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#1 23-04-11 21:28:34

triplea35
Guest

Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

Seriously thinking of starting a campaign to end, or seriously increase the limitations of, pink licences. Has anyone any knowledge of similar being tried before?

I and all my buddies chose not to go the pink route. It did not sit well with me that I should be driving around in a liveried vehicle impersonating a qualified instructor. Yes there is a pink licence but how many trainees tell their pupils they have not qualified and they might not be able to teach them legally in x amount of months/weeks.

Many national and large local driving schools are just exploiting PDI's and I can understand why many PDI's will go that route desperate for earning money but that does not make it right, so regulations should be put in place to prevent such exploitation in the first place

I believe that the amount of PDI's on the road giving paid instruction is a serious detriment to the driver instructor profession. I know some will qualify but many wont so what is the quality of instruction given. How does this reflect on the driver training industry.

If PDI's need to give lessons for practice for the Part 3 then perhaps they should have an ADI accompanying them at all times if they are doing it for reward. Otherwise take your sons/daughters and friends out in an unmarked car!!

I have read on hear of PDI's signing upto franchises and getting loads of work at cheap prices. So who are they robbing - green badge holders - and themselves possibly one day!

I have also had an approach some weeks ago from a PDI for some buddying help. He's since got in touch with me saying how he has ditched Red and now gone on a pink with a local school school well known for making ridiculous offers. He is getting plenty of work but has some serious reservations about the practices of the company and the additional training promised is totally inadequate.

Now I am keen to help anyone and would like to see the lad do well but who is benefitting from my assisistance. Yes the PDI, but also the school with dubious practices and which is creating a price war in the area. So with some reluctance I am seriously thinking of declining to assist.

If National campaigns havent worked how about local campaigns / advertising, signs on on vehicles etc. If anyone rings me for prices I always clearly warn them but just wonder how many more are totally ignorant of the facts when they ring these dubius companies.

Any views? Anyone want to support my campaign?

Thx

23-04-11 21:28:34

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Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!



#2 23-04-11 22:16:55

on board training
Guest

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

Hi,

I have strong opinions on the benefits of a pink licence if used properly.

Who is to say that an instructor who didn't go trainee route but got through a pt3 test is any better than a trainee - the one who qualifies without having gone trainee if not supported properly may well be worse than the trainee!!!!

Now there's a comment and food for thought.

Think of it more as an apprenticeship if done properly. There are a number of qualified ADIs out there worse than many trainees.

Brian


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#3 23-04-11 23:45:53

triplea35
Guest

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

Hi,

I have strong opinions on the benefits of a pink licence if used properly.

Thats exactly my point though Brian, from everything I see and hear the pink licence system is not being used properly.
Who is to say that an instructor who didn't go trainee route but got through a pt3 test is any better than a trainee - the one who qualifies without having gone trainee if not supported properly may well be worse than the trainee!!!!

The DSA say that the person who qualifies by passing Part 3, whether he has been a trainee or not, has displayed the competence to instruct. If we are not going to have faith in teh DSA qualification procedures then yes exactly - 'who is to say'Now there's a comment and food for thought.

Think of it more as an apprenticeship if done properly. There are a number of qualified ADIs out there worse than many trainees.

'If done properly' is again the key words and doesnt appear to be the case for the vast majority.There may be poor ADI's out there but they have at some time showed some degree of competence to instruct and are subject to check testing. Trainees whether good or bad have not shown this. So who is to judge other than the unsuspecting public 

Brian


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#4 24-04-11 07:28:09

lucy
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-06
Posts: 175
Website

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

As one who at one time had a pink licence I dont feel I can join you in this campaign.  I do however feel maybe the way it is used could be changed.  I didnt do stacks of hours as wanted to make sure I was ready for my part 3 and had time for digesting what I and my learners were doing, I also had plenty of time for training, and as I wasnt working full time was able to spend time with other instructors learning from them.  I feel this is partly why I was successful with my pink licence and used it as it should be used.  Yes I will admit I think there are plenty of PDI's out there teaching who probably shouldnt be but the part 3 will sort those out and soon enough they wont be working out there.  I think it's important that they get a chance to teach learners and learn from it themselves.

So not really sure how I'd change the system, maybe make sure they're only doing a set amount of hours per week, and that they are supervised more, or have to sit in lessons watching other instructors teach.

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#5 24-04-11 08:27:12

triplea35
Guest

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

Thanks Lucy
Your comment: ' Yes I will admit I think there are plenty of PDI's out there teaching who probably shouldnt be but the part 3 will sort those out and soon enough they wont be working out there'

Possibly! but there will then be a new bunch of pinks getting let loose on the unsuspecting public, thats how theses disreputable companies operate - on a high turnover of unsuspecting Joe Public who think that as they can  drive , driving instructing is an easy career path. Those that actually get on a pink may be the fortunate ones, consider all those PDi's who on the promises of being able to earn a quick and easy income on a pink  sign up and never even get as far as Part 1 and Part 2. Stopping the abuse of the pink, by abolishing it will protect theses people.

Unfortunately I posted the original message on three boards - this, ADI and ADItraining so looks like Im going to get a lot of flack!! Here's a reply that I just posted on teh ADI forum that I feel also addresses some of your comments:

Thx merlinsquest for your views. They are clearly not disimilar to my own.

Did you really need to go on a pink for six weeks though to gain valuable experience. I taught family/friends, both new and experienced drivers, for free. I found that teaching 'real' pupils was not at all like being able to deal with an examiner in the PST's. They were totally aware that I was not qualified and that I was getting as much benefit out of the sessions as they were. I also had 3 buddies who I got some extensive practising with. 'Buddies' are the way to go, at least we are not letting ourselves loose on the unsuspecting public. 

I agree that stringent controls and checks by the DSA would be highly beneficial. But is it likely to happen? Some companies will abuse the system, technically doing nothing wrong, as 
long as there are regulations in place which allow them to do so. For many years there were campaigns for people to 'belt up' but little heed was taken of them until legislation was introduced to make it compulsory. Now the vast majority of people buckle up without question and the regulations need little policing. Its the same with pink licences, unless regulations are in place to prevent abuse of the system it would be impossible to 'police' (stringent controls and checks).

I totally agree that it is not the PDI's fault, although I would question the suitabilty of some, if they are so niaive to go into some of theses undertakings without making the proper research. Abolishing or seriously  limiting the use of the pink will ultimately protect the PDI.     

Well theres another two pennorth! Not often I get on my high horse but when I do I'm like a dog with a bone!
Posted the orginal message on three boards so don't know how I am going to answer all the stick I get. I've only got today off and promised to cut the lawn!

#6 24-04-11 09:02:14

on board training
Guest

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

Hi triplea35,

I see you passed pt3 last year.

Do you work on your own or with a school and what other support have you had?

What have you done for your own training and development since then and have you had any word re your own check test?

How do you structure your own lessons and what paperwork or student records do you keep and give to your students?

Have you sat in with any other instructors since you qualified and if yes what were their experience?

How large is the lawn and what do you use? wink (hoping to do lawn myself today and maybe also give it a good rake)

Brian

#7 24-04-11 10:18:04

mdf0075
Member
From: Grays,Tilbury ect essex
Registered: 30-05-10
Posts: 92

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

Morning all  big_smile, hope you are enjoying the sun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am on a pink, but agree with most of what triplea has to say.
Since been on a pink i have worked full time but only doing aprox 4-5 hours a week, which is all i want to do.
This covers all my cost so im not out of pocket (apart from the fee for pink).

I have only been working for 4 weeks, but in that time ive had 10 hours with my trainer (all 1 to 1 in car).

So i feel im am using the pink to its best, but have to agree that i do feel that the pupils could b getting a better lesson with a ADI.

I am using them to help with my training and the 4 pupils i have all seem to be coming on well  big_smile big_smile big_smile.

But if i was to start again i would not take a pink, and just give FREE lessons.

Michael


part 1 - 98/54
part 1 - 98/62
part 2 - 4 minors
part 3 - pst2 5-5
check test -?

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#8 24-04-11 10:37:05

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

but have to agree that i do feel that the pupils could b getting a better lesson with a ADI.


Michael

Not necessarily, teaching is like any other skill, if you dont keep yourself sharp the performance will reflect!

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#9 24-04-11 13:24:39

triplea35
Guest

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

Hi triplea35,

I see you passed pt3 last year.

Do you work on your own or with a school and what other support have you had?

What have you done for your own training and development since then and have you had any word re your own check test?

How do you structure your own lessons and what paperwork or student records do you keep and give to your students?

Have you sat in with any other instructors since you qualified and if yes what were their experience?

How large is the lawn and what do you use? wink (hoping to do lawn myself today and maybe also give it a good rake)

Brian

Hi Brian,

Yes I just qualified in November.I am a sole independent. I have an excellent first time pass rate, I have already achieved a 0 faults and many other low faults. I record and keep every test result, am self critical and am trying to identify any recurring weaknesses in the test results.

I have maintained close contact (almost daily chats) with my training buddies, we meet up regularly, we have sat in on each others lessons to give each other feedback, and we assesss each others pupils by conducting mock tests. I have assisted with check test training  and two have been graded. My own is due in June, the worst that can happen, and possibly the best in terms of support, is that I receive an 'educational' and told to go away and work on my weaknesses and come back. Depending on the result I may seek some further training from an excellent trainer I am aware of who is a retired SDE

I subscribe to a number of  these forums and glean a lot of useful information and dismiss the chaff. I subscribe to the Blaine Walsh  driving-instructor.tv site so will also use this in my prepartion for Check Test.

I have had little contact with many other instructors and from what I have seen and heard at the TC before tests havent beeen particularly impressed. I always sit in on test so don't go for the obligatory 'perk' of a cup of coffee and a whinge about the state of the industry. I do that in my own time and not in the pupils!

I do not think that the  teaching  of the  actual 'mechanics'  of driving is at all  difficult. It is more of the encouragemnt/feedback and methods used  to increase self confidence and  to eradicate/reduce pre test nerves is what I am constantly focussing on and trying to improve. Possibly not the correct terminology but do you agree?

The rear lawn is 120ft x 35ft. I use electric with a few extensions. I use Veronne weedkiller on it as I find that the combined weed and feeds just make it grow far too fast again!! smile Still havent got it done yet though!! Calling it a lawn is being a bit ecoomical with the truth - like most pinks - probably!!

     


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#10 24-04-11 13:39:22

Luchell
Verified Member
From: Salisbury
Registered: 12-06-07
Posts: 1,661

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

Out of interest, when you say you assisted in check test training did you charge for it?

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#11 24-04-11 13:51:11

triplea35
Guest

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

No the check test training was/is just with my buddies. No payments have ever been involved.


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#12 26-04-11 22:17:02

JV
Verified Member
Registered: 21-10-10
Posts: 9
Website

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

I think like most things it depends on the person... i.e. how commited they are and morals etc. I had a pink licence and was serious about giving good tuition and making it through to my green badge asap. I worked probably 3-4 hours a day - would have been more if it wasnt for the diabolical company i was with at the time. When I think back now i feel i did a pretty good job but you can only learn as you go of course and i definitely made mistakes. I found the tuition i was receiving from the instructor college pretty poor too and i was muddling through and really learning as i went!!

So really i do agree training needs to be improved. Their must be loads of learners who have changed instructors due to being unhappy with their lessons and never even knowing their instructor wasnt even qualified! I'm sure i lost 1 or 2... its a bit unfair on them really but i guess it all boils down the money in the end, and not having the resources to shadow so many trainees

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#13 20-05-11 15:46:51

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

I have no problems with people learning to do a job to a high standard, I only disagree with them being paid for doing it when they have not been tested. I do not think that anyone who has not passed their part 3 test should be able to charge money for training.

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#14 22-05-11 19:24:44

bannerman
Member
Registered: 18-02-11
Posts: 145

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

I was on a Pink License doing about 10 hours a week it helped improve my skills & really glad i was able to take the Pink License .i think it is a seperate debate wether you tell the pupils & how much /if you charge

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#15 22-05-11 20:23:31

on board training
Guest

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

I have no problems with people learning to do a job to a high standard, I only disagree with them being paid for doing it when they have not been tested. I do not think that anyone who has not passed their part 3 test should be able to charge money for training.

Hi,

Think of it more as an apprenticeship - do apprentices get paid for the work they do?

Do probationary police officers get paid a good rate for what they do, yet are not signed off for two years - a bit different to the specials volunteering.

This is why it should be a proper structured apprenticeship or probationary period for driving instructors while they get paid.

Brian

#16 22-05-11 20:37:05

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

As I have said above, I have no problems at all with people learning how to do a job properly. I prepared for pt 3 by teaching a neighbour to drive but I did not charge her a penny for the instruction and I explained the situation in detail to her before we started.

I do not agree with using others to practice on without telling them beforehand and I certainly would not expect others to pay for my training without having been given the choice. I think that if someone is paying for a service it is reasonable for them to expect that the person giving that service is fully qualified to do so and can do so to a reasonable standard. Someone on a pink license is not fully qualified and if they are capable of doing the job to the required standard why have they not qualified?

Let's be honest here, a trainee instructor used a pink license for their own benefit, not for the benefit of their pupils. I think it is only fair to let the pupil know the situation beforehand and if, having full knowledge of the situation, they choose to go along with it great. I think it is morally and professionally wrong not to tell them that you are just training and using them to practice on and then charge them the same as a fully qualified instructor without them knowing.

The only issue here is money. If money was not changing hands there is nothing to suggest that the person giving the instruction would do a worse job or learn less. They are benefitting from someone else, probably unknowingly, paying for their training and I think this is wrong.

Obviously this is just my view of this and I'm sure that others will disagree.

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#17 22-05-11 20:54:29

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

Hi,

Think of it more as an apprenticeship - do apprentices get paid for the work they do?

Do probationary police officers get paid a good rate for what they do, yet are not signed off for two years - a bit different to the specials volunteering.

This is why it should be a proper structured apprenticeship or probationary period for driving instructors while they get paid.

Brian

Having been both an apprentice and a probationary police officer I can see a difference.

For the first 2 years of my engineering apprenticeship I was only allowed to make test pieces in the training school, I was not allowed to touch anything that was destined for production. Following this period, during which instructors examined ever thing I made, I was allowed onto the shop floor under very strict supervision. After all, I was using machinery which could very easily kill if things went wrong (ring any bells?) Over the next two years the supervision did decrease with time but the skilled person I was with was always within yards of me and was ALWAYS there to take control if required. For the first year of the four I was paid less than 20% of the wage of a skilled man, about 35% for the second year, about 50% for the third and about 60% for the final year. I also had to attend day release at a college for 12 1/2 hours one day per week so that I was learning theory and taking more external qualifications. Does this sound like a pink license to anyone?

As a police officer I had to attend a training college for 20 weeks learning theory then about 8 weeks on a street duties course walking the streets with an instructor before I could leave the station on my own. I was then quite restricted in what I was expected to do. It also took about 7 years service before I was being paid at the same as my more qualified and / or experienced colleagues.

Same as on the pink, I don't think so!

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#18 22-05-11 21:21:46

on board training
Guest

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

Hi Ratty,

But alas what we do even mum or dad or a suitably qualified licence holder can do so no comparison really as it is the way it is legislated for.

If they mean to make a real change in Road Safety and Driver Education it should be an apprenticeship or probationary period but only meaningful if the learners training has to be with an instructor.

Cheers,
   Brian

#19 22-05-11 21:35:54

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

Oh I agree with you.

Despite what some would have us believe, driving instruction is not rocket science. My mother in law has not driven more than twice in the last 25 years and she is as qualified as I am to sit in with a learner. But that does not make it right does it?

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#20 23-05-11 09:56:30

triplea35
Guest

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

As the iniator of this thread I would just like to confirm that I totally agree with Ratty  and he puts forward sound reasoning.

Brian (On Board Training)  I do not think that your observation that there is no comparison of a driving instructor  with the likes of a an apprentice/probationary Police Officer because anyone with  a full licence can accompany a learner is valid.

There is legislation in place which prevents, subject to enforcement, such people from taking reward from such instruction. Nor do these people generally drive around in a fully livered driving school vehicle giving the impression that they are no different to fully qualified instructors.

Perhaps some simple legislation such as preventing trainee instructors using liveried vehicles, and in addition to  the pink badge and 'L' plates displayed a 'T' plate could be  introduced to indicate a trainee instructor on board.

I do not think it would be long before the difference between a trainee and a qualified instructor  would be commonly understood and I am sure that on first approaches to us the general public would be more inquisitive on our level of qualification  rather than 'how much?'

#21 15-01-12 22:28:47

WillyO
Member
Registered: 12-11-10
Posts: 205

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

The problem with the "pink" over here in Northern Ireland more than not the system is abused. The trainees are not properly supervised. Very shortly it will be introduced here that anyone passing part (2) will only have the opportunity to have the issue of (2) trainee licences in their lifetime. A good call. As said in a previous post in my area, we know of 3 Adi's who took 9 years each to qualify.That seems the individual seemed happy enough "playing at being Adi's" and earning very good "pin money" they didn't need to worry about the "study" part of the trainee licence privilege. Willy.


A wise man does not need advice, But, only a fool won't take it.   Miam, DIAmond Advanced Test, DIAmond Special Test.

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#22 15-01-12 23:34:27

android
Verified Member
From: Dereham, Norfolk
Registered: 17-10-11
Posts: 182

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

You've resurrected a bit of an old dusty one there WillyO!

I am very surprised there were not more comments on this one though. Maybe it's an old chestnut and the regulars are bored with it, us 'Newbies' are unaware maybe.

I agree with the OP entirely and pink cards are seriously undermining the industry. Apprenticeship.... no.


Confucius say, "Opinion, like old man's dribble - Once out of mouth, no use to anyone."

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#23 16-01-12 19:31:18

reddragonbus
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 05-02-06
Posts: 1,653

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

The pink system is being abused by PDI's and the DSA not just schools.

It can be used properly and some schools do use it properly but some PDI's are beyond help. They get distracted with the idea they are an instructor and intent on making money not passing the part 3.

I took on a PDI who had previously failed the part 3 x3 with another school and then came back around, they took further training and I sponsored a 4th pink licence, they had health issues so applied for a 5th licence and then went up for the part 3, which they failed with 2/2, they then went back in a couple of weeks later against my advice having not turned up for training and failed with 2/2 again with the DSA regional manager in the back of the car, they then asked me for a 6th pink badge despite booking but not showing up for training.

I declined the request for a 6th badge and advised them to concentrate on passing part 3 rather than making money.

Needless to say I have never heard from this person again, they didn't bother to say goodbye or return my roof sign, but I saw their car liveried up a couple of weeks later with another school who must have been really desperate for an instructor in Edinburgh.


LGV PCV Instructor DVSA ADI Fleet

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#24 16-01-12 21:56:36

android
Verified Member
From: Dereham, Norfolk
Registered: 17-10-11
Posts: 182

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

You are a tower of patience reddragonbus.   yikes  big_smile


Confucius say, "Opinion, like old man's dribble - Once out of mouth, no use to anyone."

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#25 18-01-12 11:38:33

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: Campaign to end PINK Licences!!

Interesting attitudes towards people learning to become driving instructors. Its reminds me of the attitudes that some qualified drivers have towards learners. In this life we all have to learn some choose one way and some another, in driving instruction we all have to pass the part 3 test, some feel the need for the pink some don't.

Their are many very good instructors who passed using the pink and many who passed without it. The abuse of the pink is by the people who do the sponsoring because they do not undertake supervision and help with training, they should insist on the PDI having supervision and make sure that they do. The PDI if he/she does not comply, should lose the sponsorship of the company and the pink licence priviledge. It seems unfair to punish all pink licence holders for the actions of some. The actual scheme is very good if used properly, and can be a great benefit to aid teaching in the real world.

Last edited by Evan (18-01-12 12:07:22)

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