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#1 01-03-12 19:07:55

SlowGlen
Member
Registered: 01-03-12
Posts: 9

3 questions: diesel cars / emerging / roundabouts

I would be interested and grateful for any opinions and advice in relation to the following three questions:

1. I am learning in a Peugeot 1.4hdi. When turning right major to minor I struggle to decide when to:

(a) use first gear (generally for closed junctions);
(b) use second gear and maintain road speed above stall surge ie 10mph plus (often too fast); or
(c) use second gear and manage the anti stall surge and judder by slipping/riding the clutch.

2. When turning right from a minor to a major road when is it acceptable/allowed to drive halfway and attempt to get eye contact and negotiate and persuade someone to let you in? This question is premised on traffic being dense and fast flowing.

3. When waiting at a roundabout without traffic lights (at least from your road) how do you balance the issues of hesitance/progress with:

(a) being very aggresive in pulling away; and
(b) causing cars to alter speed ie brake?

The roundabouts I have in mind are in East London: Charlie Brown's / Beehive Lane / Redbridge roundabout (station approach).

As it is deemed a serious fault if your action causes someone to alter their speed or position how do you deal with these roundabout situations? My feelings so far is that you will need to pull away aggresively (smoothness comes second to safety in this case) and minimise the need for cars to adjust their speed too much or alter their position.

Thanks
SlowGlen

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01-03-12 19:07:55

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Re: 3 questions: diesel cars / emerging / roundabouts




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#2 01-03-12 20:37:18

hoylake
Verified Member
From: Heysham
Registered: 21-09-07
Posts: 1,435
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Re: 3 questions: diesel cars / emerging / roundabouts

1    this all comes down to judgement, the judgements you make are based on what you see. Also on your previous experience. If the junction has a restricted view and/or has been made narrow by parked cars, its better to go slow therefore use G1. If its the opposite stay G2 if you misjudge the width of new road slightly then slip the clutch in G2.

2 Not acceptable especially if the traffic is FAST FLOWING. If you meant traffic crawling, then still unacceptable, because you cannot  be sure that a car  on your left will comply and allow you priority. Priority cannot be taken only given. Entirely different if the motorist signals you. You must think of this: if you pull half way out and then are stuck unable to proceed and traffic from your R is held up. How would an examiner view this?  SERIOUS FAULT
Even worse; when an Emergency vehicle is approaching with 'blues and twos' on and you cannot move out of their way.

3A Once read an article by some police trainer who talked about a "pinch" of aggression. I would use a fast start to join a busy roundabout. Just a pinch mind.
B You need to judge speed and distance, if uncertain about one of these then play it safe and don't emerge, another gap WILL come, eventually.

Last edited by hoylake (01-03-12 22:10:34)


http://www.sophiesdrivinglancaster.co.uk
Adi & Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Gold

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#3 01-03-12 20:38:22

Lewinpeter1
Verified Member
From: Morpeth,Northumberland
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 803
Website

Re: 3 questions: diesel cars / emerging / roundabouts

Hi
1.1st if you need to stop,and usually 2nd if moving,if you are arriving too fast then SLOW DOWN.
2.It is NOT acceptable to pull out halfway unless the traffic allows this safely.Edge forward VERY slowly if necesary until someone takes pity.
3.I think you are using the wrong word:'aggresive' driving is not to be confused with positive driving.
Never make others alter speed,be prepared to wait for a safe gap.
Get better at moving off smoothly and quickly.[perhaps you are giving us a clue with your username big_smile
Peter


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#4 01-03-12 20:40:20

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: 3 questions: diesel cars / emerging / roundabouts

If a young man has written that post then I am well impressed !!

1 = a  better a little too slow and be in control than struggle to do other

2 = I would firstly try fixing on the eyes of approaching drivers but that failing I would edge out very slowly but NOT get to a point where others have to change speed or direction

3 = there are times where forcing others to EASE OFF ( not brake hard) is the only way
On test I would not do that unless the examiner suggests it - perhaps after you have made a comment


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#5 01-03-12 23:46:47

Terrier
Banned
From: Greater Manchester
Registered: 15-05-11
Posts: 657

Re: 3 questions: diesel cars / emerging / roundabouts

If an examiner has make a suggestion about how to proceed you will normally have failed the test at this stage, so I wouldn't rely on that.


ADI Development Greater Manchester & Cheshire Grade 6 ORDIT Approved
Cardington Grade A  RoSPA Gold
DSA External Trainer Certificate for Instructor Training

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#6 02-03-12 08:54:27

driverpete
Verified Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 06-02-06
Posts: 457

Re: 3 questions: diesel cars / emerging / roundabouts

Terrier wrote:

If an examiner has make a suggestion about how to proceed you will normally have failed the test at this stage

Not always though. I once sat in on a test where the candidate was struggling to emerge at a busy roundabout; traffic was simply blocking it and giving her no chance. Noting her frustration the examiner (a kindly old gent) said, "Sometimes we have to throw the Highway Code out of the window" and proceeded to talk her onto the roundabout. She passed.


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Retired RoSPA Approved Tutor
Retired NDAC & NDAS trainer
Retired ADI

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#7 02-03-12 10:31:02

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: 3 questions: diesel cars / emerging / roundabouts

driverpete wrote:
Terrier wrote:

If an examiner has make a suggestion about how to proceed you will normally have failed the test at this stage

Not always though. I once sat in on a test where the candidate was struggling to emerge at a busy roundabout; traffic was simply blocking it and giving her no chance. Noting her frustration the examiner (a kindly old gent) said, "Sometimes we have to throw the Highway Code out of the window" and proceeded to talk her onto the roundabout. She passed.

This has happened a lot of times on th LGV test

the trainee does right in waiting but the examiner intercedes and gives the candidate permission to cause others to ease off in order to enter a very busy roundabout

I think they say - you may cause slight inconvenience but not danger to others in order to proceed


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#8 02-03-12 18:46:59

SlowGlen
Member
Registered: 01-03-12
Posts: 9

Re: 3 questions: diesel cars / emerging / roundabouts

Thank you for all your advice and guidance. Here are my further thoughts:

Q1 I understand the answer to this conumdrum is principally one of judgment [and lots of experience will ensure this improves]. The main thing is that the revs must be kept above idle to prevent stall and revs will determine gear selection [unless slipping clutch in G2]. I have noticed that slowing down/braking and changing down to G2 a tad earlier does seem to allow the car to tolerate 1 or 2 mph less when slowing down. I think selecting G2 (a little earlier) at 12-15mph seems one way to go in order to help balance the car more. My ADI does not want me to over rely on using G1 or slip the clutch in G2 so I am trying to get the car slowed down enough and balanced when turning left into a minor road to safely turn in at 8mph. If I have to slow down further it will have to be clutch and brake together and G1 unless I slip the clutch in G2 and maintain revs above 800rpm by applying a little gas. Query is this approach applying separation then if situation/hazards appear develop BGOL??? ie unless you slip the clutch in G2 you will have to BGOL?

Q2 I can see the Blues and 2s point, however this is East London and invariable if you are not a little pushy you can wait forever [ i did a little experiment and  on 5 occassions the shortest wait for both sides to be clear was 7 minutes, longest was 11 minutes - not scientific I know but factual examples]. My ADI said after a few minutes of accessing the situation once the right is clear it is acceptable to pull halfway and negotiate with the traffic on the left. Of course, I could just ignore the DE and signal left and go left  big_smile  Can I not apply the 'inconvenience but not danger' approach here ie traffic from the left will be able to see from a long way off that I am obstructing their way and if they use acceleration sense I will more than likely have been let in by a courteous driver from the left? More guidance on this tricky situation would be appreciated.

Q3 I agree with the comments and approach of a pinch of aggression and the need [not routine or always necessary] to force others to EASE OFF [imperative to take into account road and weather conditions]. I think I will take a little time to assess the situation and explain what I am going to do to the DE and then wait for a suitable chance to enter the roundabout.

By the way ROG, I am a young man in terms of driving experience but an old man in terms of life experience.

Have a good weekend all.

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#9 02-03-12 20:34:53

Lewinpeter1
Verified Member
From: Morpeth,Northumberland
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 803
Website

Re: 3 questions: diesel cars / emerging / roundabouts

Hi
Why do you[or your adi]seem to have an issue with'feathering the clutch'in 2nd gear;this is essential at very low speed in a diesil.I can drive my diesil yaris with my foot on the brake and a feathered cluth if the situation warrants it.
Also there seems to be too much emphasis on the exact speed and rpm;who has time to look at these things in real life driving situations?
Just my thoughts.
Peter


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#10 21-03-12 18:41:30

SlowGlen
Member
Registered: 01-03-12
Posts: 9

Re: 3 questions: diesel cars / emerging / roundabouts

I have spoken again with my ADI regarding the issue of emerging from a minor road and turning right onto a major road. He has confirmed to me that he has spoken to several DE and a SE and the practice of moving halfway and blocking the road, once the right side is empty, is considered acceptable. How is this situation dealt with/ treated elsewhere by ADI's and DE's?

Further thoughts gratefully received.

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#11 22-03-12 18:09:40

SlowGlen
Member
Registered: 01-03-12
Posts: 9

Re: 3 questions: diesel cars / emerging / roundabouts

Thanks for your responses and advice.

Wessex - I am not sure how to take your advice  neutral
Are you saying doing something wrong can be right but just do not want to stick your neck above the parapit or is it a tongue in cheek comment?? Please enlighten ....

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#12 23-03-12 18:13:35

SlowGlen
Member
Registered: 01-03-12
Posts: 9

Re: 3 questions: diesel cars / emerging / roundabouts

Thank you to everyone for your opinions and advice.

Wessex - your last post helped and made complete sense. You were right about me having doubts. Although I think one possible reasoned answer is that by not pulling half way and waiting for an opportunity on both sides you may make the traffic behind you do something dangerous eg overtake you [I have had lots of experience where traffic builds up behind you in the minor road and several cars start horning. This then could pressurise you into mis-judging a safe gap on both sides.]

Therefore to prevent this safety should dictate how you interpret the rules [system]. Of course, if you hear the Blues and 2s you should hold off from pulling halfway. If you are already halfway, I think it is highly likely that someone will allow you in and thus the ES will not be impeded. You may also decide not to pull halfway if the traffic going right is solid and has not moved in a fare while. In that scenario you will block and hold-up the traffic from the left for longer than would otherwise be the case.

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#13 24-03-12 22:39:49

android
Verified Member
From: Dereham, Norfolk
Registered: 17-10-11
Posts: 182

Re: 3 questions: diesel cars / emerging / roundabouts

Totally with Wessex here. We refer to PRIORITIES these days. That's because it has, in more recent times, been decided that RIGHT OF WAY is misleading when collisions happen. BOTH parties have a duty to avoid a collision, therefore once a position has been taken by a road user the other must CEED their priority.

An obvious example is passing parked vehicles on a narrow road. You wait till the opportunity presents to use the opposite side of the carriageway, the oncoming traffic then has to CEED it's priority.

It is exactly the same in the example Wessex gives but, as he says, "...you are at right angles to them..."


Confucius say, "Opinion, like old man's dribble - Once out of mouth, no use to anyone."

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