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#1 19-04-11 07:28:16

lucy
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-06
Posts: 175
Website

B+E - Towing vehicle.

Ok wonder if anyone has any vehicle/vehicles they would reccommend or would steer clear of?  I currently am using a Ford Maverick, which has a towing weight of 2750kgs but it's beginning to show it's age.  I need it to be able to tow a horse trailer so need a hefty towing vehicle, ideally being able to tow around the 3000kgs as at some point will be changing my trailer for a larger one.  I do need it to tow horses as well as earning me money with the trailer tuition.

So far have been suggested a Kia Sorrento - but have found differing towing weights some as low as 2000kgs so no good if that's correct.  Land rover Discovery, good towing weight, but mechanic friend said dont.  I would quite like another Maverick (Nissan Terrano) but towing weight is putting me off.  Ssang Song Rexton has also been thrown into the equation, but have never seen one so not sure.

As it's also going to be used to take me and horses to horse shows, I do need it to have a reasonable boot, and be capable of going off road, as also use it around the fields for towing and harrowing the sand school, so a proper working vehicle, with a not too big turning circle would be good, my son in law has the L200 and turning is not brilliant although it's good for towing.

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19-04-11 07:28:16

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Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.



#2 22-04-11 18:44:41

GreenLight
Verified Member
From: West Devon / East Cornwall
Registered: 26-02-04
Posts: 227
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Evening Lucy,

The Land Rover Defender is not known as "The Best 4 x 4 x Far" for nothing. I ran one for about twelve years and then traded it in for a P38 Range Rover. Which I currently use to tow my B+E trailer. (Clients use their own vehicle for training and test).

Mind you, the Range Rover is a bit too high-tech for my liking. Air suspension and electric everything (even the head restraints). You mechanic friend will probably say "don't"!

Larry

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#3 24-04-11 11:07:19

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Hi Lucy,

If you're not bothered about the age of the vehicle (from experience neither are most B+E clients) have a look at a 300 TDI Discovery, as long as they have been looked after and the timing belt changed every 60,000-70,000 miles they are a very good choice for towing (3,500 kgs).  TD5 Discovery Series 2's are good too as long as you get one without troublesome rear air suspension and the head gasket has been done if the mileage is around or over 100,000.  As with all older vehicles check for rust in the usual places.  If you like the look of a Discovery 3 go for one on a 56 plate or later, early ones had teething problems.  I would avoid the Nissan Navara, apart from the size the engines have been troublesome.  The new L200 now has an improved turning circle, almost best in class so clearly they have been listening to consumer feedback, but your towing capacity is 2,700 kgs.  Other brands to check out are Isuzu and Toyota.

Just a thought re harrowing the sand school etc, have you considered getting a quad bike for those tasks?  A mid range one will have 4wd option and will happily tow harrows / small trailers all day long.  A friend of one has a Grizzly which is excellent.  You can also see exactly what the harrow is doing and get tighter into the sand school corners plus they are great fun.

Oops forgot to add that the Discovery 3 has an electronic handbrake.  However, on the manual (which is what you will need for B+E) the E handbrake does not auto release when moving off (only does that on autos) and so must be used like a conventional one therefore is permissible for DSA B+E test.

Sophie


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

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#4 24-04-11 21:04:04

lucy
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-06
Posts: 175
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

I have indeed considered getting a quad bike but the OH isnt keen, he's not sure I need lots of gizmo's n gagdets, have tried asking him if I can get a tractor to. 

Will look into those suggestions, it just seems such a minefield and I do like personal reccommendations on vehicles as you get the proper idea, for example the boots small on certain vehicles or customer service is poor.  I had also noticed that the pupils dont seem bothered about age of vehicle used although my son in law would have me driving around in brand new cars every 6 months - but think that's because he'd like to drive them.

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#5 24-04-11 22:00:33

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Hi Lucy,

Know what you mean about a minefield  yikes.  I've personally used Defenders and Discoverys for many yrs towing horse and car transporters with no probs.  Boot space not a problem on them.  A student had a Nissan X-Trail on one course and was impressed with power on that (think it was a 2.5 D) but at the end of the day whatever you choose has to tick all the boxes.  Happy searching  smile

Sophie


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

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#6 25-04-11 19:46:02

c-way
Verified Member
From: Peterborough
Registered: 03-10-06
Posts: 1,170
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Lucy, we use a manual discovery 3 for our B+E work, tows exceptionally well, very reliable, very comfortable, as long as they are regularly maintained they work really well.  The low range gear box is useful for the reversing as it saves the clutch a lot of stress.  As for the Electronic Parking Brake,the later models do release on moving off automatically and we only manually release it when going backwards.  Good luck in your search.

Caroline


ADI, IAM, B+E Training, CAT C & C+E Training www.c-way.co.uk

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#7 25-04-11 22:16:01

lucy
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-06
Posts: 175
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Hi Sophie checking out the X Trail, the one I checked out had a really poor towing weight, what was your pupil pulling with it?  As far as I can work out it wouldnt be capable of towing my horse trailer.

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#8 26-04-11 13:06:08

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Hi Caroline / Lucy

The last Disco 3 I drove was a 57 plate (non auto releasing E p/brake on manuals) so they must have changed this shortly after, thanks for the update.

The X Trail student used her own trailer (someone else towed it to us on the first day) and it was an Equi Trek Trail Treka M (2000 kgs) so just on the car's limit (2.5 Diesel Manual).  Wouldn't have legally towed our IW either.  The auto 2.5 D does have a lower tow limit sad 

Quick question Caroline re "we only manually release it when going backwards."  Does the DE not mind the auto release feature being used on test esp for say moving off up hill?  Interested to know for future reference.  Absolutely agree low range is better for reversing and having an electronic high low ratio switch makes this so easy. 


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

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#9 26-04-11 17:54:14

lucy
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-06
Posts: 175
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Ah thanks for that Sophie no good having an X trail then as the towing weights too little.  This researching towing weights seems to be like trying to join a special club, I've had to discount certain cars that had good towing weight as spares are hard to come by.  I really wasnt sure about having a Discovery but it's looking more and more as if that might be about my only choice, as it's got a good towing weight and is easy for servicing and finding parts.

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#10 26-04-11 17:57:05

GreenLight
Verified Member
From: West Devon / East Cornwall
Registered: 26-02-04
Posts: 227
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Evening all,

A very interesting thread.

I seem to remember that the DSA has recently relaxed the restriction on electric/electronic handbrakes fitted to vehicles presented for test. But I can't find anything on the Direct Gov site.

Anyone got a link?

Larry

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#11 26-04-11 21:10:28

c-way
Verified Member
From: Peterborough
Registered: 03-10-06
Posts: 1,170
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Hi Sophie,  the de's have no issue with the auto release, we have been using ours in this way since October 2009 before they deemed epb's were ok for all tests.  We had to have it ok'd before our first B+E test by the examiner to ensure it wouldn't self apply on a stall uphill - it doesn't  wink  but it works great, de's seem to like it, only thing to keep an eye is to ensure parking brake is not applied in low range, it doesn't do it much good and needs resetting as it can squeal  yikes

GreenLight,

This is the link to the epb's acceptance : http://www.dft.gov.uk/dsa/news.asp?id=SX777A-A78385A1


ADI, IAM, B+E Training, CAT C & C+E Training www.c-way.co.uk

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#12 26-04-11 22:43:38

GreenLight
Verified Member
From: West Devon / East Cornwall
Registered: 26-02-04
Posts: 227
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Thanks Caroline,

That's sweet of you.

Larry

(A life-long Neil Diamond fan)

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#13 27-04-11 22:36:06

Discovery
Member
From: S E London
Registered: 23-03-11
Posts: 28
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Hi Caroline,

Thanks for the info, good that they have relaxed the rules on this.  That p/brake squeal is horrible, it doesn't like mud either   roll


ADI Grade 5, B+E Training, B.O.R.D.A and NPTC Off Road qualified instructor
www.drivinglessons-charlton.co.uk

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#14 29-04-11 22:31:07

c-way
Verified Member
From: Peterborough
Registered: 03-10-06
Posts: 1,170
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Shame mine never sees mud, born an off roader, living life as a on roader -  at least it's towing and earning it's living  wink 


ADI, IAM, B+E Training, CAT C & C+E Training www.c-way.co.uk

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#15 09-05-11 06:05:15

Trailer Instructor
Member
From: Redhill Surrey
Registered: 10-12-10
Posts: 17
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Personally myself and my second instructor use a 2L Diesel Auris and a 1900 Diesel Vectra respectively for tuition with twin axle boxes plated down to 1.5 tons which is the weight the vehicles can tow. That gives us combinations that return 40 mpg. If however you want a dual purpose vehicle for your horse-box the Hyudai Santa Fe will tow 2.7 tones and a veterinary practice I trained the driver for say it returns over 40mpg towing an Ivor Williams 510. I was impressed by the Santa Fe and they give a five year warranty.     


ADI, ASMT Instructor, CPC National Road Haulage, CPC International Road Transport, DIA Accredited B+E Trainer 
http://www.trailerinstructor.co.uk

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#16 09-05-11 15:13:39

GreenLight
Verified Member
From: West Devon / East Cornwall
Registered: 26-02-04
Posts: 227
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Afternoon Martin,

It is interesting that you mention 'down plating' your trailers. Initially I had the same worries.

I use an Ifor Williams GD84TA (twin-axle) fitted with a canopy. It has a maximum authorised mass of 2584kg and an unladen weight of 540kg.

I move it around with my aging P38 Range Rover. My clients use their own vehicle for training and test.

In my rural area the majority of clients own a Land Rover product. But occasionally one turns up with a saloon car which will not pull the MAM of my trailer but will manage the unladen weight.

I have checked with the DSA and the boys in blue and I am assured that I am on the right side of the law.

So I certainly do not intend to 'downplate' my trailer!

Larry

PS: Heaven help us all when they bring in the "laden trailer" requirement! - 2013?




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#17 09-05-11 15:21:51

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

occasionally one turns up with a saloon car which will not pull the MAM of my trailer but will manage the unladen weight.

I have checked with the DSA and the boys in blue and I am assured that I am on the right side of the law.

Correct for B+E as there is no restriction on weights
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Dr … G_10013073

Category B+E: Vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM towing trailers over 750kgs MAM

Category B+E allows vehicles up to 3.5 tonnes MAM to be combined with trailers in excess of 750kgs MAM. In order to gain this entitlement new category B licence holders have to pass a further practical test for category B+E. There is no category B+E theory test. For driver licensing purposes there are no vehicle/trailer weight ratio limits for category B+E.


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#18 09-05-11 17:28:03

Trailer Instructor
Member
From: Redhill Surrey
Registered: 10-12-10
Posts: 17
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

But occasionally one turns up with a saloon car which will not pull the MAM of my trailer but will manage the unladen weight.

I have checked with the DSA and the boys in blue and I am assured that I am on the right side of the law.

If VOSA see a vehicle towing a trailer plated above that which it's Gross Train Weight allows whether it's empty or not they will consider it to be overloaded. They are the arbiters not Plod or the DSA. You couldn't tow over your weight with an LGV empty or loaded and the same law applies to B vehicles.     

PS: Heaven help us all when they bring in the "laden trailer" requirement! - 2013?

That's gonna screw my fuel consumption!


ADI, ASMT Instructor, CPC National Road Haulage, CPC International Road Transport, DIA Accredited B+E Trainer 
http://www.trailerinstructor.co.uk

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#19 10-05-11 07:24:18

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

You couldn't tow over your weight with an LGV empty or loaded and the same law applies to B vehicles.

The rules for LGVs are different for those under 3.5 tonnes

Vehicles under 3.5 tonnes do not have VOSA weight plates - only manufacturer weight plates
VOSA plates state what GVW/MAM weights must not be exceeded
Manufacturer plates state what actual weights must not be exceeded

I will not go into commercial use because various other rules apply but will stick with private use: -
Vehicle under 3.5 tonnes ('B' licence) pulling a trailer with a plated weight of 10 tonnes where the towing vehicle actually weighs 3 tonnes and the trailer including load weighs 2.5 tonnes - all legal for B+E Providing the Gross Train Weight is not exceeded
The safety recommendation (not law) is that the trailer should not weigh more than the towing vehicle or it could get the 'tail wagging the dog' senario
None of the manufaturer weights have been exceeded
VOSA will only be interested if any part of the set up has exceeded the Manuf safety weights or if any part of the set up/load is unsafe

As an aside - if the trailer actually weighed 750kgs or under (no matter what the plated weight) then that can be towed by a 'B' licence holder with a 'B' licence vehicle weighing 3.5 tonnes
If the 'B' licence holder is towing a trailer over 750kgs THEN the MAM/GVW of the trailer plays a part as the MAM of the trailer cannot exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle and the total set up must be under 3.5 tonnes


These rules need to be revised as they are very complicated depending on vehicle used, licence being used, actual weights, MAM weights, private or commercial etc




IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#20 10-05-11 07:52:42

lucy
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-06
Posts: 175
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Typed a reply to this and managed to mess up the quote so I deleted it.  Checked out the Santa Fe and the towing weight wasnt enough.  So looks like I'll be joining the Land Rover brigade, I did go into a 4wd specialists on saturday but the salesman couldnt drag himself away from his computer so walked out!!

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#21 10-05-11 08:41:53

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

@ Lucy - After reading your first post I have a couple of observations -
The towing weight is not the towing vehicle GTW less the GVW

EXAMPLE: -
Towing vehicle has Manuf plate stating GVW = 3.5 tonnes and GTW = 5.0 tonnes
Trailer has plate stating GVW = 4 tonnes (if no plate then it goes on the load rating of the tyres)

If the towing vehicle actually weighs 2.5 tonnes and the trailer actually weighs 2.5 tonnes then that is legal for B+E
None of the plated weights have been exceeded.
 


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#22 10-05-11 10:31:37

lucy
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-06
Posts: 175
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

Hi Rog - I'm going by the maximum permissable weight of a braked trailer as printed (on screen) on the manufacturers websites, not anything stamped on a vehicle, although my car does have a plate with all the weights on it as does my trailer.

For example a Nissan X trail that my friend had has a maximum tow weight with a braked trailer of 2000kgs, and she was towing an IWT 505 with a gross weight of 2500kgs - she reckoned it would be ok as unladen trailer weight 750kgs and the 2 horses weighed around the 1000kgs mark so didnt exceed the towing weight of her vehicle.

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#23 10-05-11 10:59:36

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

For example a Nissan X trail that my friend had has a maximum tow weight with a braked trailer of 2000kgs, and she was towing an IWT 505 with a gross weight of 2500kgs - she reckoned it would be ok as unladen trailer weight 750kgs and the 2 horses weighed around the 1000kgs mark so didnt exceed the towing weight of her vehicle.

Your friend should follow the safety recommedations given by the Manufacturer

The Max weight listed on the trailer does not in itself exceed the Manuf guidelines
That only occurs if the actual weight of the trailer and it's load exceeds 2000kgs

In this case the Manuf states a maximum weight of 2000kgs
With EACH horse weighing 1000kgs plus the unladen weight of the trailer of 750kgs then that total is 2750kgs so is over the max trailer weight and above the Manuf safety guide

If I got the weight of the horses wrong and the total weight of BOTH horses is 1000kgs then with the trailer weight of 750kgs the total weight is 1750kgs and is perfectly safe and legal when driven under a B+E licence UNLESS the actual weight of the combination exceeds the Max Train weight listed on the towing vehicle


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#24 10-05-11 11:39:29

lucy
Verified Member
Registered: 28-09-06
Posts: 175
Website

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

So you're of the understanding that you can tow a trailer which has a maximum laden weight of say 2750kg with a car that can tow 2000kgs as long as you dont load the trailer to it's maximum weight?

In which case why do people have a trailer replated, to a lower weight?

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#25 10-05-11 11:46:36

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: B+E - Towing vehicle.

So you're of the understanding that you can tow a trailer which has a maximum laden weight of say 2750kg with a car that can tow 2000kgs as long as you dont load the trailer to it's maximum weight?

In which case why do people have a trailer replated, to a lower weight?

I don't know why but the link below also backs up what I've said
http://farmingforum.co.uk/forums/showth … p?p=675412


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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