bus with a crash type gearbox so long as it's over 30 years old, there are not more than 8 passengers, and it's not for hire or reward (no training, L plates, supervision, only 8 brave souls if I could find any!). However, I am allowed to carry 80 odd passengers at a time on a daily basis with a "second rate" automatic only bus licence. Something is drastically wrong here.

It would appear that DVLA has obviously made a mistake, but as I'll not be driving anything but automatics until my current PCV expires, then I'll not bother contacting them in case they make another error.

Thanks for the feedback. It was the result I was expecting.

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#4 20-02-13 06:38:54

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,656

Re: Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence

Not like the DVLA to mess up.  lol

From what I have been told on the grapevine later this year passing in an automatic lorry will gain a manual lorry licence if the person holds a manual car licence. Which is pretty stupid as cars don't have splitter gear boxes. So we could have class 1 lorry drivers who have never changed gear prior to their driving test faced with 16 gears in a manual lorry! To be fair I cannot remember the last time I got into a lorry and found a clutch pedal!

When I passed my auto bus test I could drive 100 people around in a 3 axle double decker but I could not drive a 16 seat transit minibus.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#5 20-02-13 06:57:39

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence

Yeah I have been told the same, If you hold a manual cat B and pass in a Auto Cat D you will automatically get manual D, same for LGV!!!! theres gonna be some wrecked gearboxes and incidents me thinks! wink

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#6 20-02-13 07:52:21

glenmornan
Member
Registered: 19-02-13
Posts: 4

Re: Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence

Yes, good old DVLA has triumphed again!

I'm led to believe that their latest proposal will bring us into line with other EU countries, where a manual pass in any category will automatically give manual entitlement throughout. The mention of splitter gearboxes is interesting. I have no experience of these, but they are definitely a subject for the usual "us and them" conversations between older bus/coach drivers and those of us who have only been driving for a few years. However, there is no separate test for a splitter gearbox vehicle?

The daft thing is that I am old enough to have driven Bedford TK size vehicles with manual gearboxes, no synchromesh on 1st gear, along with air operated brakes and handbrakes on my C1 car licence.

I'm glad I'm in my 60s and about to say goodbye to everything but my humble car licence.

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#7 20-02-13 09:44:20

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence

DVLA simply forgot to put the 78 code on the licence but that does not mean you have D manual

You do have D1 manual because the C1 manual upgraded the D1 auto

You could take the D4 medical at age 70 if you wish to keep the pre 1997 C1 C1E D1 D1E categories for another 3 years (BE remains as long as B is valid)

The D need a D4 medical annually from age 65 but if you just took the age 70 D4 medical then D would become valid again for a year


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#8 20-02-13 22:15:47

glenmornan
Member
Registered: 19-02-13
Posts: 4

Re: Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence

Thanks ROG

I suspected from the outset that DVLA had made an error, and that I probably did not have manual D entitlement. If I want to keep class D I'll have to renew again in 2015 when I'm 63. To be honest, I've had my fill of the traffic on today's roads and it's my intention just to let the entitlement pass. Modern day bus driving is not a happy place to be at any age. I was a bus conductor (complete with green PSV conductor's badge and paper licence) in the early 1970s, and the job has changed out of all recognition since that time.

In these days of claim culture, company policy dictates that we have to sit for ages at bus stops waiting for all of our passengers to be seated before we move off. Similarly they are advised to wait until the bus stops before leaving their seats. A fair number of our passengers these days are elderly with mobility issues, and it can take some of them a few minutes to board and/or alight. Some of us are also unfortunate enough to be obliged to drive at ridiculously low speeds around hazards and roundabouts for fear of activating one of the dreaded "big brother" amber or red flashing lights on our dashboard display.

Other road users have quickly realised that the bus, which used to be a mere inconvenience to them, is now a major hazard to be overtaken at any cost. And I'm sorry to say that includes other bus, coach, and lorry drivers, not just the average motorist. The number of times I have sat waiting to pull away from a bus stop watching cyclists, and motor vehicles of all shapes and sizes overtake me into the path of oncoming traffic on single carriageway two way roads is frightening. The name of the game is "Beat the bus". Some of them would rather take their chances with a 38 ton oncoming artic than let the bus pull away from the stop. Our Polish drivers were having real problems with that when they first came over, as it is an offence to fail to give precedence to a bus pulling away from a bus stop in Poland.

I know that in the late 1960s, when the erstwhile London Transport trained it's bus drivers with tests carried out by company examiners, the unwritten rule was that test candidates were expected to allow the first two vehicles to overtake, then they were to put the bus in motion and force any other overtakers to stop. Any who didn't were failed on the basis that they showed undue hesitation and weren't likely to make efficient drivers in city traffic. I know this technique is still carried out by some desperado bus drivers, but any incident which occurs as a result is captured on the bus CCTV.

Suffice to say that if anybody is daft enough to renew a bus licence past the age of 65, let alone 70, then so be it. I'll be quite happy to plod along in my little car doing what everybody else does.

Anyone for a game of "Beat the bus"?

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#9 20-02-13 23:30:43

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,303

Re: Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence

Hi

Suffice to say that if anybody is daft enough to renew a bus licence past the age of 65, let alone 70, then so be it. I'll be quite happy to plod along in my little car doing what everybody else does.

Can't comment on keeping a vocation D or D1, but I made sure I kept my D1 code101 and C1 categories after my 70th by having the appropriate medical and using the necessary application form, which is NOT the one DVLA send just before yoyur 70th birthday.

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#10 21-02-13 12:01:22

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence

pegasus wrote:

Hi

Suffice to say that if anybody is daft enough to renew a bus licence past the age of 65, let alone 70, then so be it. I'll be quite happy to plod along in my little car doing what everybody else does.

Can't comment on keeping a vocation D or D1, but I made sure I kept my D1 code101 and C1 categories after my 70th by having the appropriate medical and using the necessary application form, which is NOT the one DVLA send just before yoyur 70th birthday.

The one they send at age 70 is the self certifying medical for the B/BE categories etc

Needs the D4 medical form for any C or D categories - that can be downloaded from the internet (in colour only)

Last edited by (ROG) (21-02-13 12:05:00)


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#11 21-02-13 17:44:44

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,303

Re: Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence

Hi Rog

Unless they have the medical and use the vocatiojnal form they WILL have their grandfather rights groups removed.
The don't have to have cpc because they haven't passed the vocational test but they may want to drive a 7.5tonne or a Minibus for a school/college or voluntary organisation.
I drive a college one on a sect 19 but with a 101 restriction.

Last edited by pegasus (21-02-13 17:45:17)

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#12 21-02-13 17:57:47

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence

pegasus wrote:

Hi Rog

Unless they have the medical and use the vocatiojnal form they WILL have their grandfather rights groups removed.
The don't have to have cpc because they haven't passed the vocational test but they may want to drive a 7.5tonne or a Minibus for a school/college or voluntary organisation.
I drive a college one on a sect 19 but with a 101 restriction.

I never said the categories would be retained so have you mis-read my posts ?

Any categories that disappear because of noot taking the D4 medical can be got back by passing the D4 at any time

B+E does not require the D4 medical no matter how it was obtained - if that was the bit you were referring to .....


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Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#13 21-02-13 18:03:00

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,303

Re: Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence

Hi Rog
Apologies, I read your #10 as contrary to my #09

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#14 21-02-13 18:08:30

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Class C1 prior to 1997 and Automatic D licence

pegasus wrote:

Hi Rog
Apologies, I read your #10 as contrary to my #09

I have mis-read posts in the past and continue to do so at times so I know where you are coming from


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Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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