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#51 11-05-11 15:28:32

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Oh dear trying to find detailed information on this from the powers that be in short space of time is not easy.  Not had a chance to email my ex Police friend yet but from recollection of a previous discussion with him he said that max towing weight + MAM of the trailer would be their guide but if in the event of potential overloading the GTW would determine steps for prosecution or not.  I've just had a look at the vin plate on my Discovery 1 and it shows the following;

Gross vehicle weight = 2720 kgs
Gross train weight = 6220 kgs

Max towing weight on this car is 3,500 kgs which is exactly the figure you get if you deduct GVW from GTW.  The point I'm making here is apparently on some vehicles the GTW could be less than total GVW + max towing limit, ouch that's confusing.  If I find an example I'll post it.

I think the confusion lies in the fact that the law is a bit confusing on vehicles up to 3,500 kgs + trailers.  If you want to know about C catagory laws the info available is clearer and endless.

Lucy I would stay well within the manufacturer's tow limit of the car, that way you know it is safe for your horses and you won't find yourself in any awkward position.

I have found one link which might help

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicle … ailers.pdf


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

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11-05-11 15:28:32

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Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.




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#52 11-05-11 15:36:00

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Oh dear trying to find detailed information on this from the powers that be in short space of time is not easy.  Not had a chance to email my ex Police friend yet but from recollection of a previous discussion with him he said that max towing weight + MAM of the trailer would be their guide but if in the event of potential overloading the GTW would determine steps for prosecution or not.  I've just had a look at the vin plate on my Discovery 1 and it shows the following;

Gross vehicle weight = 2720 kgs
Gross train weight = 6220 kgs

Max towing weight on this car is 3,500 kgs which is exactly the figure you get if you deduct GVW from GTW.  The point I'm making here is apparently on some vehicles the GTW could be less than total GVW + max towing limit, ouch that's confusing.  If I find an example I'll post it.

I think the confusion lies in the fact that the law is a bit confusing on vehicles up to 3,500 kgs + trailers.  If you want to know about C catagory laws the info available is clearer and endless.

Lucy I would stay well within the manufacturer's tow limit of the car, that way you know it is safe for your horses and you won't find yourself in any awkward position.

I have found one link which might help

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicle … ailers.pdf

  he said that max towing weight + MAM of the trailer would be their guide - Oops meant to say max towing weight AND MAM weight of the trailer.


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

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#53 11-05-11 15:36:57

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Ok how do I quote a small section?  That last attempt at quoting failed miserably


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

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#54 11-05-11 17:55:00

lucy
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-06
Posts: 175
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

To quote a small section, you do the quote thing as normal and highlight/delete the bits you dont want to quote.  That link you gave was the one that I was looking for, thank you.  I think you're correct in suggesting I use a vehicle that can tow the MAM of the trailer for two reasons I am sticking to that, I know it's safe for the horses and I know that my pupils will be driving legally.  As said earlier I'm not prepared to risk mine, or someone elses licence on this.

Thank you Discovery for that link. 

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#55 11-05-11 21:34:44

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Hi Lucy, thanks for the quote help, me and technology   roll  Glad the link was useful. 


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

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#56 11-05-11 22:56:40

Trailer Instructor
Member
From: Redhill Surrey
Registered: 10-12-10
Posts: 17
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

I have found one link which might help

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicle … ailers.pdf

Nice find Disco!


ADI, ASMT Instructor, CPC National Road Haulage, CPC International Road Transport, DIA Accredited B+E Trainer 
http://www.trailerinstructor.co.uk

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#57 12-05-11 09:42:19

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Discovery wrote:

I have found one link which might help

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicle … ailers.pdf

Nice find Disco!

Very good find and it totally backed up what I have been saying


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#58 12-05-11 09:43:59

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Can anyone tell me why a B+E licence holder would want to downrate the GVW of a trailer?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#59 12-05-11 12:03:20

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

If I put an empty trailer behind my car and that trailer weighs 1 tonne unladen but has a MAM of 10 tonnes then I am totally legal on a B+E licence

[/quote]

"Rog" can you please tell us what car you are referring to here.  I'm struggling to think of any Cat B vehicle with a towing weight of 10 tonnes.  In the eyes of the law it is the MAM trailer weight and vehicle's towing limit, ultimately GTW, which applies not the actual weight it may be at the time.  I think this point has been adequately explained in my last posted link.


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

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#60 12-05-11 12:05:14

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Quote thing went funny again.  The first line of the above post was a quote from one of "Rog"'s posts.


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

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#61 12-05-11 12:16:49

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Can anyone tell me why a B+E licence holder would want to downrate the GVW of a trailer?

In one of my previous posts I've given a reason "probably the most common" one for down plating a trailer.  An example would be if you have a Nissan X Trail 2.5 Diesel towing limit 2,000 kgs and an Ifor Williams trailer MAM weight 2,700 kgs.  As it stands this combination would not be compatible but you don't want to sell either the car or trailer.  By down plating the trailer to 2,000 kgs you now have a legal combination.


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

Offline


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#62 12-05-11 12:48:56

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

In one of my previous posts I've given a reason "probably the most common" one for down plating a trailer.  An example would be if you have a Nissan X Trail 2.5 Diesel towing limit 2,000 kgs and an Ifor Williams trailer MAM weight 2,700 kgs.  As it stands this combination would not be compatible but you don't want to sell either the car or trailer.  By down plating the trailer to 2,000 kgs you now have a legal combination.

Why would you need to do that?

The towing limit does NOT, I repeat, NOT refer to the MAM of the trailer for b+E

"Rog" can you please tell us what car you are referring to here.  I'm struggling to think of any Cat B vehicle with a towing weight of 10 tonnes.  In the eyes of the law it is the MAM trailer weight and vehicle's towing limit, ultimately GTW, which applies not the actual weight it may be at the time.  I think this point has been adequately explained in my last posted link.

Referring to what this thread is about - B+E

The rules for towing with B without the +E are entirely different


I am begining to realise that some on here are getting the two rules mixed up!!


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

Offline


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#63 12-05-11 13:22:53

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats

Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.

For example:

    a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle

Whereas

    the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
    Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle's handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne would be well within the new category B threshold.

Category B+E: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM towing trailers over 750kgs MAM

Category B+E allows vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM to be combined with trailers in excess of 750kgs MAM. In order to gain this entitlement new category B licence holders have to pass a further practical test for category B+E. There is no category B+E theory test. For driver licensing purposes there are no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E.

This is an extract from the DSA website.  The sentence "For driver licensing purposes there are no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E" when read on it's own appears to be taken out of context and the source of alot of confusion.  Under Cat B it gives examples of what would fall under B category or not.  As I read it this is what the DSA are referring to as ratio limits.  As these added restrictions do not apply under B+E category then hence the no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E.

I think the DSA should have worded this alot better and wonder if they are aware of the confusion it causes.



ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

Offline


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#64 12-05-11 13:25:09

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

In one of my previous posts I've given a reason "probably the most common" one for down plating a trailer.  An example would be if you have a Nissan X Trail 2.5 Diesel towing limit 2,000 kgs and an Ifor Williams trailer MAM weight 2,700 kgs.  As it stands this combination would not be compatible but you don't want to sell either the car or trailer.  By down plating the trailer to 2,000 kgs you now have a legal combination.

Why would you need to do that?

For the reason I've given, can't see how much clearer the example can be.


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

Offline


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#65 12-05-11 13:46:24

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

"Rog" can you please tell us what car you are referring to here.  I'm struggling to think of any Cat B vehicle with a towing weight of 10 tonnes.  In the eyes of the law it is the MAM trailer weight and vehicle's towing limit, ultimately GTW, which applies not the actual weight it may be at the time.  I think this point has been adequately explained in my last posted link.   
Referring to what this thread is about - B+E

The rules for towing with B without the +E are entirely different


I am begining to realise that some on here are getting the two rules mixed up!!


Cat B vehicle - vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats.  The question I asked was what car you were referring to in your post that would tow a trailer with a MAM of 10 tonnes and be legal under B+E category. 


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

Offline

#66 12-05-11 13:55:42

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

If the downplating was to conform to the towing rules for B licencing then that only works if the MAM of the trailer is LESS than or equal to the unladen weight of the towing vehicle and the total MAM is 3.5 tonnes or less
With a trailer of 2 tonnes MAM and the unladen weight being at least 2 tonnes then it does not work for B

If the downplating was for B+E then it is a waste of time as there is no law or rule that states the MAM of the trailer must be less than the towing capacity of the towing vehicle

So I ask again - why downplate a trailer?





IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

Offline


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#67 12-05-11 13:57:14

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Cat B vehicle - vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats.  The question I asked was what car you were referring to in your post that would tow a trailer with a MAM of 10 tonnes and be legal under B+E category.

Example - My car - a 1.4 petrol SEAT IBIZA on a B+E licence

As long as the towing capacity of my car is equal to or lower than the actual weight of the trailer then it is totally legal


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

Offline


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#68 12-05-11 13:59:35

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Cat B vehicle - vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats.  The question I asked was what car you were referring to in your post that would tow a trailer with a MAM of 10 tonnes and be legal under B+E category.

Example - My car - a 1.4 petrol SEAT IBIZA on a B+E licence

As long as the towing capacity of my car is equal to or lower then the actual weight of the trailer then it is totally legal

And the manufacturer's towing limit and GTW is?


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

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#69 12-05-11 14:17:06

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

And the manufacturer's towing limit and GTW is?

Max towing weight is listed as 1.2 tonne

Not sure where to find the GTW but as long as the trailer weighs 1.2 tonne or less and the car is not overloaded (1.675 tonnes) then it's legal for B+E


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#70 12-05-11 14:27:38

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Your local SEAT dealer should be able to tell you the GTW if it is not displayed on the vin plate.  If your trailer has a MAM of 1.2 tonne or less then assuming the towing limit figure for your car is correct then it is legal.  Referring to your original example of being legal with a trailer MAM of 10 tonnes then looking at the link below again I'll leave it up to you to decide if you still believe you are legal.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicle … ailers.pdf


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

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#71 12-05-11 14:39:35

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Your local SEAT dealer should be able to tell you the GTW if it is not displayed on the vin plate.  If your trailer has a MAM of 1.2 tonne or less then assuming the towing limit figure for your car is correct then it is legal.  Referring to your original example of being legal with a trailer MAM of 10 tonnes then looking at the link below again I'll leave it up to you to decide if you still believe you are legal.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicle … ailers.pdf

YES
That PDF says exactly what I am saying !!

If you disagree then tell me which part of that PDF says otherwise?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#72 13-05-11 10:41:21

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

@ Lucy - After reading your first post I have a couple of observations -

EXAMPLE: -
Towing vehicle has Manuf plate stating GVW = 3.5 tonnes and GTW = 5.0 tonnes
Trailer has plate stating GVW = 4 tonnes (if no plate then it goes on the load rating of the tyres)

If the towing vehicle actually weighs 2.5 tonnes and the trailer actually weighs 2.5 tonnes then that is legal for B+E
None of the plated weights have been exceeded.




Rog,
The towing weight is not the towing vehicle GTW less the GVW


I've taken the below comment from the National Trailer and Towing Association website:
Every vehicle manufacturer has to give a maximum towing limit. This can be found in the vehicle handbook and also on the chassis plate, usually found under the bonnet. The information can be presented in a variety of ways. The clearest is when the plate gives the towing limits for both braked and unbraked trailers. Sometimes the car’s Gross Train Weight (GTW) is given. This is the combination of the car’s Maximum Permitted weight (MPW) sometimes called Gross Vehicle Weight (GVW) and the trailers Gross Trailer Weight. To get the towing limit simply deduct the MPW from the GTW. It is an offence to exceed the car’s towing limit.

I have done this with both my cars and it is correct. It makes sense. The Train Weight is the GVW of the towing vehicle added to the MAM of the trailer, so subtracting one from the other would give the towing limit.
Your example below would give a towing limit of 1.5tonnes (5.0T - 3.5T).
As stated above, to tow a trailer exceeding the towing limit is an offence.
Additionally, the MAM of the trailer should not exceed the kerbside weight of the towing vehicle. It does not matter that the trailer is loaded or unloaded. It's back to the tail wagging the dog scenario. We hopefully all work from the 85% rule, but it is only a recommendation. Where it may move into law is if the ratio goes over the 100% and by what margin. It then comes under Con & Use Regs and may constitute an offence.

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#73 13-05-11 11:49:18

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

the MAM of the trailer should not exceed the kerbside weight of the towing vehicle

Only for B - not for BE

I asked one of the top people in VOSA (Graeme Baxter) about this MAM issue and permissable towing weights by text (I've kept the text)

The maximum towing limit of a car or LGV is given by the manufacturer
Usually it will be the train weight on the Manuf plate minus the gross weight
It may also be given seperately by the Manuf eg in the handbook
The ACTUAL weight of the trailer may not exceed this figure
Eg the shogun has a max towing weight of 3300kg
This does not stop me from towing a trailer plated at 3500kg so long as it doesn't actually weigh more than 3300kg

That is his own vehicle so I reckon he should know the LAW


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#74 13-05-11 12:42:08

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

the MAM of the trailer should not exceed the kerbside weight of the towing vehicle

Only for B - not for BE

I asked one of the top people in VOSA (Graeme Baxter) about this MAM issue and permissable towing weights by text (I've kept the text)

The maximum towing limit of a car or LGV is given by the manufacturer
Usually it will be the train weight on the Manuf plate minus the gross weight
It may also be given seperately by the Manuf eg in the handbook
The ACTUAL weight of the trailer may not exceed this figure
Eg the shogun has a max towing weight of 3300kg
This does not stop me from towing a trailer plated at 3500kg so long as it doesn't actually weigh more than 3300kg

That is his own vehicle so I reckon he should know the LAW

I don't deny he should know the law and probably does. I'm pleased he has agreed that the GTW is normally the GVW minus the MAM of the trailer.
There is however a separate offence in all of this

The police turn up at an accident - car and caravan, where the caravan took control ,spun the car and both ended up upside down.
Not much chance of getting either to a weighbridge.

The police will take all available information from the car:  Kerbside weight, unladen weight, gross vehicle weight and gross train weight.
then do the same for the caravan: MIRO and MTPLM, payload

At no point is there a suggestion that the combination exceeded it's weight restrictions. Nor has it anything to do with Driver Licensing.

So it's back to kerbside weight and MTPLM. Is the combination safe?
i.e.  A small car towing a medium sized caravan where the MTPLM is 125% of the KW.

There is a strong case that would suggest it is unsafe, regardless of the weight of the caravan at the time.

The driver would be reported for an offence under Regulation 100 (3) Road Vehicle( Construction & Use) Regs  -   No motor vehicle or trailer shall be used for any purpose for which it is so unsuitable as to cause or be likely to cause danger or nuisance to any person in or on the vehicle or trailer or on a road.

It is an offence VOSA may be unaware of. It is however, still on the statute books and leaves the police with an option to prosecute where there is insufficient evidence to report for excess weight offences.

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#75 13-05-11 12:50:35

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicle … ailers.pdf

It is possible that the stated gross train weight (example 5000kg MAM/GVW) is less than the sum of the stated maximum permissable laden weight of the towing vehicle (example 3000kg MAM/GVW) and the stated maximum permissable laden trailer weight (example 4000kg MAM/GVW).
In this case the towing vehicle (example loaded at 2500kg actual weight) and the trailer (example loaded at 2500kg actual weight) must be loaded so that each does not exceed its individual maximum limit (examples listed as 3000kg & 4000kg) and the sum of both (example 2500kg actual weight + 2500kg actual weight) does not exceed the maximum gross train weight (example 5000kg).

I added the blue examples
For arguments sake we will say that the manufacturer towing limit is stated as 2500kg

Now, can anyone find something ILLEGAL with that example?




IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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