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#1 05-11-11 11:26:33

Hilary Hughes
Verified Member
From: Stockport, Manchester
Registered: 25-06-04
Posts: 1,232
Website

M5

I wasn't sure if this subject had been avoided thus far due to its sensitive nature. People might want to read this link just in case the accident has passed anybody by ( although I doubt it has ).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/0 … ay-pile-up

Interesting to hear there were fireworks nearby although just speculation at the moment.
I shall use it as a way to get the messages across about stopping distance and driving in fog to my pupils.

Hilary


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05-11-11 11:26:33

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Re: M5



#2 05-11-11 16:20:46

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: M5

Very sad i feel for all involved.

and too think the powers that be are considering putting the speed limit up to 80mph

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#3 05-11-11 16:52:01

on board training
Guest

Re: M5

Hi,

This is very sad for all involved including those guys from all the emergency services - it may affect them more than they will admit.

I drove up from Brighton to Perth on Tuesday and the lad I had as a passenger was questioning why I was leaving as much room between myself and cars in front.

Interestingly once he was used to it, it felt uncomfortable for him as I deliberately drove as close as other cars (and how he would normally drive) for a few seconds to demonstrate how my space and escape routes were being compromised.

I explained Stephen Haley's 'Risk Equation' of Speed X Surprise divided by Space and it helped.

Brian


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#4 05-11-11 17:38:59

WillyO
Member
Registered: 12-11-10
Posts: 205

Re: M5

I wasn't sure if this subject had been avoided thus far due to its sensitive nature. People might want to read this link just in case the accident has passed anybody by ( although I doubt it has ).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/0 … ay-pile-up

Interesting to hear there were fireworks nearby although just speculation at the moment.
I shall use it as a way to get the messages across about stopping distance and driving in fog to my pupils.

Hilary

Hi, I believe the mention of fireworks was used when an eyewitness was interviewed early this morning. quote; "We heard loud bangs and thought it was fireworks" until we found out it was a serious collision. I believe that was where the mention of fireworks entered the conversation Hilary. Willy.


A wise man does not need advice, But, only a fool won't take it.   Miam, DIAmond Advanced Test, DIAmond Special Test.

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#5 05-11-11 17:48:52

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: M5

I explained Stephen Haley's 'Risk Equation' of Speed X Surprise divided by Space and it helped.

Brian

I often use that formula, its a very effective method for describing 'Risk' and how we can reduce it!

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#6 05-11-11 18:08:41

Hilary Hughes
Verified Member
From: Stockport, Manchester
Registered: 25-06-04
Posts: 1,232
Website

Re: M5

Hilary Hughes wrote:

I wasn't sure if this subject had been avoided thus far due to its sensitive nature. People might want to read this link just in case the accident has passed anybody by ( although I doubt it has ).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/0 … ay-pile-up

Interesting to hear there were fireworks nearby although just speculation at the moment.
I shall use it as a way to get the messages across about stopping distance and driving in fog to my pupils.

Hilary

Hi, I believe the mention of fireworks was used when an eyewitness was interviewed early this morning. quote; "We heard loud bangs and thought it was fireworks" until we found out it was a serious collision. I believe that was where the mention of fireworks entered the conversation Hilary. Willy.

I see. It will be interesting to hear the actual result of the inquiry although I wasn't in the least bit surprised to hear about the fog.

Hilary.


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#7 05-11-11 21:23:37

yesdriving
Verified Member
From: Dorset, Poole, Bournemouth, Wi
Registered: 13-03-10
Posts: 18
Website

Re: M5

I doubt that accidents such as this have much to do with speed limits. There will always be drivers exceeding the speed limits whether it be 70 or 80 or even more. The speed limit in case of this terrible accident was defined by how far the drivers were able to see and react. There were 6 articulated lorries involved - those don't drive 70mph. If you drive with 50mph in thick fog and get too close to the car in front, unable to react in time, then 50mph is too fast. Does that mean that we needed to reduce the speed limit on motorways below 70? Certainly not! Those who drive reckless, will keep doing so, no matter what speed limit.
A solution could be distance cameras that catch drivers who follow too closely and hefty fines for such behaviour. In my opinion more effective than speed cameras. Road users who bully my learner drivers by tailgating are definately the #1 nuisance, followed by those who over- or undertake in a roundabout.

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#8 05-11-11 22:24:40

c-way
Verified Member
From: Peterborough
Registered: 03-10-06
Posts: 1,170
Website

Re: M5

I was shocked to see the report on sky this morning, what a horrible incident and so sad for all involved.  Out on first lesson at 8am this morning - it's foggy - so a good lesson for the learner to link in to the news and carried it on through the day including the test candidate as if he passed he would probably be driving tonight with all the fireworks and potential foggy situations.  Thoughts are with all the families and victims of the M5 crash.


ADI, IAM, B+E Training, CAT C & C+E Training www.c-way.co.uk

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#9 06-11-11 08:14:03

WillyO
Member
Registered: 12-11-10
Posts: 205

Re: M5

Looking at the SKY coverage this morning at the incident. The on-slip ! the motorway comes off a sweeping right hand bend and the on-slip seems to be on a very steep gradient with a very short run on to the motorway. I would think part of this very serious accident is probably down to design fault. I would be interested to know if any similar accidents have occurred at this on-slip. Visibility at this type of junction weather,or obstructions ( gradient, joining on a sweeping coming from a steep gradient) obviously would greatly reduce visibility.   


A wise man does not need advice, But, only a fool won't take it.   Miam, DIAmond Advanced Test, DIAmond Special Test.

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#10 06-11-11 08:33:44

JonnyG
Verified Member
From: Belfast
Registered: 13-01-05
Posts: 742
Website

Re: M5

Very sad.
I wonder if/how this tragic event will sway the government at all about the proposal for increasing the speed limit to 80mph on motorways.

In most cases its stopping distance awareness that makes the difference and I feel that had these been adhered to there would have been far less vehicles involved.

sadly too, I'm also pretty sure there would have been some great drivers who were keeping alert keeping a safe distance, and even creating extra space in front if being tailgated caught up in this.

I sadly, really don't think there is any hope in trying to change attitudes of people who have "gotten away" with it for so long. 

In anything I talk to my students about, the reasons why it is important is discussed in depth.  eg, I ask why its important to check nearside mirror before committing to a left turn, then go on to point out that out of 10,000 turns you will probably have 9,999 times when there is no danger, but on that 1/10,000th time you will be glad that you had checked the mirror properly.

I do still get the odd student who gives me a hard time over my "made up scenarios" for example when approaching a pedestrian crossing the thought of a pedestrian suddenly changing direction, tripping, or dropping something was laughed at. 

Sadly I see this kind of "accident" continuing forever unless cars are fitted with the brains of a conscientious ADI which will adjust speed and following distances automatically, and can't be over ridden by a switch......but I'll be worshipping with the angels by that time. 

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#11 07-11-11 09:50:21

m6northtoheaven
Verified Member
Registered: 04-01-09
Posts: 581

Re: M5

Hi, i was travelling south from birmingham to plymouth with my family on the friday night. We happened to stop at taunton services for half an hour. When we set off at 8.15 from the services all was fine until we heard that the crash had happened at about 8.30. What did get my attention and i had mentioned it to the wife on numerous occasions was that the amunt of vehicles that were tailgating in the conditions was unreal. It had been raining, thick foggy patches dark and yes the odd fireworks flying around.
At one point, i noticed 6 cars in the middle lane travelling above 70mph, as i was doing 60mph due to the conditions and all the cars had overtaken us, with noone in either the inner or outer lanes, so close to one another, if anything happened in front they would have had no chance.
I wouldn't like to guess how the accident happened but i would'nt like to put the blame solely on the fireworks at the time. Peoples attitude to driving in such hazardous conditions needs to be addressed and until that happens i'm afraid things like this are going to happen more often.

Yesterday we spent 11 hours in the car travelling back. No tiredness on my part as most of the time, the engine was switched off, and i spent more time tryijng to entertain an 8 year old by playing eye spy. Only so many times you can spy a car or lorry.

M6


The inclanation of the optic is as adequate as a twitch of the cranium like a quadraped divoid of its visionary capacity!

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#12 07-11-11 10:29:39

Hilary Hughes
Verified Member
From: Stockport, Manchester
Registered: 25-06-04
Posts: 1,232
Website

Re: M5

Hi, i was travelling south from birmingham to plymouth with my family on the friday night. We happened to stop at taunton services for half an hour. When we set off at 8.15 from the services all was fine until we heard that the crash had happened at about 8.30. What did get my attention and i had mentioned it to the wife on numerous occasions was that the amunt of vehicles that were tailgating in the conditions was unreal. It had been raining, thick foggy patches dark and yes the odd fireworks flying around.
At one point, i noticed 6 cars in the middle lane travelling above 70mph, as i was doing 60mph due to the conditions and all the cars had overtaken us, with noone in either the inner or outer lanes, so close to one another, if anything happened in front they would have had no chance.
I wouldn't like to guess how the accident happened but i would'nt like to put the blame solely on the fireworks at the time. Peoples attitude to driving in such hazardous conditions needs to be addressed and until that happens i'm afraid things like this are going to happen more often.

Yesterday we spent 11 hours in the car travelling back. No tiredness on my part as most of the time, the engine was switched off, and i spent more time tryijng to entertain an 8 year old by playing eye spy. Only so many times you can spy a car or lorry.

M6

Nice post.


Sign up for your free small business newsletter
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#13 07-11-11 14:50:27

yesdriving
Verified Member
From: Dorset, Poole, Bournemouth, Wi
Registered: 13-03-10
Posts: 18
Website

Re: M5

Hi, i was travelling south from birmingham to plymouth with my family on the friday night. We happened to stop at taunton services for half an hour. When we set off at 8.15 from the services all was fine until we heard that the crash had happened at about 8.30. What did get my attention and i had mentioned it to the wife on numerous occasions was that the amunt of vehicles that were tailgating in the conditions was unreal. It had been raining, thick foggy patches dark and yes the odd fireworks flying around.
At one point, i noticed 6 cars in the middle lane travelling above 70mph, as i was doing 60mph due to the conditions and all the cars had overtaken us, with noone in either the inner or outer lanes, so close to one another, if anything happened in front they would have had no chance.(...) M6

That's exactly what I'd have suspected, thank you for this post! Reconsidering the 80mph proposal because of this incident is not going to solve the problem. Too short following distances and driving at too high speeds for such conditions, would continue to be an issue whether the speed limit on motorways changes or not. In certain conditions even 50mph would be too fast. The problem is that reckless drivers get away with it. I have been re-training many drivers wholost their licence because of drink driving, speeding or driving an uninsured car etc., but never someone who had received points or been banned for following too closely / reckless driving. In most European countries distance cameras are common, why not here as well. I don't see any other option than strict law enforcement and driver education.

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#14 07-11-11 15:19:02

m6northtoheaven
Verified Member
Registered: 04-01-09
Posts: 581

Re: M5

I noticed whilst driving in france a few years ago, that on the toll roads, when the weather is inclement (foggy/wet) the speed limit is reduced by about 20kph ish not sure exactly. It should be the same here, but it won/t stop the idiots driving aggressively/unsafe. Plus, unless you have more police patrolling its not going to change.

M6


The inclanation of the optic is as adequate as a twitch of the cranium like a quadraped divoid of its visionary capacity!

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#15 07-11-11 18:34:11

android
Verified Member
From: Dereham, Norfolk
Registered: 17-10-11
Posts: 182

Re: M5

yesdriving - "In most European countries distance cameras are common.."  I was not aware of this. What is your source?


Confucius say, "Opinion, like old man's dribble - Once out of mouth, no use to anyone."

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#16 07-11-11 19:36:28

yesdriving
Verified Member
From: Dorset, Poole, Bournemouth, Wi
Registered: 13-03-10
Posts: 18
Website

Re: M5

I am from Austria and we've got quite a few of those on our motorways. Same in Germany.

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#17 07-11-11 20:18:08

Robbie
Verified Member
From: Shrewsbury
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 1,230
Website

Re: M5

Hi, i was travelling south from birmingham to plymouth with my family on the friday night. We happened to stop at taunton services for half an hour. When we set off at 8.15 from the services all was fine until we heard that the crash had happened at about 8.30. What did get my attention and i had mentioned it to the wife on numerous occasions was that the amunt of vehicles that were tailgating in the conditions was unreal. It had been raining, thick foggy patches dark and yes the odd fireworks flying around.
At one point, i noticed 6 cars in the middle lane travelling above 70mph, as i was doing 60mph due to the conditions and all the cars had overtaken us, with noone in either the inner or outer lanes, so close to one another, if anything happened in front they would have had no chance.
I wouldn't like to guess how the accident happened but i would'nt like to put the blame solely on the fireworks at the time. Peoples attitude to driving in such hazardous conditions needs to be addressed and until that happens i'm afraid things like this are going to happen more often.

Yesterday we spent 11 hours in the car travelling back. No tiredness on my part as most of the time, the engine was switched off, and i spent more time tryijng to entertain an 8 year old by playing eye spy. Only so many times you can spy a car or lorry.

M6

I agree it is a nice post, and from the moment it happened my first thought was people not driving to conditions.
I see it all the time when i go on motorways, and i dont go on them very often.

How can the police by opening a criminal investigation to the rugby club for the smoke???

if i see smoke i slow down.

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#18 07-11-11 20:51:47

yesdriving
Verified Member
From: Dorset, Poole, Bournemouth, Wi
Registered: 13-03-10
Posts: 18
Website

Re: M5

(...)
How can the police by opening a criminal investigation to the rugby club for the smoke???
(...)

It appears to me that blaming it on the smoke is all about creating a culprit. I am actually stunned that so far the subject DISTANCE hasn't come up in the media at all - or have I missed something? At least it would serve as a warning to other motorists.

Too often I see articles in our local newspapers, where the one or other mostly young motorist has tragically died in an accident on a Friday night or Saturday early morning, where the car or bike has come off the road for yet unknown reasons. Usually the article continues describing what a nice character the unfortunate was and how devastating this incident was for the family. There'd never be a word about inappropriate speed, acohol, drugs, overtiredness or anything the like. You don't blame the dead. But wouldn't it help to educate other drivers who might identify themselves with the "victim" and make them think at least for a moment?

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#19 07-11-11 21:04:23

mon
Verified Member
From: Lurgan Co.Armagh
Registered: 08-11-08
Posts: 418
Website

Re: M5

Was listening to BBC2 on radio this afternoon and there was a phone in and someone asked whatever happened to the 2 second rule,and I thought yeah should of then been 4 second rule if the conditions dictate.My heart breaks for the victims but someone caused this by irresponsible driving.....God be with them all.


From Striving to Driving.....Lurgan Co.Armagh

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#20 07-11-11 21:16:57

Lewinpeter1
Verified Member
From: Morpeth,Northumberland
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 803
Website

Re: M5

Hi
I am also amazed at the way the emphasis has been placed on a firework display.
Driving too fast 'for the conditions'and too close together[the norm],was my 2nd reaction[after horror at the event].
Shifting responsibility from those who have control[the drivers] to those seperate from the event itself is a copout.
I listened to an early report of someone joining the motorway and slowing down in time being overtaken by another vehicle who piled into the carnage.
If one can see it so should others.
Peter


Dont press that,oh @@##!

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#21 07-11-11 23:39:29

android
Verified Member
From: Dereham, Norfolk
Registered: 17-10-11
Posts: 182

Re: M5

It's fair to say that one shouldn't judge till one has all the facts but it's hard to imagine that the good people involved in this nightmare behaved any differently, than any other random number of the driving public, that evening.

I think the experience of driving with the difficulty of limited visibility to "...like some one switched off the lights..."  would've tested even the best of us. Had their speed been appropriate with proper safe following distances I bet there would still have been a number of collisions but no exploding vehicles and no fatalities.

yesdriving - I had heard that systems were being trialed but I didn't know any had been implemented. I will try and Google it. You make a good point about getting the public to identify as drivers and not to shift the focus to sympathy.   


Confucius say, "Opinion, like old man's dribble - Once out of mouth, no use to anyone."

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#22 08-11-11 05:40:20

Robbie
Verified Member
From: Shrewsbury
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 1,230
Website

Re: M5

without sounding horrible hear but i wouldnt be surprised if the driver who caused it all was on the phone, or too busy talking to passenger and not paying attention to whats going on in front.

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