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#26 10-05-11 11:51:24

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Another link to peruse - this one refers to towing with horseboxes
http://www.towinghorsetrailers.co.uk/to … ts_law.htm


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Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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10-05-11 11:51:24

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Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.




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#27 10-05-11 11:55:34

lucy
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-06
Posts: 175
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

I'm sorry if I'm having a really thick day today, but it seems to state that should you get stopped by Vosa and you're towing with a vehicle that's not capable of towing your loaded (MAM) trailer then you can be prosecuted and this is under EU law.  Maybe it's the way I'm reading it?

I for one am not prepared to test this out as I value my licence and horses far too much.  So will be ensuring that any towing vehicle I use is more than capable of towing over 2800 kgs.

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#28 10-05-11 11:57:17

lucy
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-06
Posts: 175
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Sorry 2nd reply added as I was replying, which also seems to agree with what I've said.  So I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make Rog?


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#29 10-05-11 12:03:42

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

I'm sorry if I'm having a really thick day today, but it seems to state that should you get stopped by Vosa and you're towing with a vehicle that's not capable of towing your loaded (MAM) trailer then you can be prosecuted and this is under EU law.  Maybe it's the way I'm reading it?

I for one am not prepared to test this out as I value my licence and horses far too much.  So will be ensuring that any towing vehicle I use is more than capable of towing over 2800 kgs.

The Manuf guide does not legally state a maximum MAM but does state a guide to what the vehicle can safely tow

There is no law that states a vehicle cannot tow a trailer of a certain MAM

If I put an empty trailer behind my car and that trailer weighs 1 tonne unladen but has a MAM of 10 tonnes then I am totally legal on a B+E licence
It would not be legal on a 'B' licence

I challenge anyone to find a LAW that says otherwise


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#30 10-05-11 12:06:16

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Sorry 2nd reply added as I was replying, which also seems to agree with what I've said.  So I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make Rog?

If you refer to the MAM mentioned in that link then it refers to the maximum weight that the trailer and it's load can be - it does not state that that MAM must not exceed any other guide or weight


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LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#31 10-05-11 12:18:35

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

What seems to confuse many is the rules on MAMs and actual weights

Unless there is a law that states the MAM of a trailer must not exceed something like the towing capacity of a vehicle then the only thing relevent to the MAM is the actual weight of the trailer including the load

In neither of the two links does it state that and is also not stated in the Govt site when referring to towing with B+E set ups


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LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#32 10-05-11 12:45:26

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

lucy wrote:

I'm sorry if I'm having a really thick day today, but it seems to state that should you get stopped by Vosa and you're towing with a vehicle that's not capable of towing your loaded (MAM) trailer then you can be prosecuted and this is under EU law.  Maybe it's the way I'm reading it?

I for one am not prepared to test this out as I value my licence and horses far too much.  So will be ensuring that any towing vehicle I use is more than capable of towing over 2800 kgs.

The Manuf guide does not legally state a maximum MAM but does state a guide to what the vehicle can safely tow

There is no law that states a vehicle cannot tow a trailer of a certain MAM

If I put an empty trailer behind my car and that trailer weighs 1 tonne unladen but has a MAM of 10 tonnes then I am totally legal on a B+E licence
It would not be legal on a 'B' licence

What about if the trailer is lighter than the ULW of the car, i.e. the car has an ULW of 1250kgs, and the said trailer is 1000kgs with the plate of 10 tonnes, why would this be illegal on a cat B?  So is it the plate or the weight we should be working off, pardon my ignorance!

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#33 10-05-11 12:51:43

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

What about if the trailer is lighter than the ULW of the car, i.e. the car has an ULW of 1250kgs, and the said trailer is 1000kgs with the plate of 10 tonnes, why would this be illegal on a cat B?  So is it the plate or the weight we should be working off, pardon my ignorance!

For Cat B the towing rules are different to B+E

The MAM of the trailer must not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle and the total of the towing vehicle and the trailer must no exceed 3.5 tonnes

I said it was confusing !!


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Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#34 10-05-11 12:57:48

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Thats my point Rog though, it doesn't exceed the ULW or the GTW, it is only the plate which says 10 tonne, the trailer weighs 1 tonne empty and the car weighs 1.25 so in total less than 3.5t, so surely this would fall into a cat B licence??? :?

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#35 10-05-11 13:09:07

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Dr … G_10013073

Category B: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM and with up to eight passenger seats

Category B vehicles may be coupled with a trailer up to 750kgs MAM (allowing a combined weight up to 4.25 tonnes MAM) or a trailer over 750kgs MAM provided the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, and the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes MAM.

For example:

•a vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.25 tonnes could be driven by the holder of a category B entitlement. This is because the MAM of the combination does not exceed 3.5 tonnes and also the MAM of the trailer does not exceed the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
Whereas

•the same vehicle with an unladen weight of 1.25 tonnes and a MAM of 2 tonnes when coupled with a trailer with a MAM of 1.5 tonnes would fall within category B+E. This is because although the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer is within the 3.5 tonnes MAM limit, the MAM of the trailer is more than the unladen weight of the drawing vehicle
•Vehicle manufacturers normally recommend a maximum weight of trailer appropriate to their vehicle. Details can usually be found in the vehicle's handbook or obtained from car dealerships. The size of the trailer recommended for an average family car with an unladen weight of around 1 tonne would be well within the new category B threshold.



Category B+E: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM towing trailers over 750kgs MAM

Category B+E allows vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM to be combined with trailers in excess of 750kgs MAM. In order to gain this entitlement new category B licence holders have to pass a further practical test for category B+E. There is no category B+E theory test. For driver licensing purposes there are no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E.


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#36 10-05-11 16:28:19

lucy
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-06
Posts: 175
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

This is for driver licensing purposes not for Vosa though, do you see what I'm trying to get at it's not in accordance with the manufacturers guidelines, I think if you got a real jobsworth police officer that you could be prosecuted under a certain section of the traffic act (no I haven't read it cover to cover) or against EU Law.  So although they cant prosecute you for driving not in accordance with driver licensing laws there are other ways to prosecute (I think), and I'm seeing more and more trailers being pulled to the side of the road these days.

So as I said personally I'm not prepared to risk it, but it's immaterial as I want the vehicle for B+E tuition!!  So will need it to be able to tow the laden weight of my trailer, and as am intending upgrading to an IWT 511 or IWT 510 need it to be around the 3000kgs mark.  I think it's actually 2750kgs,  but rounded it up to be well within the weight.

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#37 10-05-11 18:04:54

Trailer Instructor
Member
From: Redhill Surrey
Registered: 10-12-10
Posts: 17
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

I plate to a lower weight just to be on the safe side and anyway I don't use tuition vehicles to carry loads. The equine veterinary practice I train drivers for assure me few horses weigh more than 500 kilos. As I said they find the Santa Fe is fine with their Ivor Williams 510/11s. The thing to do is find the nearest VOSA weighbridge and drive your vehicle over it empty and make a note of your axle weights than do the same with the empty combination. Do it again loaded and find out what your horses weigh. 


ADI, ASMT Instructor, CPC National Road Haulage, CPC International Road Transport, DIA Accredited B+E Trainer 
http://www.trailerinstructor.co.uk

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#38 10-05-11 18:06:36

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

This is for driver licensing purposes not for Vosa though, do you see what I'm trying to get at it's not in accordance with the manufacturers guidelines, I think if you got a real jobsworth police officer that you could be prosecuted under a certain section of the traffic act (no I haven't read it cover to cover) or against EU Law.  So although they cant prosecute you for driving not in accordance with driver licensing laws there are other ways to prosecute (I think), and I'm seeing more and more trailers being pulled to the side of the road these days.

My guarantee that there is nothing that VOSA or any other agency can legally get you for is not worth anything so I suggest you call your local VOSA station and any other agency you think may have cause to prosecute you for doing what I stated and ask them to verify what I have said

As I have this info from the DVLA and from one of the top people in VOSA (I mean top!!) then I know I am correct but as I said - I could be making it all up................


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#39 10-05-11 18:08:52

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

What advantage does it give to plate to a lower weight please?

No-one has yet given the reason for doing that


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#40 10-05-11 18:18:53

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

(ROG) wrote:
lucy wrote:

I'm sorry if I'm having a really thick day today, but it seems to state that should you get stopped by Vosa and you're towing with a vehicle that's not capable of towing your loaded (MAM) trailer then you can be prosecuted and this is under EU law.  Maybe it's the way I'm reading it?

I for one am not prepared to test this out as I value my licence and horses far too much.  So will be ensuring that any towing vehicle I use is more than capable of towing over 2800 kgs.

The Manuf guide does not legally state a maximum MAM but does state a guide to what the vehicle can safely tow

There is no law that states a vehicle cannot tow a trailer of a certain MAM

If I put an empty trailer behind my car and that trailer weighs 1 tonne unladen but has a MAM of 10 tonnes then I am totally legal on a B+E licence
It would not be legal on a 'B' licence

What about if the trailer is lighter than the ULW of the car, i.e. the car has an ULW of 1250kgs, and the said trailer is 1000kgs with the plate of 10 tonnes, why would this be illegal on a cat B? !

So this could be driven with only cat B !!!!! Im still confused Rog because in your statement above you state you couldn't.

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#41 10-05-11 18:25:24

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

A trailer with a 10 tonne GVW (or MAM) would be illegal to tow with a B licence as the MAM would be greater than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle

I think that was in the quotes from the Gov link I posted earlier in this thread


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#42 10-05-11 18:28:46

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

But didnt you mention why people down plate, wouldn't this be a reason?

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#43 10-05-11 18:32:46

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

But didnt you mention why people down plate, wouldn't this be a reason?

That could be for those with a B licence so why would those with a B+E do it?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#44 10-05-11 18:37:06

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Exactly!!!! Agreed!

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#45 10-05-11 20:21:41

lucy
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-06
Posts: 175
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

I plate to a lower weight just to be on the safe side and anyway I don't use tuition vehicles to carry loads. The equine veterinary practice I train drivers for assure me few horses weigh more than 500 kilos. As I said they find the Santa Fe is fine with their Ivor Williams 510/11s. The thing to do is find the nearest VOSA weighbridge and drive your vehicle over it empty and make a note of your axle weights than do the same with the empty combination. Do it again loaded and find out what your horses weigh.

I am beginning to question lots today I can assure you I know several horses that weigh more than 500kgs, my 15.2 lightweight horse weighed 478 kgs, my current horse weighs approx 550kgs, depending on time of year.  She is by no means a heavyweight horse.

I am still going with my gut feeling on this one, and the advice I've recieved from the DSA and Vosa, which implies that the tow vehicle needs to be capable of towing the mam of the trailer.  You have shown me nothing that legally shows this is not the case.  Personally I want to see written evidence from the DVLA/DSA or VOSA, not a link to another forum who are also discussing the legalities before I risk towing with a vehicle that (in my opinion's) not up to the job.

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#46 11-05-11 06:19:53

colin
Member
Registered: 08-07-09
Posts: 25

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Hi Lucy

There is only 1 vehicle to buy for the task LR Disco 3.

Colin

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#47 11-05-11 07:24:03

lucy
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-06
Posts: 175
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Thank you Colin, That's the conclusion I've come to over the last couple of weeks they seem to have the best towing weights and be up to the job I want it to do, as it's not just a tuition vehicle for me and the OH isnt wavering on me having a quad bike.

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#48 11-05-11 08:32:25

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

the advice I've recieved from the DSA and Vosa, which implies that the tow vehicle needs to be capable of towing the mam of the trailer.

Did that advice include where the laws could be found on that?
Or where it is written on a Govt site?

Of course not - because it does not exist

If there was a law for that then it would be publically available and very prominent on many sites especially Govt sites about towing


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#49 11-05-11 14:02:13

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Hi everyone, not been on the forum for a while so missed this very interesting discussion.  As I understand it, the plated MAM weight of the trailer must not exceed the max towing weight of the vehicle.  I'm going to ask a friend of mine who's a recently retired traffic police officer to clarify what the police would do in some of the senarios given and post his reply.  We are in the South East and Kent in particular is hot on this subject given it's the gateway to the continent.  Another interesting thought are clients who tow for business and the GTW over 3.5 tonnes requiring tachographs, business use only.  Some companies have already fallen foul of this in you've guessed it, Kent.  Tree surgeons have been easy targets.  Private users and use for the purposes of training are exempt from using tachographs if GTW is over 3.5 tonnes. Apologies if the tacho discussion is already on the forum somewhere else.  As for down plating, one reason could be if you already have a vehicle and trailer you don't want to part with but are not compatible for towing.  Down plating (within reason) would solve this problem.


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

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#50 11-05-11 14:16:29

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

As I understand it, the plated MAM weight of the trailer must not exceed the max towing weight of the vehicle.

Will someone PLEASE post a link to where this alledged LAW is - thank you

http://www.johnexley.co.uk/jedtagri.htm

If you hold B+E entitlement there is no trailer weight limit under driving licence regulations BUT

BEWARE you must not exceed your vehicle's towing capacity.

You may tow a trailer with a MAM greater than the towing capacity as long as the actual weight is not.

Do not confuse driver licence regulations with C&U (construction & use) regulations.


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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