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#26 17-12-12 17:44:54

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: SPEEDING

Graham as has been stated above, a car derived van is something that has a MLW of UPTO 2 tonnes and is derived from a car chassis. Yours fit that category so you are subject to van speed limits!

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17-12-12 17:44:54

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Re: SPEEDING




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#27 17-12-12 18:42:20

BDofNI
Member
From: Belfast / Lurgan
Registered: 19-10-12
Posts: 18
Website

Re: SPEEDING

trunkmonkey wrote:
BDofNI wrote:

If it was me I would get the specification of the Bipper Tepee and compare them with the Bipper "van", I'm guessing there are very little difference.
Then I would contest the ticket in court and ask the officer who issued the ticket if he would have given the same ticket to someone driving the Bipper Tepee.
He will say no as the Bipper Tepee is a car and not a van, I would then ask him to explain the differences between the two.
May not work but its worth a go!

I would not go along with that advice.

As I said earlier, Excess Speed is an 'absolute offence', it is irrelevant that the driver knew or didn't know the speed limit for the vehicle.
All the police have to prove is the speed limit for the road, the speed limit for the vehicle and the fact that limit was exceeded.

For the OP: The fact that you use your van socially rather than for business is not relevant. The speed limit is for the class of vehicle, not the use of the vehicle.
If I had 12 kids and bought a minibus to cart them around as the family transport, it is still a minibus.


That wasn't "advice" that I was giving, just my opinion on what I would do in this situation.
What I would be questioning is the classification of the vehicle.
Doing 72mph in a 70mph zone is well within the margin of error.


IAM Member

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#28 17-12-12 18:56:38

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: SPEEDING

Doing 72mph in a 70mph zone is well within the margin of error

maybe, but the max speed limit for his van was only 60mph

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#29 17-12-12 21:04:22

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: SPEEDING

BDofNI wrote:
trunkmonkey wrote:
BDofNI wrote:

If it was me I would get the specification of the Bipper Tepee and compare them with the Bipper "van", I'm guessing there are very little difference.
Then I would contest the ticket in court and ask the officer who issued the ticket if he would have given the same ticket to someone driving the Bipper Tepee.
He will say no as the Bipper Tepee is a car and not a van, I would then ask him to explain the differences between the two.
May not work but its worth a go!

I would not go along with that advice.

As I said earlier, Excess Speed is an 'absolute offence', it is irrelevant that the driver knew or didn't know the speed limit for the vehicle.
All the police have to prove is the speed limit for the road, the speed limit for the vehicle and the fact that limit was exceeded.

For the OP: The fact that you use your van socially rather than for business is not relevant. The speed limit is for the class of vehicle, not the use of the vehicle.
If I had 12 kids and bought a minibus to cart them around as the family transport, it is still a minibus.


That wasn't "advice" that I was giving, just my opinion on what I would do in this situation.
What I would be questioning is the classification of the vehicle.
Doing 72mph in a 70mph zone is well within the margin of error.

Even Peugeot agree it is a van.
They are in talks with SMMT at the moment to try and get it re-classified.

I understand why the OP is aggrieved, but the fact remains, at the moment it is a van and subject to 60mph.
72mph gets a Speed Awareness Course. I know what I'd do.

The additional problem is you can really only contest this by pleading Not Guilty.
Not that it's a foregone conclusion, but were you to be found guilty, the penalties are substantially more than a Fixed Penalty of 60.
Not forgetting the 2k solicitors fees if you get professional advice.

The law is outdated. Vans in 1984 were exactly that - vans. Very basic and there to do a job. Today they have all the functions of a modern car, except rear vision is restricted.

Simpler to amend the law, remove 'car-derived van' and replace with 'van GVW not exceeding 2000kgs'.

Everyone is happy, unless you have a Ford Transit Connect where even the smallest model is over 2000kgs.
On Speed Awareness Courses every Connect driver thought they could do the same speed as a car.

Last edited by trunkmonkey (17-12-12 21:30:10)

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#30 17-12-12 21:12:52

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,325
Website

Re: SPEEDING

For the Bipper to be a car derived van, it must have been derived from a car.  ie the car has to come first, which is then 'converted' into a van.

Unless I am mistaken, it was the Bipper VAN which was produced first and the Tepee was derived FROM the van.  In which case it CANNOT have been derived from the car as that did not exist when the van was developed.

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#31 22-12-12 16:07:38

GRAHAM GEORGE
Member
Registered: 15-12-12
Posts: 12

Re: SPEEDING

Now then Gents and Ladies.

I have had an apolgy from the police camera unit and all charges dropped!   

My van is under 2 tonne laden weight as I have said before !

My van has no windows in the back

I have to imform DVLA it is a car deliverd van as it did not say that on the log book!

I have wrote to my MP as this is not right for all drivers and I will keep this going to get it sorted correctly my MP has forwared my email to Stephe Hammond MP PARL.UNDER SEC.AT THE TRANSP.DEPT. smile

I promise will keep you updated as this needs to get sorted

My last van was a Nemo simalar to the Blipper

I can drive at 70mph on the dual carriegeway smile

The officer I dealt with did say this is very confusing case ( as with others? )

So thanks for the help from the positive people and the maral of this is never give up!

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#32 23-12-12 13:06:08

Daveyboy
Verified Member
From: Nr Alford, Lincolnshire
Registered: 25-01-09
Posts: 377

Re: SPEEDING

Well done for seeing this through, the law is a mine field and always open to interpretation.

Unfortunately you never seen to get a reply from a minister, they just hand to the relevant department.

Last edited by Daveyboy (23-12-12 13:11:47)

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#33 24-12-12 12:29:36

ralge
Verified Member
From: Sheffield
Registered: 10-01-07
Posts: 320

Re: SPEEDING

Well done, indeed, for battling through this ... Although it is quite clear what the law states: to qualify for a car's limit on NSL roads a vehicle must be BOTH under 2-tonnes gvw and car-derived.


DSA Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Dip, PTLLS, Safed for Vans, NDAC/Speed Awareness on-road trainer, RoSPA RoAD Test Examiner.

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#34 25-12-12 03:51:06

GRAHAM GEORGE
Member
Registered: 15-12-12
Posts: 12

Re: SPEEDING

Thanks fpr the feed back....BUT it seems the law can make mistakes also....the story is what it says on the log book is not always what the vehicle is !!!
DVLA had one thing and when I spoke to the Peugoet dealers they had another ???!!!
This was checked by the police and I have now posted my log book to get it changed to what the van is ...also no weight was on the log book.
This is /was a very confusing issue for all including the police
Merry Xmas all

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#35 25-12-12 11:13:02

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,325
Website

Re: SPEEDING

The law doesn't make mistakes, the law is the law.

People interpreting it make mistakes.

Unless the specs of this vehicle are put to the test in court, what you have is an opinion.  An important opinion as it has saved you points!  but opinion none the less.

You will never get to the bottom of whether it is or is not a car derived van, but who cares, you got the right result for you. Well done.

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#36 26-12-12 06:47:17

GRAHAM GEORGE
Member
Registered: 15-12-12
Posts: 12

Re: SPEEDING

yes you are right people make mistakes IF the correct definition was put in the log book THIS WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED I am not lucky just correct!

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#37 26-12-12 11:39:35

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: SPEEDING

I'd wait until the V5 comes back and then post the comment.


It is the DVLA you are dealing with. hmm

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#38 27-12-12 04:09:45

GRAHAM GEORGE
Member
Registered: 15-12-12
Posts: 12

Re: SPEEDING

fair comment BUT I have spoke to them already. roll

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#39 27-12-12 04:12:28

GRAHAM GEORGE
Member
Registered: 15-12-12
Posts: 12

Re: SPEEDING

sorry I should have said on another web site it states that some dealers when selling a new vehicle JUST put in what they think it is,not realising the upset this can/has caused,this is what finaly saw me through the catagary of MY van wink

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#40 27-12-12 21:28:46

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: SPEEDING

GRAHAM GEORGE wrote:

yes you are right people make mistakes IF the correct definition was put in the log book THIS WOULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED I am not lucky just correct!

IF you had not been speeding this would not have happened!

I do not know of anywhere on the public road that a driver can drive at over 70mph, which you were doing.

There are lots of things which are not written on 'log books' which it is the driver's responsibility to know which you apparently didn't.

You are very good at pointing the finger at others when ultimately it is your responsibility to know, how about taking at least some responsibility for what happened? In my opinion you are not correct, you are just very lucky.

Some posts ago I asked if you work in the driver training industry, would you mind giving an answer please?

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#41 01-01-13 23:34:03

BB Driving School
Member
Registered: 22-02-12
Posts: 30
Website

Re: SPEEDING

Well done Graham for seeing it through.  Wonder how much money they have made through this mistake.

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#42 02-01-13 08:41:57

GRAHAM GEORGE
Member
Registered: 15-12-12
Posts: 12

Re: SPEEDING

Hi, in reply to some of the negitive questions

1. No, I am a trainer for guys going offshore
2. Highway code re speeding says 2 things a. up to 7.500 you can drive at 60mph on a dual carriageway
UNDER 2TONNEas my van is  as I have said beforeyou can drive up to 70mph on a dual carriageway!
3.Ok I was driving at 72mph ...was the police cameras unit gun correct?because my beeeper in my van is set at 70mph at loud ! cant believe I would not have heard it!

Guys look at the positives here there is something wrong with what you can and cant do and I am trying to get this corrected...even the speed camera unit ( now ) know this
.
As I have said before most people just except this rather than pay a vast amount to a solicitor

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#43 02-01-13 10:58:54

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: SPEEDING

GRAHAM GEORGE wrote:

Hi, in reply to some of the negitive questions

1. No, I am a trainer for guys going offshore
2. Highway code re speeding says 2 things a. up to 7.500 you can drive at 60mph on a dual carriageway
UNDER 2TONNEas my van is  as I have said beforeyou can drive up to 70mph on a dual carriageway!
3.Ok I was driving at 72mph ...was the police cameras unit gun correct?because my beeeper in my van is set at 70mph at loud ! cant believe I would not have heard it!

Guys look at the positives here there is something wrong with what you can and cant do and I am trying to get this corrected...even the speed camera unit ( now ) know this
.
As I have said before most people just except this rather than pay a vast amount to a solicitor

1. If you are a trainer I am surprised by your thinking! You misunderstood a regulation so it is someone else's fault. That appears to me to be a strange attitude for someone who trains others to work in very dangerous environments. Do you train people to read the rules, forget or miss out the bits which they don't like or don't understand or just make assumptions, then blame someone else when it goes wrong?

2. If you are going to quote the Highway Code at least quote it accurately.

The code states that for 'Cars & motorcycles (including car-derived vans up to 2 tonnes maximum laden weight)' the national speed limit on dual carriageways is 70mph. Now from your initial post you know your vehicle is not a car, you know it is a van. You have, possibly understandably, assumed that it is a car derived van when in fact it is a van derived car so the 2 tonnes bit is irrelevant. The vehicle has to be car derived AND under 2 tonnes, your vehicle does not fall into this category.

3. Starts with 'Ok I was driving at 72mph...' then questions accuracy of equipment on the grounds that you can't believe that you missed hearing your warning beeeper! To me this reads as They must be wrong because I can't believe that I may have missed something. So just how accurate is your beeeper?

I agree with the last bit of your post though, most people do accept that when they make a mistake they have to pay the fine. They do not need to pay a vast amount to a solicitor to try and get away with it.

I know we are going round in circles here and no doubt we will have to agree to disagree on this.

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#44 02-01-13 17:08:47

GRAHAM GEORGE
Member
Registered: 15-12-12
Posts: 12

Re: SPEEDING

OK YOU WIN..I AM NOT GOING TO CUMUNICATE WITH YOU ANY LONGER you are obvios one of these people that is always right!

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#45 02-01-13 17:25:08

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: SPEEDING

GRAHAM GEORGE wrote:

OK YOU WIN..I AM NOT GOING TO CUMUNICATE WITH YOU ANY LONGER you are obvios one of these people that is always right!

I KNOW that Ratty is 100% correct with points 1 and 2


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#46 02-01-13 18:08:44

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: SPEEDING

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

specifically on that site:  Most vans are under 7.5 tonnes laden (loaded) weight and must follow the speed limits for goods vehicles of the same weight.

Until you manage to change the law you own and drive a van, as you have admitted in several posts.

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#47 02-01-13 21:36:24

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: SPEEDING

GRAHAM GEORGE wrote:

OK YOU WIN..I AM NOT GOING TO CUMUNICATE WITH YOU ANY LONGER you are obvios one of these people that is always right!

Sort of proves my point really!

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#48 04-01-13 05:25:32

GRAHAM GEORGE
Member
Registered: 15-12-12
Posts: 12

Re: SPEEDING

yes BUTsome are  under 2 tonne that makes the difference  ...read the code gents all of it not part of it !:rolleyes:

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#49 04-01-13 09:17:33

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: SPEEDING

GRAHAM GEORGE wrote:

yes BUTsome are  under 2 tonne that makes the difference  ...read the code gents all of it not part of it !:rolleyes:

So that a van has the same speed limits as a car then not only must it be under 2 tonnes but must also be a van derived from a car design and its the second part of that which you seem to keep missing out


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#50 07-01-13 03:16:18

GRAHAM GEORGE
Member
Registered: 15-12-12
Posts: 12

Re: SPEEDING

The back doors have windows and there is a back folding down bench seat,so it is a ?????

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