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#1 27-08-10 06:19:25

Gedi18
Member
Registered: 20-05-09
Posts: 5

Emergency stop and ABS.

HI,
      preparing for part 3 and have query on how examiner will want me to explain howto use brake and clutch on my corsa 1.3 diesel, should I
say brake then clutch or brake and clutch. I have abs on the car but the manual doesnt really explain how to use them, there is no recomendations on this. any advice/help would be really helpful.

many thanks Gedi

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27-08-10 06:19:25

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Re: Emergency stop and ABS.




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#2 27-08-10 06:35:41

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

If there is no specific manufacturer guidance then just ensure that the brake pedal is prioritized, followed by the clutch.
It may be a question of trial and error as I know that some models stall if you do not de-clutch soon after braking.


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#3 02-09-10 16:49:12

asroxx@yahoo.com
Member
Registered: 03-06-10
Posts: 49
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Brake and clutch same time

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#4 02-09-10 21:05:56

JonnyG
Verified Member
From: Belfast
Registered: 13-01-05
Posts: 742
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

I had a Corsa 1.3 cdti and I always taught bbc (brake before clutch).

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#5 03-09-10 19:09:26

markADI
Verified Member
From: Chessington, Surrey
Registered: 04-08-10
Posts: 10

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

I have a corsa diesel 1.3 and have no problems with stalling when using brake first with pupils. From my part 3 training I was advised it HAS to be this way cos of engine braking. 

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#6 03-09-10 19:28:51

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Gedi, the ideal explanation is that you brake first and then de-clutch just before it stalls to get maximum engine braking. In reality, that means brake then de-clutch with a time space between - the actual time of which depends on speed, deceleration, and the car characteristics.You get a feel for how quickly to do it the more you practice.

If the ABS kicks in a little, let it. That's what it's there for. But it shouldn't kick in for too long - that would be too harsh braking.

Remember that this is an emergency (controlled) stop, and is intended to enable the driver to avoid a very close object or person. As such, even if the ABS doesn't kick in, it should be damned close to doing so - otherwise the stop might not be as controlled as it ought to be.

If the pupil goes for both pedals simultaneously then there is a good possibility the clutch will disengage before the brake has got a good enough grip and the stop will be over a longer distance. Whether such a stop is acceptable or not is down to the examiner (for the test) and your conscience (should the pupil ever need to do it for real). So it's best not to encourage them doing slack stops like that.

Why not try doing a stop yourself using brake-then-clutch to see what the car likes and doesn't like, then teach that? And get the ABS to just kick in so you know what it should feel like when your pupils do it.

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#7 17-10-10 02:38:47

Adi1234
Guest

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Just to add it is Not a problem if the car does stall on emergancy stop it is better for car to stall than for the clutch to go down early and induce coasting.


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#8 17-10-10 07:18:59

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Just to add it is Not a problem if the car does stall on emergancy stop it is better for car to stall than for the clutch to go down early and induce coasting

If you stop in an emergency coasting is not an issue because  of the short distance travelled.
If the engine stalls whilst the car is still moving the ABS won't work and you could end up skidding.


If the pupil goes for both pedals simultaneously then there is a good possibility the clutch will disengage before the brake has got a good enough grip and the stop will be over a longer distance

Not sure how you figure that out, unless there's something wrong with your brakes.  Mine work, i.e. grips the disc,  the instant you press the pedal.

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#9 17-10-10 08:04:55

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Well whatever  roll What I said is correct anyway. In MY car at the very least.

If it is acceptable and safe, teach it how the hell you want.

The above was MY OPINION.

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#10 17-10-10 11:46:33

finch
Member
Registered: 17-09-09
Posts: 168

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

And thats all of us told.

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#11 17-10-10 20:12:29

MartinC
Verified Member
From: Bracknell
Registered: 14-03-06
Posts: 18

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

I tell mine to continue BBC (brake before clutch) in an emergency. I find some insist on going for the pedals together, which often gets the clutch down first (pupil starts with left foot hovering over clutch, but right foot has to move off gas, up and across to get to brake). This has a noticeable effect especially when going downhill.

I had one pupil (big feet) who got clutch down first in such a way that he was then unable to operate the brake correctly. After talking about this & the vital priority that must be given to prompt braking, he then proceeded with hitting the brake & gas together at the same time with his right foot. He dutifully kept his foot still, brought the car to an abrupt stop albeit with the engine screaming. I had no choice but to congratulate him on saving our imaginary pedestrian's life and confirming to him that this was how I wanted him to react!

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#12 13-05-11 18:02:22

SDS
Guest

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

HI,
      preparing for part 3 and have query on how examiner will want me to explain howto use brake and clutch on my corsa 1.3 diesel, should I
say brake then clutch or brake and clutch. I have abs on the car but the manual doesnt really explain how to use them, there is no recomendations on this. any advice/help would be really helpful.

many thanks Gedi

How do you do it? smile

#13 13-05-11 19:14:35

martin Williams
Verified Member
Registered: 26-06-09
Posts: 1,144

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Did you know in the CORSA manual it tells you NOT to press the handbrake button in when applying the handbrake?

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#14 13-05-11 19:28:52

SDS
Guest

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Did you know in the CORSA manual it tells you NOT to press the handbrake button in when applying the handbrake?

Most owner manuals say that these days thats why the DSA no longer mark it if they dont use the button when applying it.

#15 15-05-11 18:56:47

jonsmithuk
Verified Member
Registered: 27-10-07
Posts: 403

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

The faster you are travelling the later you de-clutch , maximising engine braking . Brake should be squeezed all the way in one smooth movement with the clutch hitting the floor just before complete stop. ABS will not kick in , but car will stop extremely quickly. Its the post stop procedure that is important. Immediately after complete stop, apply handbrake and select neutral. Before driving on check both blindspots all mirrors ( and helicopters if it makes you look ) If a vehicle is coming from behing wait and see what they do before you move. In the event that you are in shock, pull over to the side of the road and do not drive on till you feel ok.

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#16 15-05-11 19:21:12

martin_t
Verified Member
Registered: 30-12-06
Posts: 357

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Why do we have to apply the handbrake and select neutral after stopping?

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#17 19-05-11 08:14:41

casper
Member
From: nth wales
Registered: 05-09-09
Posts: 87

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Hi Gedi, all i do to explain ABS is to tell pupil that they may feel some slight juddering from the brakes and that this is the callipers of the brakes opening and closing qiuckly to help avoid locking up, and not to come off the brake. Also explain what to do if using a car with no Abs, although this is rarer now as Abs has been around for a long time.
As for engine braking, when brakes are put on in emergency, car will slow down so quickly that engine braking is almost non existant especially in third gear or higher.But don't tell pupils that, teach brake then clutch, but not too late on clutch. If stall not a problem as long as proper routine followed to pull off again. Better to stall and miss a child than worry about stalling and hit them..At least if you miss them you get the chance to tell them how stupid they were, in a very loud voice lol


pt1 pass 1st time 98% 60 23/9/09
pt2 passed 2nd time 6faults 9/3/10
pt3 passed 3rd time 4/4 jan 2011

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#18 19-05-11 15:58:14

greenyaris
Member
From: Mundesley, Norfolk, UK
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 53

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

"..At least if you miss them you get the chance to tell them how stupid they were, in a very loud voice "


Or chastise yourself for lack of observation and for bad anticipation!   sad


Dave b
drive safe   ride safe
IAM Rider & Driver

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#19 21-05-11 05:55:00

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Can someone please explain what the DSA examiners look for on tests during this exercise?

I should say that I do not teach learners so I don't have much contact with DSA examiners but I can also say that I do have a background in mechanical engineering and I used to be a VOSA approved vehicle examiner. I have also carried out crash investigations and skid / brake testing so I know how cars and brakes work and why they stop.

From a physical / engineering point of view, the only reason I can see that it is important that the clutch does not go down prior to the brake being pressed is because this would demonstrate to an observer that the driver was late pressing the brake pedal. If there was time for the left foot to get to and press the clutch, why is the right foot not pressing the brake? I know that someone has mentioned that pupils tend to have their left foot hovering over the clutch but I think that most of use would agree that this, in normal driving, is a false situation anyway and perhaps the pupil should not be doing this. 

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#20 21-05-11 07:19:11

boing boing
Verified Member
Registered: 21-09-10
Posts: 86
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Why do we have to apply the handbrake and select neutral after stopping?

You've just done a cracking emergency stop and avoided the child who fell in front of your car whilst running across the road. You sit there, without your handbrake on, and congratulate yourself on possibly saving a life.  Meanwhile .. the following driver, having a conversation on a phone, has seen none of this ..

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#21 21-05-11 07:25:43

martin_t
Verified Member
Registered: 30-12-06
Posts: 357

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Nah, the kid on the bike never fell off, he's 50 yards down the road now, you're still faffing around with you're handbrake while the nutter behind you rams you up the rear end.

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#22 21-05-11 07:33:14

mon
Verified Member
From: Lurgan Co.Armagh
Registered: 08-11-08
Posts: 418
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

I agree with aspyre and teach it just as mentioned,clutch in too soon could make the difference and hitting kid ,even slowly ,possibly breaking legs or worse.


From Striving to Driving.....Lurgan Co.Armagh

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#23 21-05-11 08:03:33

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

.........clutch in too soon could make the difference and hitting kid ,even slowly ,possibly breaking legs or worse.

Why could it make this difference?

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#24 21-05-11 09:24:53

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

If it's an emergency stop it's both feet down together.  I don't go with all this nonsense about using engine braking to slow the car down quicker.  In a real situation it's an immediate stop and there is no time for any engine braking. 

Handbrake & neutral is for  test only.  Real life it's get it in first and on your way.

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#25 21-05-11 10:18:43

mon
Verified Member
From: Lurgan Co.Armagh
Registered: 08-11-08
Posts: 418
Website

Re: Emergency stop and ABS.

Why could it make this difference?    because of coasting,less control,no engine breaking and I know the break will be quickly following clutch but for that split second you do feel a slight surge when clutch plates have been seperated.

 


From Striving to Driving.....Lurgan Co.Armagh

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