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#1 21-12-12 22:59:03

hayjay2112
Member
From: chester
Registered: 21-11-12
Posts: 27
Website

CT using coaching and straight 6's

Hi Guys

I am writing this to share my experience of this as i know some have you have been asking the question. I have just had my check test and thought i would use coaching techniques...this is how it went. before that, a little bit of background first. I have only been doing this for 3 years, but have been working hard with further training, such as RoSPA and Tutors test, Fleet training (although the coaching side of it with that particular company only consisted of about two hours!!! But still did it) I received that dreaded letter to say that it was 5 days before christmas!! Great! I received the standards that the dsa are putting forward and how they want to aim towards coaching or a more 'client centred approach'. I wanted to try and input this on to the test:

It was at 8.40am so no chance of getting a willing pupil to have someone sit in the back, so it looks like its going to be role play! Oh well, it has its benefits and consequences!!!! Anyway, have decided to do pass plus mod 3, Rural Road as i can bring some of my RoSPA training in and also it has a bit of meat about the subject.

Examiner was late out (good start, didnt help the nerves) Got to the car and after the initial intro from him (flashback to part 3!!!) I ask a couple of the standard questions, How long since passed? Any experience on own or with previous instructor on lanes....and of course the answer came back as no not really. (Didnt think it would be that easy!!) I then settled in and explained briefly that i would be talking through and hopefully raising awareness and confidence on driving them. Explained about IPSGA, also saying that i would be concentrating mainly on the Position and Speed element. Then would be going through the others on the road if he felt comfortable. (Objectives set!!)

Talked to him about Speed first and mentioned about limit point analysis, Also asked him about what info he might expect....decided it was running on a little so then said lets get moving. As soon as we left he played a fault straight away...signal before door mirror. I asked him what the BENEFIT was of checking before the signal, he couldnt really give an answer but before i could get much more out of him we are into the lanes straight away!!! I said for him to take it easy and drive within his own constraints (thought i would try and minimise that aspect at least) he started going into gutter so gave him ref point with mirrors, and said that so long as its clear ahead then no issue with straddling the line, asked him the benefit. At this point i did feel like i wasnt that in control as i was trying to get my words out and felt like i was teaching a learner!!

I got him to pull up and asked him how he felt, he did understand about limit point so i gave that to him to do. I covered the signal error while we stopped and asked him to imagine a scenario. That seemed to work.

Position next, that worked quite well on the next section, stopped him again, asked how he felt, then spoke about keeping both hands on steering whilst braking then changing gear when speed is correct, that was difficult to get him to understand whilst not going to much into tyre grip. (Time getting on!!!) Moved off again, he started doing as i wanted but still kept doing a couple of things.

Next thing i knew we only had about five mins left and we were still at least ten minutes out!!!!! (AAAARRRRGGGHHH oh well at least i can get a 4) On way back decided to just throw some random questions and asked him what benefits were of doing certain things, also what the consequences were. Got back to the test centre but just before he turned in, he put his hand on the gear to change early again!!!! aarrrghh i still mentioned it though. Parked up and was about to do recap but he stopped me and said he pretty much knew what and how i would do it so if i was happy the he would mark based on that. (yeah whatever!!!! just go, feel slightly down now)

5 mins later he gets back in.....6 across the board!!!!! WOOHOOO!!!!

He was pleased with everything, asked him about the coaching and he said thats what helped me gain the 6! I coached where i could and recognised the gap in his knowledge so i filled it then coached later to confirm it. He said to many people spend too long asking question after question trying to draw the info out, in a classroom you have the time, however on the road you dont so you need to fill it, thats where the 'imagine' comes into it. Thank goodness thats over. What was interesting, he did say a couple of things about the check test and how its changing, which i will post later, as i seemed to have rambled on a bit!!!

I do apologise!

I hope this helps people any way

Last edited by hayjay2112 (21-12-12 23:12:06)

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21-12-12 22:59:03

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Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's



#2 22-12-12 18:11:52

hayjay2112
Member
From: chester
Registered: 21-11-12
Posts: 27
Website

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

Hiya Triker,

Thanks, point 1) He seemed to be going into the the side then going over the white line, i first asked him to use the centre line running throught the bottom corner of front windscreen, but that only works if the road is wide enough, which it wasnt in this case, so said to use the mirrors and align himself so he has the same distance between edge of road and white line.....this also gets him looking into mirrors as well. Regarding straddling, If the road is straight enough and clear then there is no issue with going slightly over the white line towards the crown of the road, keeps him out of the pot holes etc, but as a bend comes then make sure he understands to get back towards his side......but then go into position on bends with him. The other thing to bear in mind is that if there is a left junction (blind) or crossroads (blind) then ask if they can assess the risk and where the safest place would be in that situation.

Point 2) Im not too sure as, i have been using terms such as benefit, consequence, how are you feeling etc for a while now. Teaching....is telling, then to confirm you ask a direct question. For example, you tell them to use tyres and tarmac because of various reasons, then to confirm at end of session ask them again...Can you remember why?

Coaching....What is the consequence do you think for stopping too close to the vehicle in front? If they cant answer then say, imagine that car breaks down, what will happen? basically get them to come up with the answer, but give them a scenario.

As far as what would happen to the result? I dont know, I would like to think i would have still come out with the same result?? But who knows with the DSA, I did speak to an Instructor the other week who had his, he did as normal but the examiner (the same one) did say that it was good, however for the next one he will need to adopt coaching.

Hope this helps, and sorry to make it sound as if you dont know, but this is the easiest way for me to explain.

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#3 22-12-12 23:11:33

hayjay2112
Member
From: chester
Registered: 21-11-12
Posts: 27
Website

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

From what I understand of it...coaching has been a method used more for adult learning. I have been reading about a theorist named Kolb who tells more about why it works. He has devised a learning cycle which is very useful to use with your pupils to determine the best way they learn. I certainly think using coaching works in certain places but you must also be able to teach them when you have to as you dont have time on the road. Try coaching someone the consequences of pulling of from a roundabout too slowly whilst there!!! Hahaha!!

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#4 23-12-12 07:32:51

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

I'd never heard of Mr Kolb before reading this, but I looked it up:

kolb's experiential learning theory (learning styles) model: -

Kolb's model therefore works on two levels - a four-stage cycle:

1.Concrete Experience - (CE)
2.Reflective Observation - (RO)
3.Abstract Conceptualization - (AC)
4.Active Experimentation - (AE)
and a four-type definition of learning styles, (each representing the combination of two preferred styles, rather like a two-by-two matrix of the four-stage cycle styles, as illustrated below), for which Kolb used the terms:
1.Diverging (CE/RO)
2.Assimilating (AC/RO)
3.Converging (AC/AE)
4.Accommodating (CE/AE)

Jeez, there's some big words in there. 

My  'cycle of learning' is to  tell them how to do it, let them have a go, see if they understand what they are doing (Q&A), and then let them practice.
Mine isn't experiential theory though, it's proven to work.

Why do people have to make simple things so complicated?

Last edited by Roadmaster (23-12-12 07:37:11)

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#5 23-12-12 08:37:59

hayjay2112
Member
From: chester
Registered: 21-11-12
Posts: 27
Website

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

Hahaha....true.

I was teaching in a previous life then went into adult learning, it's interesting as it can help with how you great your pupil, e.g. Do you give more demos, or start by giving a thorough explanation   or by giving a short brief then just guide straight away and explain as you go along. It can help to determine how to treat the pupil......I find it interesting anyway, and to a degree it help oops me.

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#6 23-12-12 09:40:28

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

Roadmaster wrote:

Why do people have to make simple things so complicated?

Is it because it's a way to make money out of ADIs?

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#7 23-12-12 10:43:51

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

To simplify Kolbs ELC,(experiential learning cycle)   

WHAT, Identification phase,
SO WHAT, is the interpretation phase!
NOW WHAT, is the action phase,

So if you ask your questions in this manner you will complete the ELC, its a lot simpler than the above!

Last edited by daz6215 (23-12-12 10:46:50)

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#8 23-12-12 10:50:52

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

Can I just ask, before this completely turns into a coaching/teaching discussion, what do people think about the choice of the use of IPSGA and the bolder positioning across the centre line?
Apparently the Examiner was OK with it?

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#9 23-12-12 10:59:16

Triplea35
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-12
Posts: 502

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

daz6215 wrote:

To simplify Kolbs ELC,(experiential learning cycle)   

WHAT, Identification phase,
SO WHAT, is the interpretation phase!
NOW WHAT, is the action phase,

So if you ask your questions in this manner you will complete the ELC, its a lot simpler than the above!


Sounds similar to,  WHAT,( Identicication)
                            WHY   (Analyse)
                            HOW   (Remedial)

Just different words!!  smile  The don't differentiate coaching from instruction. Call me old school but I  believe good tuition is a mixture of both!

As hayjay did in his check test!!!!

BIG CONGRATULATIONS!!

Last edited by Triplea35 (23-12-12 11:01:21)

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#10 23-12-12 10:59:36

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

Theres nothing wrong with using IPSGA it is essentially the same as MSMPSL, but I wouldn't advise joe public to offside centre markings and I would be surprised if DSA would advocate this as it goes against their own literature.

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#11 23-12-12 11:05:11

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

/

Triplea35 wrote:
daz6215 wrote:

To simplify Kolbs ELC,(experiential learning cycle)   

WHAT, Identification phase,
SO WHAT, is the interpretation phase!
NOW WHAT, is the action phase,

So if you ask your questions in this manner you will complete the ELC, its a lot simpler than the above!


Sounds similar to,  WHAT,( Identicication)
                            WHY   (Analyse)
                            HOW   (Remedial)

Just different words!!  smile  The don't differentiate coaching from teaching. Call me old school but I good instruction is a mixture of both!

As hayjay did in his check test!!!!

BIG CONGRATULATIONS!!

Your correct, but you need to choose your words carefully, as in WHY, the word Why can often be taken the wrong way, with negative connotations and put up barriers to learning, the How can still be the SO WHAT as an example How will you take this forward? you don't have to use the words WHAT, SO WHAT and NOW WHAT if that is any clearer!

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#12 23-12-12 18:09:51

hayjay2112
Member
From: chester
Registered: 21-11-12
Posts: 27
Website

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

daz6215 wrote:

Theres nothing wrong with using IPSGA it is essentially the same as MSMPSL, but I wouldn't advise joe public to offside centre markings and I would be surprised if DSA would advocate this as it goes against their own literature.

Since doing my RoSPA tutors stuff, i find it easier to teach IPSGA from the beginning as it is less to think about, this also allows more thought in the process, as in dont apply the signal if you dont need to. Which I must say, i do enjoy the looks on examiners faces when the pupils dont use it if no one is there, especially at the end of the road. However if i get someone who has had a few with someone else, then depending on how close they are to the test then I do give them the same reasonings but dont change it too much, as that close to the test i dont want to confuse matters too much, so if the signal goes on then so be it.

In regards to going towards the crown of the road....then if its safe, whats the problem? as the way I see it, depending on the road conditions, then it could be more unsafe on the left due to potholes etc.

I really think the result of all this is the ability to assess the students learning style and change your approach to suit their need to get more of a positive result.

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#13 23-12-12 18:21:31

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

''as in dont apply the signal if you dont need to''

and most road users don't use the signal whether they need to or not.  hmm

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#14 23-12-12 18:35:31

hayjay2112
Member
From: chester
Registered: 21-11-12
Posts: 27
Website

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

Very true Evan

I liked to think that my guys would not use it due to good thinking apart from not bothering hahahah,

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#15 23-12-12 18:39:59

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

hayjay2112 wrote:

In regards to going towards the crown of the road....then if its safe, whats the problem? as the way I see it, depending on the road conditions, then it could be more unsafe on the left due to potholes etc.

I really think the result of all this is the ability to assess the students learning style and change your approach to suit their need to get more of a positive result.


There is no problem with going towards the crown of the road if safe and there is an advantage in doing so i.e. to maintain view or increase! Have DSA changed their stance on this??

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#16 23-12-12 18:50:10

hayjay2112
Member
From: chester
Registered: 21-11-12
Posts: 27
Website

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

daz6215 wrote:



There is no problem with going towards the crown of the road if safe and there is an advantage in doing so i.e. to maintain view or increase! Have DSA changed their stance on this??

Agreed....I know i'm still relatively new to all this, but i'm just asking those questions without, I hope, sounding like a know it all. Question........Does it state in Highway code that we must stay on the left? (unless road markings say) And surely if the pupils dont infringe the Highway Code then surely the DSA shouldnt have a problem with it?

Still trying to figure out what makes the exminers tick!!! hahaha

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#17 23-12-12 19:35:59

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203

Im sure there is more on this in Driving The Essential Skills

Last edited by daz6215 (23-12-12 19:38:06)

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#18 24-12-12 16:53:29

hayjay2112
Member
From: chester
Registered: 21-11-12
Posts: 27
Website

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

Hiya Wessex,

My thoughts exactly on the IPSGA as also when i was taught it was MSPSG then LADA ...faar too much to remember in my eyes...it also instigates a more robotic way of doing things. I find the IPSGA will make the candidate more aware as the information phase does run throughtout. In regards to the signal element, I am sticking too my guns on this one, again it means that they think more about what they are doing. It also means that they will have to look into the mirrors before the signal therefore hopefully the mirrors are less likely to drop after the test. As for the examiners i do find that most of them do not raise the question, it maybe the very odd few who might because of lack of understanding maybe???? Or knowledge such as roadcraft?? However on a roundabout, i would teach a pupil the same as anyone who is doing RoSPA (apart from straight lining) If noone around then dont, however the likely hood of that happening during test is minimal, unless a mini roundabout then they wont as the nature of the road they are placed.

Also Dual carriageway, I would always get them not too if they dont need it as well if changing lanes...

OOOOOOOHHHHHHHH this is soo much fun!!!!!

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#19 24-12-12 17:49:06

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

I simply use the term when teaching: ''Look who's there, tell them what you are doing''. Or is that a bit too simplistic.  smile

I believe a lot of the crap that pupils get taught is due to bad training of the Instructors, and poor interpretation of what instructors think the examiners want to see on test, but that could possibly open up another can of worms.

Last edited by Evan (24-12-12 17:54:17)

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#20 24-12-12 18:50:33

hayjay2112
Member
From: chester
Registered: 21-11-12
Posts: 27
Website

Re: CT using coaching and straight 6's

I agree....do you beleive that there are those out there who only teach the test? Some of the people who i have had over to me there thoughts on the scenario ahead are very low standard....

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