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#1 31-01-11 19:43:22

amanda27
Member
Registered: 18-09-10
Posts: 4

What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

I passed my part 2 today, I'm very happy about it. I got 4 minors and two of them are a bit strange and I'm wondering what other peoples views are on them. The two that I accept are:

· I got one of the questions wrong at the beginning (I pointed at the brake fluid instead of engine coolant, knew the minute I pointed that I'd got it wrong)

· I have a habit of going into second gear at a junction and then into first, even though I can see that I need first straight away. Got a mark for that which is fair enough.

Now for the two which are a bit odd:

· I was doing a reverse park and when I was at the angle where the back of my car is facing the kerb a bus and a car approached me. I stopped and put my handbrake on and waited to see what they wanted to do. Both went past. I got a mark for this and the examiner said I should have carried on regardless of the bus and car, as the angle I was at was causing me to block the road. Now I'm only 21 and didn't do my L test that long ago, and even back then I was always taught that if a car comes ANYWHERE near you on a manoeuvre then you must stop and apply the handbrake. I didn't think there was any exceptions to this rule and I've spoken to my instructor and he said it's incorrect to suggest I should carry on. I can't have blocked the road too much because they got past me.

· Second one, speed humps. The ones where there are four small ones going across the road. I've been told you have to continue along the road in the same way as normal, not trying to avoid the humps. I didn't like this rule as it's pretty grim going over bumps, it makes me cringe. But it happened on test so I thought the best thing to do was do what I had been taught and keep to my normal course. Anyway I got marked for it and the examiner said that if nobody is around then I should try to avoid the humps. Surely they are there to slow you down, so avoiding them defeats the object? I've spoke to my instructor and he seems really annoyed about this one and is taking it up with the DSA tomorrow.

What does everyone else think about these? I passed, so I'm still happy!

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31-01-11 19:43:22

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Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?




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#2 31-01-11 20:01:47

robcooling
Verified Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 02-04-09
Posts: 1,451
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Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

I was always taught that if a car comes ANYWHERE near you on a manoeuvre then you must stop and apply the handbrake.

That's too black and white in my opinion. If the nose of your car is jutting out and continuing to reverse would increase the clearance between yourself and the passing vehicle then continue slowly.

If continuing would result in becoming more of an obstruction to the passing vehicle then definitely pause.

In the same essence you wouldn't stop half way across the road on a turn in the road if another car came along, you would continue to the kerb to maximise the clearance the other vehicle has to pass you.

Wouldn't bother with the parking brake though, will probably only be paused a few seconds.

I've been told you have to continue along the road in the same way as normal, not trying to avoid the humps.

I would agree, the way I explain this to my lot is to say "prioritise driving position over comfort", maintaining pretty much the normal driving position passing over the bump at about 10mph.


PS : Congrats on passing!


Rob

http://www.appledriving.co.uk - Driving Lessons in Nottingham

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#3 01-02-11 02:00:00

Freedom Phil
Verified Member
From: Sunderland, North East UK
Registered: 31-03-09
Posts: 342
Website

Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

when I did my RoSPA test there was a speed cushion (separate bumps in the road rather than a continuous speed bump) which was on my side of the road, but nothing on the other side. I said to the examiner "There is nobody behind, oncoming or along side so for vehicle stability and wear and tear and passenger comfort, I am going to avoid the speed cushion" and I went around it on the wrong side of the road.  At the next speed cushion I said "i'm not going to do what I just did as there is a junction on the right" As I said it a car came out the junction!  I slowed the car and went over the bump.  Was complemented at the end for it.   DSA test? I would have slowed and gone over both bumps.

As for manoeuvre ad other cars - I'm doing the manoeuvre, I'm causing the inconvenience, I stop till I know what other car is doing - they stop & I go, they go & I stop.

Please can you tell me where the examiner placed these marks on the driving test report???

.phil.
:angel:


DIA diploma in driving instruction.  DSA registered fleet trainer.  ORDIT registered trainer part's 1, 2, 3 & ORDIT premises inspected.  SAFED trainer and assessor.  RoSPA approved tutor.  Diamond registered advanced instructor.  Diamond qualified advanced examiner. City & Guilds 7303 PTLLS teaching certificate.  IAM advanced test, Diamond advanced test, Diamond special test, Cardington special test, RoSPA gold

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#4 01-02-11 07:30:15

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

Reverse park - you should have carried on in those circumstances.
Road humps -  provided you took them 'nicely' I think I would have left that one alone


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#5 01-02-11 23:13:08

ijmoore
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
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Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

Gears, as with anything, this takes practice to get just right.  Changing gear should be based on information.  Most drivers change gear without thought (automonously) rather than with prior thought - with respect.  So WAIT, don't touch the gear until you can justify it, this is UP and DOWN, DIRECTLY into the correct gear for circumstances, if you don't block change regually, there is something not quite correct.

Generally, I teach to stop when cars coming on manoevres, but (for example on left rev) if it makes sense to move out of the road more by continuing, so long as you slow until you know it is safe, that's what I would do.  BUT remember, at the very early stages of learning to drive, some students might roll forwards/backwards, so would encourage them to stop, to avoid this initally, and solve this problem.  This is a little grey, what is SAFER?  What are YOUR thoughts? Which do you believe is best way? I think I agree with examiner, but I can see both ways have advantages.  Of course it depends what POINT you are through the manoevre, at the begining you are going more progressively (on P Park) in to other's path, so would stop, but at  the later stages I would keep moving slowly out of folks way....

Speed bumps make me laugh, the only reason they are there is to make it clear to stupid people to slow down, because they can't do it themselves!  Having symapthy to your car is important (how much does it cost to replace suspension parts!) but also passenger confort and control/safety thoughout the process.  Wieght balance is shifted during acceleration and deceleration.  BRAKING OVER THE first part would mean very hard suspension on the front due to more wieght over the front of the car, BUT easing off the acceleator before and gentle acceleration on first part of bump (on blankets all the way across road) works for me.... BUT on cushions (seperate blocks in the road) generally straddling with good positioning allows quicker and safer progress, so long as it is safe and considered positioning done smoothly.  My pet hate is braking hard for every speed bump then accelerating in between.......crazy!

With the safety checks, I put this down to nerves.  I have done SOOOOOO many advanced tests (I have failed some too initally) all of the ones I failed I was trying to perform specifically to pass that test, more progress, more DSA style, more IAM style.  Rubbish......drive with your own interpretation based on your OWN knowledge and skills at levels you feel in control and are safe, this is the way you get through 'advanced' tests - YOUR way, not THEIR way...........


Fleet Training
Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#6 02-02-11 10:46:19

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

Hi Amanda.

I have a few thoughts.

Coolant container -  If you spotted you pointed to the wrong reservoir, there is nothing wrong with correcting yourself.

You appear to have been taught a lot of "rules".  In my opinion, this shows poor training by your instructor(s).
I feel it is wrong for any instructor or trainer to be telling their clients "you must always do it this way, or that way".

I personally get quite annoyed with nstructors that tell their clients "they must always stop" when reversing if another road user approaches.

It is better to remain at a slow speed, or temporarily pause (if required) whilst assessing wether you are presenting more of a hazard in the position you are currently at, or would it benefit you and others if you proceeded with caution.  Assess the overall situation you are in, and make appropriate decisions on wether to continue or hold based on the relevent facts you are faced with by effective observations.


Traffic Calming Obstacles.

A deflection in road position is perfectly acceptable if no one else is going to be effected. This not only improves the ride comfort, reduces wear and tear on the vehicle, improves eco driving factors but also reduces noise polution for the local residents.

The one mark I am not too impressed with is the gear change into 2 when stopping.  For me, this is not usually a fault worth marking, UNLESS it is delaying moving off whilst the driver re-selects first.  Interestingly, it is the one fault you dont mind being given.

I cant remember EVER suggesting this on a forum before, but I'd suggest you review your choice of instructor/trainer. There seems to be issues on what s/he believes good driving practices are, and what the DSA actually promote.


All the best with your part 3 training, and a career in driving instruction.
KevB.

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#7 02-02-11 16:48:46

metalmicky
Verified Member
From: Chesterfield
Registered: 10-01-11
Posts: 802
Website

Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

Hi Amanda,

As most people suggest to you on here, I would be inclined to agree 100% with their methods. 

If carrying on reversing reduces the impact on other vehicles then carry on.  You are a hazard to other traffic so by carrying on reversing and manoevring further in towards your park position, you are clearing the road and freeing up space and improving safety.  If on the other hand you have noticed the traffic before you have applied any left hand steer.  Then stop and assess the other traffic, if they are waiting, carry on.  If they are passing through, pause, wait till it is clear to steer, then proceed.  Remebering to re-check for pedestrians on both sides of the road towards the rear of the car before moving off again.  If you need to wait for several vehicles, consider applying the parking brake. 

As for the speed humps fault, it seems the road must be quite wide to accomodate 4 humps across it.  A reduced speed should be applied in the whole area where speed humps are present, quite often this would be a "20mph Zone" such as a housing estate etc anyway.  Even if they are on a main type road speed should be reduced, after all it is not good driving practice to keep speeding up inbetween and then slowing down again for each one. 
The roads near us generally only have 2, 1 on each side of the road, so are perhaps slightly different to the ones you encountered.  Positioning the car over 1 hump does not present any unecessary problems, straddle 1 hump evenly to minimise impact on the car, reducing stress on tyres and suspension etc.  Occasionally there will be parked cars or other hazards nearby which mean you have to pass over the highest point of the speed hump at a further reduced speed. 

Where there are more than 2 speed humps across the road, I would assess the situation at that point in time, parked cars, oncoming traffic, following traffic, pedestrians etc.  If it is clear and presents no hazard to any other road user in front or behind or any pedestrians etc, I would consider moving across to reduce the harshness of them, sometimes over one hump, sometimes between 2.

It does seem that your trainer is perhaps not as well informed as they could be and that you would perhaps receive better intstruction / tuition from another trainer.  As I always tell my pupils, never be afraid to change your instructor or stay with them out of any sense of loyalty.  You are paying your money for their services, so you should be happy with the service you get.  Lets be clear on this point no-one will get along with everyone.  I have only ever lost 1 pupil through this method and I wished him the very best with his learning, we are still in regular contact via Facebook and their should be no animosity because you choose to train with somebody else, whether it be training for Parts 1,2 or 3, or teaching Novices.  If you received bad service in a restaurant or at the hairdressers, would you carry on giving them your business?


Just because I'm a driving instructor, it doesn't make me a dual control freak. 
www.way-ahead-driving.co.uk

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#8 02-02-11 19:24:18

ijmoore
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
Website

Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

Personally pt2 training should be considered as part of the pt3 training. Great driving skills and understanding why and how to do it properly, with great methodology is building blocks for pt3


Fleet Training
Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#9 05-02-11 17:13:14

Spike
Verified Member
Registered: 26-01-09
Posts: 285

Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

The one mark I am not too impressed with is the gear change into 2 when stopping.  For me, this is not usually a fault worth marking, UNLESS it is delaying moving off whilst the driver re-selects first.

On an ordinary L test that would be the case, but bear in mind that a lot of "not worthy" faults do get marked as DFs on the Part 2. Similarly, some DFs on the L test are marked as serious on Part 2.

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#10 11-05-11 18:43:46

Bella2010
Member
Registered: 13-03-10
Posts: 43
Website

Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

With the manouvre I would def carry on if it means by doing so you are getting out of the other people's way, (the same thing you'd probably do if you were parking on a high st and holding people up - you wouldn't stop and continue to hold them up and make them go round you, you'd continue into the parking space so they have more room to get by).

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#11 12-05-11 09:53:19

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

As I am not an ADI but am an IAM observer perhaps someone could tell me what the DSA want on part 2

Is it to drive as a learner or to drive beyond that of a learner?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#12 12-05-11 10:06:32

metalmicky
Verified Member
From: Chesterfield
Registered: 10-01-11
Posts: 802
Website

Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

It should be beyond that if a learner ROG, they are looking for what would be expected on Diamond advanced generally or similar standard.


Just because I'm a driving instructor, it doesn't make me a dual control freak. 
www.way-ahead-driving.co.uk

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#13 12-05-11 10:32:24

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

It should be beyond that if a learner ROG, they are looking for what would be expected on Diamond advanced generally or similar standard.

In that case using the available road space to avoid a speed hump should be expected IMO
And to size up any situation such as that reverse and do what is the safest thing to do

I and others often find that the basic DSA test is fine for a start but as seen in this case, there is nothing compulsory beyond that to encourage drivers to progress beyond DSA


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#14 14-05-11 21:21:14

looprevil
Verified Member
Registered: 17-03-08
Posts: 424

Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

A driving element of the part 2 is assessed on the same basis as a learner test.

The term "minor fault" is not in keeping with how faults are described although it is a commonly mentioned description.

Although the assessment criteria is the same - the level and weighting of fault marking takes into consideration the type of candidate and their expected level of skill hence the expected outcome differs.

There are also other differences between the tests.

Annex 6 here is relevant:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/dsa/Documents/gui … cedure.pdf

Chapter 2 here is also relevant:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/dsa/Documents/gui … cedure.pdf

The real question however is why very often those being trained to enter the profession regularly don't find out about these freely available DSA publications or understand how the DSA assess their tests?

regards

Paddy


smile  big_smile  lol  cool

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#15 15-05-11 11:48:34

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

A driving element of the part 2 is assessed on the same basis as a learner test.
The term "minor fault" is not in keeping with how faults are described although it is a commonly mentioned description.
Although the assessment criteria is the same - the level and weighting of fault marking takes into consideration the type of candidate and their expected level of skill hence the expected outcome differs.
There are also other differences between the tests.
Annex C here is relevant:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/dsa/Documents/gui … cedure.pdf
Chapter 2 here is also relevant:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/dsa/Documents/gui … cedure.pdf
The real question however is why very often those being trained to enter the profession regularly don't find out about these freely available DSA publications or understand how the DSA assess their tests?

Thanks for that as I was struggling to understand how an examiner would mark DF/S/D faults differently between a learner test and an ADI part 2 test, as the wording is basically the same. (Although I couldn't find annex C in the first link?)
I couldn't see anything about the examiner taking into consideration the applicant's level (learner/PDI) - could someone please give an example or two of where a learner DF would be considered a PDI S fault? 

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#16 15-05-11 19:38:02

looprevil
Verified Member
Registered: 17-03-08
Posts: 424

Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

Sorry should have said Annex 6 - have amended my post. smile

The difference in expected outcomes often stem from the candidate creating enough time. Whereas a novice driver is a driver that lacks experience a part 2 candidate is expected to have experience.

Therefore with that additional experience the part 2 candidate should demonstrate more defined planning skills and be able to produce outcomes with more finesse and poise. A common example is timings at junctions, where it is expected that the novice driver may take a little extra time to effectively plan a safe and controlled outcome the expectation of the more experienced Part 2 candidate would differ.

Educating all clients to achieve a part 2 standard of driving outcomes works very effectively though.

Trust this helps although if you'd like any more help feel free to get in touch.

regards

Paddy


smile  big_smile  lol  cool

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#17 16-05-11 08:52:30

Driver99
Member
Registered: 21-01-11
Posts: 264

Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

Sorry should have said Annex 6 - have amended my post. smile

The difference in expected outcomes often stem from the candidate creating enough time. Whereas a novice driver is a driver that lacks experience a part 2 candidate is expected to have experience.

Therefore with that additional experience the part 2 candidate should demonstrate more defined planning skills and be able to produce outcomes with more finesse and poise. A common example is timings at junctions, where it is expected that the novice driver may take a little extra time to effectively plan a safe and controlled outcome the expectation of the more experienced Part 2 candidate would differ.

Educating all clients to achieve a part 2 standard of driving outcomes works very effectively though.

Trust this helps although if you'd like any more help feel free to get in touch.

Thanks.  I can see a PDI picking up more DFs for hesitancy/lack of progress etc. where a learner would be given more latitude. What I don't understand is the concept of a DF turning into an S.  If safety isn't compromised (a DF), how can that turn into an S, which part of the definition involves safety being compromised?
Just don't want to "waste" a Part 2 attempt by not knowing how their minds work!

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#18 16-05-11 09:35:45

Hilary Hughes
Verified Member
From: Stockport, Manchester
Registered: 25-06-04
Posts: 1,232
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Re: What are your views on these minors I got on my part 2 today?

Speed bumps make me laugh, the only reason they are there is to make it clear to stupid people to slow down, because they can't do it themselves!  Having symapthy to your car is important (how much does it cost to replace suspension parts!) but also passenger confort and control/safety thoughout the process.  Wieght balance is shifted during acceleration and deceleration.  BRAKING OVER THE first part would mean very hard suspension on the front due to more wieght over the front of the car, BUT easing off the acceleator before and gentle acceleration on first part of bump (on blankets all the way across road) works for me.... BUT on cushions (seperate blocks in the road) generally straddling with good positioning allows quicker and safer progress, so long as it is safe and considered positioning done smoothly.  My pet hate is braking hard for every speed bump then accelerating in between.......crazy!

Agree.

Hilary.


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