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#51 24-03-11 23:51:08

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: C1 Training

Hi,

Lind Report is 22 years out of date. Emergency Service Training has been watered down substantially in a lot of situations due to budgets and man power pressures and rarely do the emergency service drivers get refresher training to ensure a minimum level of safe driving.

My opinions,

Brian

Absolutely correct Brian.  Not the fault though, of the man at the coal face.

The Lind Report however isn't 22 years out of date. It's the best there is. TPAC evolved out of the Report. If anyone cares to read the ACPO Guidelines on Police Pursuits, I would defy them to say the police don't take this seriously. As an investigating officer, I've been on the wrong end of a lot of these incidents. They are not pleasant.

We used to place a lot of emphasis on Dr Sharp's book, Human Aspects of Police Driving. Arguably, it is more important than Roadcraft, which is merely a reference book. That rarely is mentioned now, apart from TPAC training.

The police are an easy target because they are high profile. Sometimes they get it wrong, they are human.

It must be wonderful to live in a world where you never make a mistake.

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24-03-11 23:51:08

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Re: C1 Training




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#52 25-03-11 06:18:39

on board training
Guest

Re: C1 Training

Absolutely correct Brian.  Not the fault though, of the man at the coal face.

The police are an easy target because they are high profile. Sometimes they get it wrong, they are human.

It must be wonderful to live in a world where you never make a mistake.

Hi, I have never said I or others don't make mistakes - if you knew me and were party to a discussion I had yesterday you would have heard me say and mean - 'we all make mistakes and i challenge anyone, driver, instructor or any other trainer to not make a mistake in any lesson or drive as we all see and interpret things differently in an ever developing classroom that is different everytime (i.e. the car). I have a certain respect for police and especially those at the top end of what they do in driving and driver training but many are not open to some changes and do think what they do is just about perfect and don't even contemplate that some of their 'instructional' techniques and practices are well outdated and are not as open to coaching and developing the driver for long term results. 

It is whether we are open to reflect on ourselves and others and learn from everything we do, or are part of, to use the experience as an opportunity to learn from the strengths and areas for improvement.

The police are not any easier a target, it is just they set themselves up on a pedestal at times and they are bound to get it wrong. Like you said, the police are dealing with a mix of different mental attitudes, thoughts and feelings behind why the individual is doing what they are doing while they are in the car. AND with many additional pressures and that is exactly why the drivers should get frequent refresher training which in most if not all forces, they don't.

I am aware that traffic officers in some areas will get an assessment/refresher at 5 yearly intervals - not really frequent enough for what they are doing, but i am also aware that due to the passion some have they will check on each others driving when on general patrol and 'kick' into demo drive mode and then give feedback to each other but i suspect this is a few rather than most.

For a general patrol panda driver to get a watered down course and then no refresher training until they maybe have a bump is not good enough, especially when some companies out there have embraced occupational road risk and do more frequent checks on their drivers.

The above is a serious health and safety FAIL and i am very surprised that the various federations have let it go as long as they have.

It doesn't help with some attitudes and beliefs within the police driving, especially some traffic officers, where there are opinions that they are perfect and that is down to the regime and training not necessarily the individuals.

I recall a former class 1 traffic instructor with years experience who attended one of our seminars we had with Stephen Haley of Mind Driving and he openly admitted that he had actually learned a few things, especially the bit 'part of every hazard you meet is you!' - something that had almost been drummed into police drivers was that everything else is an actual or potential hazard but not an emphasis that they were part of it.

Brian


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#53 25-03-11 07:54:15

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: C1 Training

trunkmonkey wrote:

Absolutely correct Brian.  Not the fault though, of the man at the coal face.

The police are an easy target because they are high profile. Sometimes they get it wrong, they are human.

It must be wonderful to live in a world where you never make a mistake.

Hi, I have never said I or others don't make mistakes - if you knew me and were party to a discussion I had yesterday you would have heard me say and mean - 'we all make mistakes and i challenge anyone, driver, instructor or any other trainer to not make a mistake in any lesson or drive as we all see and interpret things differently in an ever developing classroom that is different everytime (i.e. the car). I have a certain respect for police and especially those at the top end of what they do in driving and driver training but many are not open to some changes and do think what they do is just about perfect and don't even contemplate that some of their 'instructional' techniques and practices are well outdated and are not as open to coaching and developing the driver for long term results. 

It is whether we are open to reflect on ourselves and others and learn from everything we do, or are part of, to use the experience as an opportunity to learn from the strengths and areas for improvement.

The police are not any easier a target, it is just they set themselves up on a pedestal at times and they are bound to get it wrong. Like you said, the police are dealing with a mix of different mental attitudes, thoughts and feelings behind why the individual is doing what they are doing while they are in the car. AND with many additional pressures and that is exactly why the drivers should get frequent refresher training which in most if not all forces, they don't.

I am aware that traffic officers in some areas will get an assessment/refresher at 5 yearly intervals - not really frequent enough for what they are doing, but i am also aware that due to the passion some have they will check on each others driving when on general patrol and 'kick' into demo drive mode and then give feedback to each other but i suspect this is a few rather than most.

For a general patrol panda driver to get a watered down course and then no refresher training until they maybe have a bump is not good enough, especially when some companies out there have embraced occupational road risk and do more frequent checks on their drivers.

The above is a serious health and safety FAIL and i am very surprised that the various federations have let it go as long as they have.

It doesn't help with some attitudes and beliefs within the police driving, especially some traffic officers, where there are opinions that they are perfect and that is down to the regime and training not necessarily the individuals.

I recall a former class 1 traffic instructor with years experience who attended one of our seminars we had with Stephen Haley of Mind Driving and he openly admitted that he had actually learned a few things, especially the bit 'part of every hazard you meet is you!' - something that had almost been drummed into police drivers was that everything else is an actual or potential hazard but not an emphasis that they were part of it.

Brian

Brian,

The last sentence was not directed at you.

I'm fully aware of all your comments from the past and on this thread. I bought Stephen Haley's book as soon as it hit the shelves. I use it for reference all of the time. It is invaluable.

Interesting though, that you mention regular driving assessment and refresher training, whilst this industry is completely opposed to it.


I disagree that the training is out of date.If you can tell me the areas where, I'm happy to discuss them.

Millions of miles are covered every year, incident free.  It isn't directly the training at fault, or the lack of it. More than that, it's an attitude problem. Response driving is about focus. Focus on the drive, not on the incident. That's why they commentate.
On a response drive I used to engage the driver in conversation about anything other than driving. It didn't take long before mistakes were made. Back to the focus and standards went up. Hardly rocket science.

If you have a Chief Constable saying she is considering scrapping Driver Training because it is too expensive and it would be cheaper to pay out on a law suit then you have a problem.
Training is at the bottom of the list because of finances. Chief Constable's comment " I am responding to public demands. They want more police on the street. They've got them. They're not haring around in other police areas on driving courses". Hence, no refresher training.
TPAC is slightly different because you have a licence, valid for 2 years. No licence, No TPAC.

It's not going to change. 3 instructors at my old school have just been made redundant. When I started in the police there were 28 instructors. Now there are 7.

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#54 25-03-11 08:06:22

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: C1 Training

Are there more police driving incidents because there are now less traffic police so those trained for response are now trying to do the job (pursuit) that should be that of the traffic police?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#55 25-03-11 08:09:05

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: C1 Training

I think there are more police accidents than the other emergency services because you don't get ambulance and fire engine drivers driving one handed at 60 mph whilst using their other hand to operate their radio.

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#56 25-03-11 08:22:49

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

I have had an enquiry about training a person to become an ambulance driver.
I have looked at the direct.gov website and found this http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Dr … /DG_182840
but it has left me rather confused as to current requirements due to new regulations.
I have categories C1 and D1 on my driving licence but under new laws I will need to pass relevant tests and wait 3 years before I can act as an accompanying driver.  Is that correct?

So.

Has your question been answered then?

Some pages ago I think I suggested asking questions about what would be expected and recognised if you were to take on this training, do you see why now?

Training for emergency services driving can be a mine field, everyone has a different opinion and often a different standard so please ask the individual what their service is looking for. Can I also respectfully suggest that you be honest with yourself and the client about how happy and comfortable you are actually doing the training if you have not had much experience of the techniques yourself.

I hope it works out and I hope if you do take the job on you enjoy doing it.

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#57 25-03-11 08:24:53

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

Might it be an idea that if this conversation about emergency driving training and standards is to carry a new thread be created?

That might also give us a chance to hear how the original poster gets on with this potential job?

Just a thought.

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#58 25-03-11 10:54:42

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: C1 Training

It might be good idea to start another thread as it looks like the police bashers are starting to come out of the wood work. 
Stephen

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#59 25-03-11 15:47:27

on board training
Guest

Re: C1 Training

It might be good idea to start another thread as it looks like the police bashers are starting to come out of the wood work. 
Stephen

Hi,

Your woodwork class must have been different to mine - no police bashing going on here, merely reflection on experiences - don't be so defensive  wink

RAtty - you have hit the nail openly on the head and it relates to all driving - it is an attitude/belief/responsibility problem and this is where some styles are out of date as they do not fully embrace the coaching elements to enable the driver undergoing training to be as fully aware of themselves and others and take ultimate responsibility for ongoing development.

Albeit some areas may be different I am aware that many are still very much the old style 'instruct' and 'tell' what to do ' just 'cos that's the way it is :police: - that's why so many do what they need to for the final assessment drive and then revert back to what they are more comfortable in or believe in - and a wee bit may stick.

I personally am 100% committed to regular driver assessments and refresher training and by taking this ethos myself a certain amount rubs off to others who work with us.

Brian


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#60 26-03-11 12:32:58

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: C1 Training

I think there are more police accidents than the other emergency services because you don't get ambulance and fire engine drivers driving one handed at 60 mph whilst using their other hand to operate their radio.

Mmmmm.........  hardly convincing.

Also perhaps you would like to take into account that the driver is taught this on the response section of the driving course. The Airwaves set is "supposed" to be on the left lapel to be used by the left hand (the gearstick hand).

And why do you think the legislation specifically excluded the use of two way radios in the mobile phone law

4. A device referred to in paragraphs (1)(b), (2)(b) and (3)(b) is a device, other than a two-way radio, which performs an interactive communication function by transmitting and receiving data.

Whilst I don't deny there may be incidents where the use of a radio is a secondary cause, I would suggest, from my experience, that they are few and far between.

The majority of police collisions are not on a response call. By and large they are the same as everybody else. Wearing a uniform doesn't make you "collision proof".

The fact they are trained to a much higher standard than the general public means more is expected of them - and rightly so. When they fail, their penalties are often greater than the public get  -   suspension, fine , transfer to other duties, and even dismissal.

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#61 26-03-11 14:20:02

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: C1 Training

And why do you think the legislation specifically excluded the use of two way radios in the mobile phone law

So that the police officer  using it when driving won't get done?

Doesn't matter how well trained you are, driving at speed one handed whilst operating a phone/radio/whatever with the other  is dangerous to other road users

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#62 26-03-11 14:47:56

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: C1 Training

And why do you think the legislation specifically excluded the use of two way radios in the mobile phone law

So that the police officer  using it when driving won't get done?

Doesn't matter how well trained you are, driving at speed one handed whilst operating a phone/radio/whatever with the other  is dangerous to other road users

Sorry to disappoint you. No he won't get "done".

I don't know why he should get "done".  It isn't an offence. Mobile phone legislation is recent. Are you saying you didn't know there was an exemption for two-way radios?

Nor is it an offence for a taxi driver, or anyone else using two way radios.

Look in an Ambulance or Fire Engine as to where the radio is situated. Within arms reach of the driver. The only reason you never see them using it is because they usually have a co-pilot.

Explain your reasons why it is dangerous, You've seen them using a radio. What aspect of their driving resulted in a danger to other road users?

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#63 26-03-11 16:00:24

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: C1 Training

what about things like due care and attention, not in proper control of a vehicle or eyes not in full veiw of the road, could that be used against them if it were to go wrong.? 

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#64 26-03-11 16:06:59

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: C1 Training

what about things like due care and attention, not in proper control of a vehicle or eyes not in full veiw of the road, could that be used against them if it were to go wrong.?

Of course.  That is what has to happen.  There has to be an element of poor driving in there, for instance drifting to the offside of the road into the path of another vehicle. Taking a hand off the wheel does not mean you are not in proper control. You've answered the question yourself by saying "if it were to go wrong"

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#65 26-03-11 16:10:41

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: C1 Training

ok thanks for the clarrification, it does tend to come up quite a bit on certain courses im involved with.

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#66 26-03-11 16:15:03

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: C1 Training

Sorry to disappoint you. No he won't get "done".

I'm not disappointed. 

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#67 26-03-11 18:22:27

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: C1 Training

Sorry to disappoint you. No he won't get "done".

I'm not disappointed.

Good. Time to move on I think.

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#68 12-11-11 13:42:32

Liz Davies
Member
Registered: 11-11-11
Posts: 2

Re: C1 Training

Hello, I'm new here and also have enquiries in relation to C1 license, I have applied to become a Paramedic student, it said on the application that it is not essential to have the license but it would be an advantage. So im stuck wondering to do the LGV training in a few days and pay the hundreds etc or not bother, but if it would increase my chances of getting on the course then so be it. What would you kindly reccommend? Thank you. x

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#69 12-11-11 14:07:22

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: C1 Training

Hello, I'm new here and also have enquiries in relation to C1 license, I have applied to become a Paramedic student, it said on the application that it is not essential to have the license but it would be an advantage. So im stuck wondering to do the LGV training in a few days and pay the hundreds etc or not bother, but if it would increase my chances of getting on the course then so be it. What would you kindly reccommend? Thank you. x

All depends on what the others you are competing against have got

If you do decide to take the LGV course then go for C not C1 as the costs will be roughly the same
If just doing private or NHS driving then do not bother with the driver cpc stuff


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#70 12-11-11 15:44:21

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

Hello, I'm new here and also have enquiries in relation to C1 license, I have applied to become a Paramedic student, it said on the application that it is not essential to have the license but it would be an advantage. So im stuck wondering to do the LGV training in a few days and pay the hundreds etc or not bother, but if it would increase my chances of getting on the course then so be it. What would you kindly reccommend? Thank you. x

Hello

Welcome to the forum.

I can't say if it will be worth your time and money to take C or C1 training at the moment but it probably would be worth you starting to do some training like joining RoSPA or the IAM. Where are you based?

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#71 15-11-11 21:02:50

chevronjohn
Verified Member
From: North West
Registered: 15-08-10
Posts: 172

Re: C1 Training

Liz Davies wrote:

Hello, I'm new here and also have enquiries in relation to C1 license, I have applied to become a Paramedic student, it said on the application that it is not essential to have the license but it would be an advantage. So im stuck wondering to do the LGV training in a few days and pay the hundreds etc or not bother, but if it would increase my chances of getting on the course then so be it. What would you kindly reccommend? Thank you. x

All depends on what the others you are competing against have got

If you do decide to take the LGV course then go for C not C1 as the costs will be roughly the same
If just doing private or NHS driving then do not bother with the driver cpc stuff

If you only need C1 then don't be convinced to go for the higher licence - it will cost more and is definately harder to drive - look for a trainer who can offer you what you want not what they want. Best of luck with your chosen career


DSA ADI ,DSA LGV Instructor, PCV Instructor, IAM, always willing to learn  smile
www.chevrontraining.co.uk
DSA Customer Test site

Offline


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#72 16-11-11 16:21:12

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: C1 Training

If you only need C1 then don't be convinced to go for the higher licence - it will cost more and is definately harder to drive - look for a trainer who can offer you what you want not what they want. Best of luck with your chosen career

How much more?
Apart from the gearbox how much harder is it?

Re gearbox - many are using a striaght six with a splitter which is hardly used so in effect not much more difficult than what is found in most C1s


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

Offline


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#73 16-11-11 21:07:50

chevronjohn
Verified Member
From: North West
Registered: 15-08-10
Posts: 172

Re: C1 Training

chevronjohn wrote:

If you only need C1 then don't be convinced to go for the higher licence - it will cost more and is definately harder to drive - look for a trainer who can offer you what you want not what they want. Best of luck with your chosen career

How much more?
Apart from the gearbox how much harder is it?

Re gearbox - many are using a striaght six with a splitter which is hardly used so in effect not much more difficult than what is found in most C1s

That fully depends on the hourly rate charged by the training company Rog- all I am going to say as a trainer who regularly trains both, the difference between a normal 5 speed gearbox on a 4.2 tonne large van and that on an 18tonne truck(minimum 8 forward gears) is HUGELY different - and the cost is so reflected.

I stand by my comments that the customer should be given what they ask for not another alternative to suit the training company


DSA ADI ,DSA LGV Instructor, PCV Instructor, IAM, always willing to learn  smile
www.chevrontraining.co.uk
DSA Customer Test site

Offline


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#74 17-11-11 10:01:20

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: C1 Training

(ROG) wrote:
chevronjohn wrote:

If you only need C1 then don't be convinced to go for the higher licence - it will cost more and is definately harder to drive - look for a trainer who can offer you what you want not what they want. Best of luck with your chosen career

How much more?
Apart from the gearbox how much harder is it?

Re gearbox - many are using a striaght six with a splitter which is hardly used so in effect not much more difficult than what is found in most C1s

That fully depends on the hourly rate charged by the training company Rog- all I am going to say as a trainer who regularly trains both, the difference between a normal 5 speed gearbox on a 4.2 tonne large van and that on an 18tonne truck(minimum 8 forward gears) is HUGELY different - and the cost is so reflected.

I was comparing a full sized 7.5 C1 with an 18 tonner C but I see your point if a large van is used for C1


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

Offline

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