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#1 06-05-11 15:55:01

logisticsskills
Member
Registered: 06-05-11
Posts: 6
Website

Hello from Logistics Skills

Hi

I'm new to this board and have been involved one way or another in logistics and training since leaving further education - some 22 years ago yikes, having driven for and managed a number of blue chip logistics operations over the years - I have grey hair and wrinkles to prove it wink

In terms of driver training I am now involved with a business that delivers drivers cpc courses - a hotly debated subject amongst many PCV and LGV drivers - I am not on here purely to promote my business but to give any help, advice and guidance on the new EU led legislation and drivers qualification card to anybody who has an interest!

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06-05-11 15:55:01

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Re: Hello from Logistics Skills



#2 06-05-11 19:50:38

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

WELCOME

Now a bit of fun to test your knowledge of the DQC and expiry dates

Driver has LGV aquired rights, completes all 35 hours of periodic dcpc in 2012 (gets DQC expiry dated LGV 09/09/2019) and then passes the last of the PCV Initial dcpc modules on 02/06/2014

What will be the expiry date or dates for LGV & PCV on the new DQC issued after passing the PCV modules?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#3 06-05-11 20:07:24

logisticsskills
Member
Registered: 06-05-11
Posts: 6
Website

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

Hi ROG,

Thanks for the test.....It is something I know - to save all the hassle PCV will be synchronised with LGV after the first DQC qualifying period - meaning both will be Sept 2019 wink


Cheers

Martin

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#4 06-05-11 20:27:36

American Trucker
Verified Member
From: London - Ilford
Registered: 24-03-11
Posts: 23

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

Hello

Welcome smile

Nice to have you here and see you are so enthusiastic

a quick question...
license pre 97
in the process of getting  all categories, a,c,d
doing the 'd' in london with a bus company

can i do the cpc/btec with bus company and will it cover/fullfill requirements for all categories?
can i argue my case about initial cpc with said company or should i follow the 'sheep' and do the initial cpc? mod 2 and 4?

Thanks

Sam


B,BE,C1,C1E,D1 101, D1E 101, fklnp, Digi Tach
Provisional: A, D
D - theory/hpt 98/73 19/5/11

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#5 07-05-11 07:58:34

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

Hi ROG,

Thanks for the test.....It is something I know - to save all the hassle PCV will be synchronised with LGV after the first DQC qualifying period - meaning both will be Sept 2019 wink

That was the FIRST option that the DSA wanted to use
The SECOND was to align them with the 5 year date on the second category - 01/06/2019
Apparently both of the above options are illegal

The THIRD and current way is to take the most recent pass date on the DQC - which in this case is PCV 01/06/2019 and then add 5 years to that which means the driver will get a DQC with both LGV & PCV expiry dates aligned at - get this - 01/06/2024

That does mean that any more periodic dcpc done before 02/06/2019 will not count as periodic must be within 5 years of the expiry date

I know this is happening as I've seen a DQC dated this way and it can be checked on the DSA dcpc hotline 0191 201 8112


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#6 07-05-11 09:45:20

logisticsskills
Member
Registered: 06-05-11
Posts: 6
Website

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

yikes What a mess and all very confusing for drivers and training centres alike!! As this is an EU led directive surely there is a standard approach with our fellow member states?????

I think that it is about time that the DSA :

a) Had a standard approach to course syllabus for DCPC, in terms of modules that could be tweaked to include companies standard operating procedures - this way it will aid training and further development which is beneficial to all - believe you me that I genuinely want people to take something valuable away from the course! I really can't see the benefit of doing 5x7hr drivers hours courses just so that individuals get the DQC, which under the current guidelines you can do - we and the industry need a framework and audit process to stop unscrupulous centres(which hopefully is a minority) fudging it.

b) Actually started advertsing what is happening with this directive - I still get an apathetic approach from alot of companies, who I know will leave it until the last minute which will end up costing them a fortune due to demand outstripping supply. I think the advertising from a governmental point of view has been really poor and they will probably leave it until last minute .com

Anyway, be interested in your thoughts ROG

Martin

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#7 07-05-11 09:54:24

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

a quick question...
license pre 97
in the process of getting  all categories, a,c,d
doing the 'd' in london with a bus company

can i do the cpc/btec with bus company and will it cover/fullfill requirements for all categories?
can i argue my case about initial cpc with said company or should i follow the 'sheep' and do the initial cpc? mod 2 and 4?

The initial dcpc is specific to each category so you will not be doing LGV initial but will be doing PCV initial
There is no equivalent for doing the initial dcpc


If the BTEC course is driver cpc approved (ask provider of BTEC course) then that will count for periodic dcpc

The DQC (driver cpc card) will be interesting in your case as it fits into the THIRD senario in my post above
Lets say it goes like this example -
Pass all initial PCV modules with last one being passed on 08/08/2011
As you already have aquired rights for LGV then a DQC will be issued with 2 expiry dates on it - 09/09/2019 for LGV and 07/08/2016 for PCV
Complete all 35 hours of periodic dcpc in say 2012 (anytime up to 09/09/2014 will get the same result) - a new DQC is issued
The new DQC will be expiry dated 07/08/2021 for both LGV & PCV
No more periodic training will count until 08/08/2016 which is 5 years prior to the expiry date


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#8 07-05-11 10:11:55

logisticsskills
Member
Registered: 06-05-11
Posts: 6
Website

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

Hi sam

Thanks for your questioning all very confusing isn't it!!!!

I don't really know how the bus company have their BTEC structured, however I can say that if they are doing a BTEC as part of the driver CPC then they need to have the Drivers CPC course(s) designed around the BTEC syllabus - e.g if the BTEC involves coach and bus driver customer care, corporate image, Health and safety etc then they would need to design say a 7hr DCPC module/course that ticks both the BTEC and DCPC - it may be that they have designed the BTEC to cover 14hrs, I don't really know the specific ins and outs - but again this needs approving by JAUPT prior to delivery of the said course.

Just for clarification the DQC will cover whatever rights you have on your licence - for exanple if you are going for your "d" bus licence and you have acquired rights for C1 then your DQC will cover that providing it is stated on your licence!



Martin

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#9 07-05-11 10:20:47

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

What a mess and all very confusing for drivers and training centres alike!! As this is an EU led directive surely there is a standard approach with our fellow member states??

Each state can impliment it (make law) as they wish as long as it complies with the directive
If this had been an EU regulation then there would be conformity between states

The DSA/JAUPT have no checks on the accuracy of any course content

There is no assessment or training available for what a driver does most of - the driving - how daft is that?

The onus on the driver to get it instead of employers is the main gripe so the driver who does have to pay is going to go for the cheapest course

The fact that it counts as other work for the EU regs is another issue because it cannot be done during rest periods and therefore may lose the driver some paid employment - a double financial whammy!!


The DfT/DVLA should have sent out info packs to all drivers with PCV/LGV licences as well as the operators

The whole thing has been ill thought out by the EU and with the UK Govt making the law that they have to cover what they thought the directive was asking for has compounded the problem

The only thing this has done for the UK Govt is to increase revenue from drivers, companies and trainers so they are not going to change it


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#10 07-05-11 10:24:08

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

Just for clarification the DQC will cover whatever rights you have on your licence - for exanple if you are going for your "d" bus licence and you have acquired rights for C1 then your DQC will cover that providing it is stated on your licence!

To me that reads the aquired rights for LGV will cover initial for PCV which we know is incorrect
Perhaps it is just the way I am reading it?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#11 07-05-11 10:30:24

logisticsskills
Member
Registered: 06-05-11
Posts: 6
Website

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

Regulation 2.5 | Drivers who hold both PCV and LGV licences
Drivers with both PCV and LGV licences will have to complete only one course of 35 hours
of periodic training every five years; they will not have to undertake 35 hours of training for
each licence category.

This is what I'm talking about?

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#12 07-05-11 10:47:38

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

I thought you might be referring to periodic training only  smile

As you rightly pointed out - that's another daft thing
Those with both PCV & LGV only need 35 hours and does not ahve to be specific for the category being used most
Full time LGV driver with PCV (never used) can do all 35 hours for PCV specific periodic training - and do the same course 5 times!!

The other thing for trainers is that they do not get any feedback as there are no tests done
The trainer has no idea if all the drivers on say a EU regs course have assimilated the knowledge correctly or if they bothered listening at all

The initial module 2 is also a waste of time and should have been designed for testing on drivers hours regs and the use of tachographs



IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#13 07-05-11 10:50:06

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

MODS - IMO this would be a good thread for the LGV training forum


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#14 07-05-11 10:57:56

logisticsskills
Member
Registered: 06-05-11
Posts: 6
Website

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

big_smile I know another weird one!! I agree the courses need to be designed to brush up on legislation rather than some of the fluffy stuff - You are right ref trainers, we are lucky that we have acquired some really good guys with industry experience - from a training centre perspective we do have to prove competence of all of the staff we use afterall we want to gain a good reputation - as we know negative feedback can quickly gain you a bad name in an incestuous industry like Transport and Logistics - I probably know someone that u know wink

Anyway I've got to go and do some bits with the kids before I start getting earache from the missus smile

Keep in touch!!! Martin

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#15 22-05-11 10:02:17

American Trucker
Verified Member
From: London - Ilford
Registered: 24-03-11
Posts: 23

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

as i've found out, because of code 101 next my D1, i  will be doing the pcv license as a newbie!
so all the initial CPC stuff, mod 1-4, then we shall see if/what kinda DQC i get sent?
as a new driver, i think i read, they get sent out DQC, then have to do the 35 hours?

what's going to make things intresting is when i have passed the D license and see what happens with DQC, i'm going to go sit the lgv C with just mod 1 and 3 - theory and road test. let's see what happens then?

as for the BTEC, i asked, and it made no sense at all... but that's down Ken! all london drivers have to do a btec!?!?!?
i was thinking it made more sense to make that and use as CPC at the same time? but no!
so will have to do CPC, 35 hours part, later! was also told - this is drivers responsibilty, not the company's!

interesting?

hmmmmm

Sam smile


B,BE,C1,C1E,D1 101, D1E 101, fklnp, Digi Tach
Provisional: A, D
D - theory/hpt 98/73 19/5/11

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#16 22-05-11 10:59:20

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

You stated on page 1 of this thread that you have a UK pre 1997 licence which means you have LGV C1 on it

You have until 09/09/2014 to complete all 35 hours of periodic dcpc so that you can drive LGVs commercially after that date

All periodic training will count for both LGV & PCV if you have both - even if the training was done prior to getting PCV

You intend to take all 4 initial dcpc PCV modules to gain D

For the purpose of this example I will assume that the last of the 4 PCV modules are completed on 02/09/2011

This will get you a DQC (Driver cpc card) with 2 expiry dates on it
09/09/2014 for LGV
01/09/2016 for PCV

If you complete all 35 hours of periodic dcpc at any time before 09/09/2014 then a new DQC will be issued
The new DQC will have both LGV & PCV expiry dates aligned at 01/09/2021
Any further dcpc periodic training cannot count until 02/09/2016 as that is the 5 year time-frame before the expiry date

This is the current way that the DSA are doing the alignment but as they have already changed their minds twice before then I can only hope this way will stay


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#17 22-05-11 11:13:48

American Trucker
Verified Member
From: London - Ilford
Registered: 24-03-11
Posts: 23

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

the reason why i have to do the D in full is because of the 101 code against it? not for hire or reward.
read that on the .gov website too a few weeks back

C1 has no codes, so its all good, till 2014

the bus company don't care, everyone follows the procedure/policy! mod 1-4
so what's the point of the D1 on my license?
i cant use it or do anything with it except maybe use it as staging and do the D straight away, rather than d1.

also intresting to note another trainee who passed his car test 4 years ago is doing the D, without having done d1?
from B straight to D?

if i had the time and money i would have sat the 35 hours, same class, everyday for 5 days, just to get the 35 hours! and seen the affects of that!

Sam


B,BE,C1,C1E,D1 101, D1E 101, fklnp, Digi Tach
Provisional: A, D
D - theory/hpt 98/73 19/5/11

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#18 22-05-11 11:22:56

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

D1 is a subcategory of D
C1 is a subcategory of C

B licence holder can therefore go direct from B to D or B to C

The reason that the pre 97 D1 has a restriction code is to allow private use of a 10 to 17 seater minibus
Why the C1 did not also have that restriction is a mystery to me

The DSA system will not allow those who already have an unrestricted D1 to do the initial modules 2 & 4 for D but in most cases those doing PCV training will not have this so the company is almost correct to say that all those going for D will be doing all 4 modules


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Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#19 22-05-11 11:24:39

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

if i had the time and money i would have sat the 35 hours, same class, everyday for 5 days, just to get the 35 hours! and seen the affects of that!

You would get a DQC


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LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#20 22-05-11 11:57:44

American Trucker
Verified Member
From: London - Ilford
Registered: 24-03-11
Posts: 23

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

have pre 97 licence
have C1, D1 101

currently doing D (all mods)
planning on doing c, ce, and a

later on doing/completing adi.

if i started on the 35hour cpc, during the weekends, and i complete it in the next couple of months
would that cover periodic 35hr cpc for c,ce,d even though i have not got the licenses as yet?

does B+E require cpc?

i also remember reading something about, if 35hr cpc is not completed by 2013/14 all pre 97 c1, d1 is lost? removed?
or is it that can't drive commercially?

will be in training for quite a few more weeks so was thinking about paying cash and getting the cpc done and out of the way and that way i dont have to worry about cpc till 2016 - 2021.

joke - as its only the money they're after!
nice weather, lazy saturdays, sitting in a classroom, doing the same first aid course, 5 weekends in a row!!?!?!?!?  big_smile yikes :? 8-)  tongue  :? :angel:

Sam


B,BE,C1,C1E,D1 101, D1E 101, fklnp, Digi Tach
Provisional: A, D
D - theory/hpt 98/73 19/5/11

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#21 22-05-11 13:13:35

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

if i started on the 35hour cpc, during the weekends, and i complete it in the next couple of months
would that cover periodic 35hr cpc for c,ce,d even though i have not got the licenses as yet?

YES because you already have C1

does B+E require cpc?

NO - only C & D categories when being driven commercially

i also remember reading something about, if 35hr cpc is not completed by 2013/14 all pre 97 c1, d1 is lost? removed?
or is it that can't drive commercially?

If the 35 hours are not completed by the deadline then you start at zero hours again
If the 35 hours are not completed then the 'right to drive LGVs or PCVs commercially' is revoked but that has nothing to do with the licence

2 seperate issues
LICENCE = to be legally allowed to drive the vehicle
DCPC = to be legally allowed to drive the vehicle commercially

Do the same 7 hour dcpc first aid course for the next 5 saturdays and get a DQC - no problem


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#22 22-05-11 13:21:12

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

If you get a DQC before 09/09/2014 with LGV expiry date of 09/09/2019 and then pass all 4 initial dcpc modules for PCV before 09/09/2014 then a new DQC will be issued giving both PCV + LGV with expiry dates dated 10 years from the PCV inital dcpc pass date 


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#23 22-05-11 13:36:40

American Trucker
Verified Member
From: London - Ilford
Registered: 24-03-11
Posts: 23

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

as you've both said the rules/regs are a bit daft!

in essence i can get my DQC card ASAP,
doing the same approved first aid course 5x7hrs, totaly irreleveant to lgv/pcv,
before i've even got my pcv/lgv licence, as is the case in hand right now and all i have to do is part with some money and time!  :?
i can add c and ce when ever i wish
d is going to get done in the next few weeks/month. so not an issue.


will shock the  big_smile sad :? :angel: out of the bus company when they come to checking/updating my license when i've passed my test in a few weeks!
will already have a current valid dqc card in posession!

if i understand my initial date should 19/5/11.
i just sat the module 1 on thursday, mod 2 sometime in the next 5 days!
then mod 4 and road test

mod 3 and 4 would be quicker and better if you can somehow teach me road reading and planning with a bus! that's where i'm having probs right now  sad :cry:
getting out of london too far is a prob right now with the 4am starts!

thanks for all that rog, will try and see if i can get onto a first aid course now!

Sam smile


B,BE,C1,C1E,D1 101, D1E 101, fklnp, Digi Tach
Provisional: A, D
D - theory/hpt 98/73 19/5/11

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#24 22-05-11 13:51:56

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

Are you currently driving C1s for a living?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#25 22-05-11 14:09:10

American Trucker
Verified Member
From: London - Ilford
Registered: 24-03-11
Posts: 23

Re: Hello from Logistics Skills

been driving C1's since november 2010 local deliveries around london
odd pick-ups from outside london
all on paper tach
recently, due to business being slow, its been the sprinter/white vans the past few weeks

have digi card but never used it!

won't be doing any outside/any work as i'm bus driver now!


B,BE,C1,C1E,D1 101, D1E 101, fklnp, Digi Tach
Provisional: A, D
D - theory/hpt 98/73 19/5/11

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