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#1 11-06-12 17:59:10

finch
Member
Registered: 17-09-09
Posts: 168

Off Road Training

Thinking of doing a Off-Road course to enhance my CV not sure wether to do Lantra or BORDA course any advice please.

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11-06-12 17:59:10

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Re: Off Road Training



#2 11-06-12 18:53:58

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,596

Re: Off Road Training

This is something I am also looking into so will be interested in any replies.

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#3 11-06-12 20:32:30

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,596

Re: Off Road Training

Wessex wrote:

Well who's that in your Avatar?  smile

Me lol, but I've not had any special training in off roading, just driving until you get stuck then winch yourself out.

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#4 01-07-12 08:59:56

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,596

Re: Off Road Training

I have made enquiries into the 4x4 off roading courses, in particular the 4 day course, at
http://www.protrax.co.uk/additionaltraining.aspx

Just got to get myself booked in now!

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#5 14-07-12 08:18:28

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Off Road Training

Just out of curiosity, if you do go on one of these courses which includes driver training, see if the instructors are ADIs. In my experience lots aren't.

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#6 14-07-12 18:52:44

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Off Road Training

They don't need to be ADI's. We've had this before.
They are specialist instructors delivering a specialised course. As long as they hold LANTRA or BORDA instructor badges, that's enough for me. I did my course in a forest in Dunkeld. The instructor was first class. I thought I knew a bit about Land Rovers but I was very impressed with what can be achieved.

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#7 14-07-12 20:17:09

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Off Road Training

I did the Land Rover Advanced and Instructor's courses and made an enquiry with the DSA about their instructors not being ADIs. The DSA dep chief examiner went along and took a course and decided that they did have to be ADIs. I took LR to court over this but they settled out of court and returned all costs rather than attend.

The DSA took the view that they were giving instruction in how to control the vehicle's speed and direction, this was therefore driving instruction and agreed with me that the LR instructors had to be qualified.

This was about 13 years ago so things might have changed.

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#8 14-07-12 23:26:57

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Off Road Training

This shows why debate is a wonderful tool.
You and I both did MPO courses.
First rule is to prove the offence.
Where did it take place?
It's the ROAD Traffic Act.
The offence has to take place on  road.

Only 2 offences generally, take place off road. They are to Drive elsewhere than on a road - normally trail bikes and, secondly. our power to examine a motor vehicle offered for sale.

It makes sense. You wouldn't expect a traffic man to wander onto Siverstone half way through a session and start asking for green badges.

If you disagree, pursue it. Take someone to court and get a stated case.

Last edited by trunkmonkey (14-07-12 23:28:02)

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#9 15-07-12 05:39:37

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Off Road Training

The RTA does not specify that the training has to be on a road, it just mentions paid instruction.

It was agreed by all concerned, including BMW's (they owned LR at the time) legal dept and the DSA that it was irrelevant that training was off road. It was paid instruction in the driving of a car and that was enough.

At the time the DSA's view was that any paid instruction had to take place inside the vehicle being driven so this ruled out single seaters at race tracks and theory lessons in classrooms. Everything else that we could think of at the time was in play.

As I said, I did pursue it but BMW did not want to do to court. The DSA was quite happy to and sent me a written report to back up their view.

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#10 15-07-12 09:10:18

Daveyboy
Verified Member
From: Nr Alford, Lincolnshire
Registered: 25-01-09
Posts: 377

Re: Off Road Training

Any court case taken by the individual, who had taken the course, would be pursued through the County Courts. County Court cases do not set legal precedence.

The reason DSA didn’t get involved, is because they are toothless. They only go after individuals who haven’t got the resources to defend a case.

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#11 15-07-12 09:51:48

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Off Road Training

That's very true.

I actually attended the course as a serving police officer. As the 'offence' had occurred in the police area where the factory is the prosecution would have to have gone through the local force but unfortunately the West Midlands police were not interested in doing so because of the very good discount LR were offering to them and they did not want to rock the boat. DSA knew there was police involvement and did supply a statement.

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#12 15-07-12 10:13:56

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Off Road Training

ratty wrote:

The RTA does not specify that the training has to be on a road, it just mentions paid instruction.

It was agreed by all concerned, including BMW's (they owned LR at the time) legal dept and the DSA that it was irrelevant that training was off road. It was paid instruction in the driving of a car and that was enough.

At the time the DSA's view was that any paid instruction had to take place inside the vehicle being driven so this ruled out single seaters at race tracks and theory lessons in classrooms. Everything else that we could think of at the time was in play.

As I said, I did pursue it but BMW did not want to do to court. The DSA was quite happy to and sent me a written report to back up their view.

The DSA though are not law makers. They may have made a single decision there but how can you then stick provisos on that it doesn't apply to single seaters?

On another forum some years ago an ADI wanted to have a 6th Form teacher reported for illegal instruction. He was delivering car maintenance classes which involved an in-car session to describe the steering wheel, clutch brakes etc.  Held solely on the school premises - a private area.

Have a read of Wilkinsons Road Traffic Offences regarding the venue for the offence.
Then have a read of Stones and the law of trespass.
I know that I'd get my *rse kicked by  my sergeant if I attempted to prove an offence that didn't exist instead of putting GV9's on artics.

I've tried to bottom this by writing to Andy Rice at the DSA Integrity team and asking how far he thought their powers stretched. He replied quoting S.123.
I replied to him "So I take it from your reply that you don't know". I didn't get a reply that time. 

As for your situation. As a policeman it's your job to take it to court. You had the opportunity. It isn't up to BMW,Land Rover or the DSA to just change policy. If you believed it to be an offence, every trainer should have been prosecuted and the respective companies for Aid and Abet. That's a difficult one when a point to prove is there has to be an offence.
Where do you  then stop? Is the driver expected to hold a licence, the vehicle display L plates have third party insurance. It's on a race track and has 4 slick tyres. There's 12 points for starters.
Sorry, it doesn't add up.

You think there's an offence.I don't.

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#13 15-07-12 14:17:14

MGM
Verified Member
From: Surrey
Registered: 24-10-11
Posts: 861

Re: Off Road Training

trunkmonkey wrote:

This shows why debate is a wonderful tool.
You and I both did MPO courses.
First rule is to prove the offence.
Where did it take place?
It's the ROAD Traffic Act.
The offence has to take place on  road.

Only 2 offences generally, take place off road. They are to Drive elsewhere than on a road - normally trail bikes and, secondly. our power to examine a motor vehicle offered for sale.

It makes sense. You wouldn't expect a traffic man to wander onto Siverstone half way through a session and start asking for green badges.

If you disagree, pursue it. Take someone to court and get a stated case.

I agree that the only way to resolve this would be in court, and that's unlikely to happen.

However, it's significant that almost every other section of the RTA specifies "on a road or other public place". The omission of this qualification from S123 indicates that parliament's intention was indeed to include off-road training.

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#14 15-07-12 15:02:26

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Off Road Training

MGM wrote:
trunkmonkey wrote:

This shows why debate is a wonderful tool.
You and I both did MPO courses.
First rule is to prove the offence.
Where did it take place?
It's the ROAD Traffic Act.
The offence has to take place on  road.

Only 2 offences generally, take place off road. They are to Drive elsewhere than on a road - normally trail bikes and, secondly. our power to examine a motor vehicle offered for sale.

It makes sense. You wouldn't expect a traffic man to wander onto Siverstone half way through a session and start asking for green badges.

If you disagree, pursue it. Take someone to court and get a stated case.

I agree that the only way to resolve this would be in court, and that's unlikely to happen.

However, it's significant that almost every other section of the RTA specifies "on a road or other public place". The omission of this qualification from S123 indicates that parliament's intention was indeed to include off-road training.

This point has been mentioned before and yes I agree that most include a road. However there are significant offences relating to seat belts, wearing of helmets and weighing of vehicles where a road is not directly mentioned and you would expect the offence only to be committed if on a road.
Rightly or wrongly, there is a general acceptance that the Road Traffic Act is designed to make roads safer and is only applicable to something defined as a road.

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#15 15-07-12 17:45:49

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Off Road Training

I can't remember if this came into it or not but part of the training was done at Eastnor Castle, I think that's how it's spelt, and I can't remember if it was open to the public or there was some access to the area.

If it is correct that Sect 123 does not apply off road, the extreme would be for a group of people just to buy or hire an area of land and teach driving there without taking any ADI exams, for some this could be cheaper than qualifying. Take payment for the off road training then offer to accompany the candidate for free for some on road practice. There are some off road areas set up as driving centres with roads and junctions marked out, I know this is a silly unrealistic extreme and I mention it as a conversation point as opposed to trying to sound clever or argumentative, but would someone have to be an ADI to instruct in this circumstance?

The DSA said that they were not interested in instruction given in single seaters because the instructor would not be in the car with the pupil.

As has been said, only a court can decide on this issue and it is unlikely that a case of this kind will ever get to court.

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#16 15-07-12 17:59:01

Daveyboy
Verified Member
From: Nr Alford, Lincolnshire
Registered: 25-01-09
Posts: 377

Re: Off Road Training

With the current changes that are proposed to happen within the profession, it would be a good idea when the new regulations are drawn up, that it was made clear what is and what is not included.

I always been of the opinion if the pupil pays money no matter whether the instructor receives it or not, then the instructor should be qualified.

Non ADI's; no CRB and no CT, no badge to pay for. Life would be so much easier without the DSA.

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#17 15-07-12 18:01:22

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Off Road Training

I wonder what type of insurance these off roaders have.  For tuition insurance it is a requirement that I am an ADI/PDI and that duals are fitted

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#18 15-07-12 19:14:54

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Off Road Training

Ratty,
I don't think your suggestion is silly or extreme. When I was learning to drive (with the police as a cadet), we had an off-road area of roads,junctions, roundabouts, ped crossings, parking bays, manoeuvring areas. If someone had enough money, it could be done - and I would argue, for payment and without being an ADI.
It needs sorting out one way or the other. I personally don't have a problem with the off-road groups. The ones I've met are skilful, highly motivated, very safety conscious and carry insurance premiums greater than mine. They have no gripe with the ADI sector as they have no interest in on-road training.

It's a ridiculous system where
A  Motor Cycles  -   No qualification needed to instruct
B  Car               -   Must be an ADI
B+E                  -   No qualification needed to instruct
C  LGV              -   No qualification needed to instruct
D  PCV              -  No qualification needed to instruct

Last edited by trunkmonkey (15-07-12 19:15:15)

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#19 15-07-12 20:10:39

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Off Road Training

Roadmaster wrote:

I wonder what type of insurance these off roaders have.  For tuition insurance it is a requirement that I am an ADI/PDI and that duals are fitted


I have no doubt that the likes of LR self insure so insurance is not a problem. I would be very interested to know how other smaller companies insure what they do though. I SUSPECT that they do not stress very much that instruction is being given as opposed to someone, in effect, just hiring their 4x4 to go for a drive and being directed.

Maybe someone on here who has had a course can help with this?

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#20 12-09-12 06:58:36

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Off Road Training

Apologies for coming late to this.

The law defines a road as a highway or any other road to which the public has access. Further defined in precedent as 'a definable way over which vehicles may pass'. So yes, the RTA and RSA (both of which concern ADI registration) do apply. The DSA have confirmed this is the case, however they have 'no appetite' for prosecution.

Regarding insurance, LR Experience are not LR themselves (though I'm not sure about Eastnor), they are a group of affiliated franchisees. I don't know if they self-insure through the franchise, or have their own insurance. Many farm based 'activity centres' are insured for 4x4 driving through NFU, however they would probably argue that they are not giving instruction or tuition which can be used away from the centre, rather 'direction' as Ratty suggests. As we undertake training in client's own vehicles usually, the insurance is their professional insurance and we are covered either with our own insurance or just for professional indemnity through the certificating body.

Unfortunately, neither BORDA, Lantra (certificating bodies) nor LR Experience require their instructors to be ADIs, though some of the companies (such as ourselves) who do provide this training do require this. There are some good instructors out there who aren't ADIs, but we feel it ensures both legality and a minimum standard of instruction. Lantra do require an 'instructional techniques course (usually PTLLS or similar), though I have found that this is rarely directly transferable to practical vehicle based tuition.

One thing I will say is that most of the courses out there are vague, and criteria (what little there is) of competence is applied subjectively. We're working to design a course which includes defined criteria, set standards and cover the whole of the H&S requirement (actually, most people in 4x4s damage themselves or others on-road, not off-road, due to the changes in handling characteristics of the vehicles).

Hope that helps.

Last edited by timmanwaringadi (12-09-12 07:00:54)

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