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#26 22-03-11 21:34:31

on board training
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Re: C1 Training

Hi Ratty,

Some DSA and some involved directly with IAM & RoSPA are or may be rather old school in their thoughts and the two styles are actually closer than some realise or admit to and some who think they are miles apart are maybe just miles away from modern teachings or their version of IAM/RoSPA is based on the Emergency style driving not that for the public which is really the same minus the higher speed driving.

If I said that I teach the system i learned for my IAM and RoSPA tests to learner drivers, Pt2 and DIA tests as well as IAM & RoSPA test candidates and have a good success rate for all levels then it amybe indicates what I am saying is correct.

But if you taught the Roadcraft Emergency Response driving or high speed elements to any of them outwith ERT or high speed driving they obviously wouldn't pass any of the tests.

Still good to see your experience which is vast in your field, however the opinion regarding positioning can only be clarified once examples of said positioning is given.

I still hold an opinion that some IAM/RoSPA examiners may be out of touch with modern teachings of Roadcraft and System driving as the DSA even make reference to using IPSGA as a system or routine in teaching Cat B drivers.

Brian

22-03-11 21:34:31

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Re: C1 Training



#27 23-03-11 06:51:32

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

I fully accept that a person who has been taught to drive to IPSGA would pass their DSA test all else being equal. I also agree that the DSA and Roadcraft based organisations are coming closer together in their thinking which did not used to be the case. However there are differences in what the DSA and the likes of the IAM etc looks for in the position phase of the system. There are also differences in what some emergency service driving schools encourage their students to do, a lot more so than there used to be.

If this is what you mean by your 'out of touch' comment then so be it, but please remember that the standards for the IAM and RoSPA tests are determined by the organisation's head offices and chief examiners. The 'on the ground' examiners do not have a say and should examine to the standard laid down by their respective organisations. Certainly RoSPA has not changed it's standard since I started examining for them and the IAM whilst not encouraging candidates to, for instance cross the centre line when safe and legal to do so, has always allowed this and straight lining on test providing it is safe, legal and to advantage. This is at least partly why I think RoSPA is having problems recruiting more examiners, the organisation wants examiners who were taught the old 'out of touch' way, not the new way. If the old way is done correctly there is nothing wrong with it. I fully accept that it is more difficult to put over and teach some of the older methods of positioning and some of the discipline required in emergency service driving has been watered down and or lost. As far as the actual book itself is concerned, some of it has been changed to make it easier to teach during the shorter courses which driving schools are now restricted to and also to make it easier to understand for people just buying the book to read. The book Roadcraft, as I'm sure you know, was intended to be read as part of a course and not read as a stand alone input to driving so the idea always was that if the reader did not understand a section the instructor would help to explain it as a part of the course, this had to be changed to make it easier to read and understand if no instructor was present. Roadcraft represents the 'public face' of emergency service driving, but other aspects are added during the courses. As far as I know, the DSA does not want drivers positioning right for vision on some left hand bends or straight lining bends or roundabouts, providing it is safe and legal to do so and it is done to advantage, neither the IAM or RoSPA have problems with these techniques.

You comment about the context of the drive. Just because someone is not driving an emergency services vehicle to an emergency does not mean that advantage can not be gained by positioning a vehicle a certain way. If it is safe and legal to do so and I can gain an advantage over doing it differently I regularly straight line some bends and roundabouts and position my vehicle to gain extra vision. I accept that I no longer look to make 'tactical contact' with other vehicles and I often miss my 'Kojak' light for those who remember the TV detective, but some other techniques do comfortably transfer over from emergency driving to private day to day driving. How the Diamond organisation would view this I honestly don't know but I would respectfully suggest that if someone is going to help someone prepare for an emergency services driving career the person should be basing the driving on Roadcraft because that is what the emergency services look to for standards.

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#28 23-03-11 10:42:45

on board training
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Re: C1 Training

Hi Ratty,

Sorry if this appears as a hijacked thread but please remember it is still about the style of driving i.e. DIA/Roadcraft etc.

This is where I have posted many times regarding mixed messages from IAM & RoSPA due to individual managers, examiners, trainers, groups and tutors doing their own thing and a lack of consistency.

My clear understanding from IAM & RoSPA HQ regarding straightlining, extreme positioning etc, for non emergency service vehicles/drivers, is actually in total contradiction to what you and some others actually do and accept under the label of IAM/RoSPA/Roadcraft Advanced Driving - because it suits the individuals to carry forward some of their emergency service driving styles to their normal private or non-emergency driving.

I don't, obviously, really care too much how someone decides to drive using their developed skills, but where the issues develop for me is they drivers saying  wink wink this is IAM/RoSPA Advanced Driving. and we wonder why the general motoring public get confused with mixed messages.

Brian

#29 23-03-11 11:27:16

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: C1 Training

Would it be fair to say that the DSA prefer the driver to stay within their own lane whereas the likes of the IAM prefer the driver to use all available road space if safe to do so and use the white paint on the road as a guide rather than a rule?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#30 23-03-11 13:02:37

on board training
Guest

Re: C1 Training

Would it be fair to say that the DSA prefer the driver to stay within their own lane whereas the likes of the IAM prefer the driver to use all available road space if safe to do so and use the white paint on the road as a guide rather than a rule?

Hi ROG,

Again, I would say it is fair to say that what you have described is not the part line with IAM/RoSPA it is what different individuals have carried forward into teaching it.

Brian

#31 23-03-11 17:57:06

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: C1 Training

Ratty,
I applaud you in all your experience and qualifications you hold and I am singing from your hymn sheet so to speak,my experience is that I am currently a serving TO and Examiner with the IAM . I to have passed an IAM test  back in 1991,prior to my carreer I was a then HGV Class 1 driver with 14yrs experience.
I also have 15yrs experience investigating collision's,the Roadcraft book was designed for Police drivers and adopted by the other emergency services,along with civilian Advanced driving groups such as IAM /ROSPA.

On Board if I could just ask you to clear up one thing that you say,you mention that there is discrepences with Tutors Examiners etc in advice can you just clarify that.  I will just corroborate what Ratty has said the IAM doesn't condone crossing the white line ie it doe's not allow its groups observers to tutor in this for obvious reason's,however if it is carried out on test to already mentioned Safety etc then it is acceptable,so as far as I can see the advice is clear not shown,but accepted if done .

I should also point out that I took and passed my Observer qualification along with Senior and trained in this area for around 12 to 14yrs,during this time my group along with lots of others have had the same advice.  I know that we have got off topic but this is forums for you,my opinion is this if you are going to use Roadcraft then use to its full dont water it down or take the bits you want to use and change others,as the book was designed to coincide with a fully structured driving course,not once a week or fortnight observed run if you get my drift.  This is just my own personal opinion based on my actual experience in Advanced driving fields.
Stephen   

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#32 23-03-11 18:52:07

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: C1 Training

I will just corroborate what Ratty has said the IAM doesn't condone crossing the white line ie it doe's not allow its groups observers to tutor in this for obvious reason's,however if it is carried out on test to already mentioned Safety etc then it is acceptable,so as far as I can see the advice is clear not shown,but accepted if done .

Different for this IAM senior observer !!
I positively encourage the use of crossing white lines IF SAFE TO DO SO

The situations I am refering to would be like straightening a laned roundabout when no-one else is around or once the vision around a right hand bend is acquired

I would not encourage 'offsiding' on the approach to a left hand bend

I also encourage being as far to the right on a SC with cars parked on the left PROVIDING there is space and time to slow down and pull into the left should something approach


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#33 23-03-11 18:58:27

on board training
Guest

Re: C1 Training

Hi,

The following is no other than to give an idea of my experience and where I have gained my information from:
Qualified DSA ADI 2002, DSA Fleet Regd. 2002 and ORDIT 2011
I have been a member of IAM & RoSPA for almost ten years now and active RoSPA Group Committee member for most of that.
Having passed IAM test in 2001, conducted IAM Fleet training 2003 to 2005, passed IAM Special Assessment in 2004.
Passed 1st RoSPA test at Gold 2001, conducted RoSPA Fleet as team leader 2002 to 2005, RoSPA Diploma 2002 (most recent re-test 2011) RoSPA Btec Level 3 in Advanced Driving Instruction 2011.
DIAmond Advanced Test 2002
Completed FSO Police Driving Instructor Course and qualified as Scottish Police Emergency Response Trainer 2005.

The conflict in advice is spread throughout the country - the official HQ line for non-emergency drivers, from RoSPA Rules for test is that marked centre lines must not be crossed (so you do not use the full width of the road! couldn't be any clearer)- the last time straightlining roundabouts was mentioned in the Roadcraft book was the 1977 version when reference is made to straight-line roundabouts with, 'the shortest path between entrance and exit . . .'

The newer Roadcraft pages 55 & 56 does not make mention of ’shortest path between entrance and exit . . .' and makes reference to lanes in a similar way to Driving the Essential Skills and my understanding is things have moved on since the ’77 book and it is not acceptable for ‘joe’ public to cross lanes in a roundabout to simply take the shortest path albeit it is acceptable for emergency service vehicles when on a ‘hurry up call’ or ‘blue light run’ and this is what I have been told from HQ IAM & RoSPA as well as some Scottish RoSPA examiners.

Brian

#34 23-03-11 19:46:12

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

I suspect that the discrepancy arises from the fact that the IAM and RoSPA does not encourage groups to teach off siding and straight lining. This is at least partly because of the fear of an observer who perhaps does not fully understand the technique themselves suggesting that something unsafe is done. Let's be honest here, it would lead to very bad publicity if an IAM or RoSPA so called 'advanced driver' was involved in a crash whist on the wrong side of the road. Both organisation push road safety and I dare say that the majority of drivers who have not had any experience of the technique would probably see crossing the centre line as an unsafe act. I also have to say that, in my experience which is over quite a number of years, I doubt that the majority of observers could safely teach the technique to lots of their associates. However, as I have said, examiners are told that if the technique is used safely, legally and to advantage on test not only is it not a problem but it should be seen as a positive thing. Now I also accept that opportunities for a test candidate to do this will possibly be few and far between depending on where the test is taking place but if it is done SAFELY, LEGALLY AND TO ADVANTAGE there should be no problem on a test. I would say that when I am referring to off-siding I am not necessarily talking about crossing the centre line on the approach to left hand bends. As has been said, the legal speeds at which civilian tests are conducted at very rarely make doing this advantageous and safe, I am however referring to crossing the centre line in order not to lose vision when it is safe to do so. A driver can position the vehicle to MAINTAIN vision, not to GAIN vision. Emergency service drivers are taught to drive to the 4 S's. Safety, System, Smoothness and Speed. IN THAT ORDER. Safety should always come first. There is no reason at all why this thinking can not be applied to normal road driving. After all the majority of emergency service driving is done at normal road speeds, contrary to what is shown on the TV, emergency service drivers are not always responding to calls requiring high speed driving and the use of legal exemptions. So, for instance, if someone is driving along a winding road and nothing is coming in the opposite direction and the driver's actions would not confuse or obstruct following traffic, there is often advantage to be gained by off-siding and straight lining the road in order to maintain vision which would be lost if the vehicle stayed to the left. This might also result in improved vehicle stability and improved comfort for the vehicle's occupants. What is wrong with doing this?

Just noticed that you have made another post while I have been typing this.

I notice that your emergency service training was done at the Scottish police driving school. I am not sure about their policy now but some years ago I spoke to the chief instructor there about visiting the school and discussed the techniques taught there and I think I am correct in saying that that school stopped teaching off-siding to police officers some years ago, I do not know if this has changed again since then? As has been said there are variations on this between different driving schools. If an examiner learned at a school which does not teach the technique that examiner may have a different view on the subject to an examiner who was taught the technique. That is partly why at least RoSPA wants examiners from the 'old school' who were taught the technique.

Is it really any surprise that both RoSPA and the IAM do not want their fleet instructors introducing these ideas on half or full day courses? With respect to their instructors, often they are not really sure about the technique and most of the time the people on these courses are not driving enthusiasts and often hear what they think was said and not what was actually said during the course. The number of times I have been told by clients that 'the last instructor said it is OK to drive on the wrong side of the road' or something similar when in reality they have not said that at all. This is a technique which sometimes can be introduced over time, often when the client raises the subject themselves following discussions about sight lines and / or safety margins.

Brian if you want further clarification of this I would encourage you to contact the Chief Examiners of each organisation. Tell them about this thread and ask for their official clarification of the matter.

I hope that this helps to clarify any discrepancies.

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#35 23-03-11 19:56:41

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

Stephen7738 wrote:

I will just corroborate what Ratty has said the IAM doesn't condone crossing the white line ie it doe's not allow its groups observers to tutor in this for obvious reason's,however if it is carried out on test to already mentioned Safety etc then it is acceptable,so as far as I can see the advice is clear not shown,but accepted if done .

Different for this IAM senior observer !!
I positively encourage the use of crossing white lines IF SAFE TO DO SO

The situations I am refering to would be like straightening a laned roundabout when no-one else is around or once the vision around a right hand bend is acquired

I would not encourage 'offsiding' on the approach to a left hand bend

I also encourage being as far to the right on a SC with cars parked on the left PROVIDING there is space and time to slow down and oull into the left should something approach

Ask Trevor Dickenson about the subject.

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#36 23-03-11 21:00:24

on board training
Guest

Re: C1 Training

Hi,

My first communication with RoSPA in 2002 re these topics, was with direct conversation with their former head of the Driver Training with Ch Examiner also present and it was clear what was said and it is as I have said i.e. for members of the public outwith Police and other emergency driving/training the things you and other examiners accept as discussed here were not the formal party line. I had similar with the Senior Examiner in Scotland at the same time and he also made it clear IAM's formal stance is the same.

I raised it last year with RoSPA and was told it would be looked at due to the mixed messages and the fact it was in contradiction of the test guidelines, but I am still waiting on a reply.

In recent years there is also even less positioning in normal open road driving as in reality there is little benefit to be gained with taking extreme nearside and offside of your own side of the carriageway within normal speed limits.

Now if I am away on a long rural drive myself, do I at times drive the way you describe - yes I do and I am totally comfortable with it but I am very aware of additional risks this may bring but I don't then say this is the official way IAM and RoSPA say to do it.

Brian


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#37 24-03-11 07:25:03

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: C1 Training

Ask Trevor Dickenson about the subject.

Already have - he is the Staff examiner for my region


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#38 24-03-11 08:02:52

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

Hi,

My first communication with RoSPA in 2002 re these topics, was with direct conversation with their former head of the Driver Training with Ch Examiner also present and it was clear what was said and it is as I have said i.e. for members of the public outwith Police and other emergency driving/training the things you and other examiners accept as discussed here were not the formal party line. I had similar with the Senior Examiner in Scotland at the same time and he also made it clear IAM's formal stance is the same.

I raised it last year with RoSPA and was told it would be looked at due to the mixed messages and the fact it was in contradiction of the test guidelines, but I am still waiting on a reply.

In recent years there is also even less positioning in normal open road driving as in reality there is little benefit to be gained with taking extreme nearside and offside of your own side of the carriageway within normal speed limits.

Now if I am away on a long rural drive myself, do I at times drive the way you describe - yes I do and I am totally comfortable with it but I am very aware of additional risks this may bring but I don't then say this is the official way IAM and RoSPA say to do it.

Brian

The driver training dept and the examining dept are really separate depts.

As I have said, the training dept has to be VERY careful about what it is seen to condone and encourage for the reasons I have previously given.

The test dept is not trying to encourage a certain style or technique, examiners are there to examine not teach. If something is done on test the examiner has to judge if it is done correctly or not and mark accordingly.

As I have also said, I think this is why the older school examiners can often be seen to have a slightly different view on this because this is what they were taught as opposed to what some may call the watered down version which some schools teach now. The official party line has to be not to encourage practices which, if they go wrong, could result in negative reactions against the party but examiners do not, or should not encourage anything. They are there to examine what is put before them.

So lets say that I take you out on a test. You drive as you describe you do. I have nothing to do with how you have prepared for the test and I am not influencing how you choose to drive the vehicle at all. The drive is safe, legal and you position the vehicle to advantage, why on earth would I or should I see this as a negative thing and fail you for doing it? Remember, if safety or legality is an issue we are talking about test failure, not which grade as awarded, so why would I fail you for doing as we describe?

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#39 24-03-11 08:03:34

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

ratty wrote:

Ask Trevor Dickenson about the subject.

Already have - he is the Staff examiner for my region

That's why I suggested you speak to him!

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#40 24-03-11 13:17:20

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: C1 Training

(ROG) wrote:
ratty wrote:

Ask Trevor Dickenson about the subject.

Already have - he is the Staff examiner for my region

That's why I suggested you speak to him!

I have spoken to a few examiners on the subject of crossing lane lines and have agreed that it is only right to point out what is safe and legal to do as an option but not, in any way, to encourage a driver to do something to which they are not comfortable with

TBH - that is what I do as a matter of course but there are some issues to which I must point out that the examiner will expect on test such as not continually overlapping braking and gears or signalling when done as a habit


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#41 24-03-11 14:50:04

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: C1 Training

Personally, I've always failed to see the issue with  brake/gear overlap for a normal driver, driving in normal conditions, and at normal speeds.

Perhaps someone can give me good arguments why this is a driving fault for all but emergency drivers, driving well in excess of 85%  of their, and their vehicles abilities.

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#42 24-03-11 16:33:11

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

As I'm sure you are aware Kevin the System of Car Control, as laid out in Roadcraft, was devised many years ago to try and reduce the number of crashes involving police officers. The idea was to try and introduce a way or "system of approaching and negotiating hazards this is methodical, safe and leaves nothing to chance. It promotes careful observation, early anticipation and planning, and a systematic use of the controls to achieve maximum vehicle stability. It is a systematic way of dealing with an unpredictable environment. It gives you the time to select the best position, speed and gear to negotiate the hazards safely and efficiently".

If you think about police officers in general, it's probably fair to say that the large majority have little interest in driving and no more skills that the average driver. Some are very good drivers, some are very poor, some want to pass the courses to further themselves, some see the courses as an extra badge, and some see the courses as a necessary evil. A way of teaching numerous drivers from numerous different backgrounds to drive to a given standard had to be devised. It was decided that it would be advantageous to have a system of driving which was as simple and efficient as possible. This resulted in the System of Car Control. A driver is encouraged to maintain a high level of all round observation at all times when driving. From the information gathered from this observation the driver then decides which will be the best place to position the vehicle on the road ahead bearing in mind safety and any other advantage there may be. The driver considers the speed of the vehicle. The speed should be such that the vehicle can be stopped safely on the correct side of the road in the distance the driver can see to be clear and can reasonable expect to remain clear. Speed can be reduced by using acceleration sense and / or by the use of the brakes. When the driver is happy with the speed the driver can then consider the gear selection. Having done this the vehicle should be on the correct position on the road, travelling at the correct speed with the correct gear engaged, and be able to be stopped as above. The driver can then use the accelerator to maintain the correct speed and then, as vision increases to accelerate if required.

Thinking about speed then gear. Vehicles crash because they are travelling at the wrong speed not because they are in the wrong gear. Therefore the driver should prioritise speed before gear. Obviously the driver has to steer the vehicle at all times so that is one thing the driver has to think about. If speed can be adjusted by using acceleration sense obviously just ease of the accelerator and steer the vehicle. If the brakes have to be used, just use the brakes and steer the vehicle. By using one of these methods the driver is just thinking about two things, steering and speed. That is about as simple and efficient as it gets! The driver is only using their hands and right leg and foot. The driver can apply maximum concentration to these two required actions without the added complication of having to take one hand off the steering wheel to change gear and use the left leg to press the clutch which can cause an imbalance in the seat because of the different pressures being applied by different legs. Also, until the vehicle is travelling at the correct speed the driver really does not know which gear will be required so why not get to the correct speed then decide which gear to select? How often have you seen drivers selecting gears which they then do not use and often don't even engage, why complicate things by doing this? The vast majority of the time only one gear change is necessary so why do more? Another advantage is if the driver completes the speed adjustment leaving enough time for a gear change they are building in a safety margin rather than planning to get the speed right with no safety margin. Another advantage is that if a driver completes their braking they can then use both feet to change gear resulting in a smoother gear change. By simplifying things, speed then gear, the driver can concentrate on the safety issue of getting to the correct speed without the added complication of thinking about gears. We all make mistakes but if you are just doing two things, steering and braking, I would suggest you are less likely to make a mistake than if you are steering with one hand, braking with one leg, changing gear with the other hand and operating the clutch with the remaining leg. Why complicate things?

The final point I would like to make is this. I'm sure we have all heard of and understand muscle memory. Surely if the driver is having to brake there is a safety issue, why take a hand of the wheel? I am regularly driven by drivers who's muscle memory is foot goes to brake and hand goes to gear lever because they have been taught and got into the habit of changing gear when they brake. Only this week I was a passenger in a car approaching ATS's. The lights had been green for some time so it was obvious that they were going to change soon. Just before we got to the point of no return sure enough the lights changed. The drive did two things at the same time, foot went to brake and hand went to the gear lever! WHY, the only thing we had to do was stop safely, why change gear! Just hold the wheel and brake. The driver had trained their body to react to when they brake they change gear! If a driver just concentrates on steering and braking if necessary surely that is safer? Surely it's better not to crash than change gear before crashing.

That is the theory behind speed THEN gear, simplicity and efficiency. Some agree with it, some don't. Over to you.

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#43 24-03-11 19:27:05

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: C1 Training

"just use the brakes and steer the vehicle".

I'm guessing you meant just use the brakes, THEN steer the vehicle smile

I abhor steer n gear.

But I was questioning brake/gear overlap being an issue for the general driving public,  which your very well thought out post doesn't really address.

If I'm approaching a junction to turn left from lets say 40mph.  What are the issues raised by braking, and whilst finishing the braking , but before reaching final speed, selecting an appropriate gear (lets say 2nd for arguments sake.)

Brake/gear overlap has occurred, but is it an issue?

I do understand Roadcraft system.  I also understand MSMPS(g)L system.  I also understand the principles that underline both.

I also understand the principles in a systermatic approach to hazards, or speed changing in general.

Breaking the processes down in a step by step configuration.

Get the speed correct (lets say, by use of brakes, off the brake when the appropriate speed is reached).
To maintain that speed, change the gear to proceed with that speed, or with gas sensitivity, to reduce or increase the speed with ease, by being in the appropriate gear.

However, that still does not give a sound enough argument for me to say it is wrong to be changing the gear to an appropriate gear if the final speed is known whilst still braking.

Of course, slapping the gear down as soon as braking occurs, without forthought for the final speed, or before taking into account changes in circumstances whilst braking is being applied is inappropriate driver behaviour.  As you say, the gear changing is being done habitually, rather than with applied thought.

But where the driver is taking into account the prevailing conditions, and knows the final speed, before braking has been completed, what is wrong with overlapping the brakes and gear change.

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#44 24-03-11 19:49:39

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

Well Kevin, as I have said, some agree with this, some don't.

"just use the brakes and steer the vehicle".

I'm guessing you meant just use the brakes, THEN steer the vehicle smile

I abhor steer n gear.

No, I am steering the vehicle whenever it is moving not just after braking. I mean holding the steering wheel and pressing the brake pedal at the same time, not necessarily turning the wheel, but holding it, steering the vehicle. The same as I'm steering the vehicle when I'm changing gear and indicating and looking in the mirror etc.

There are times when a partial overlap can be done to advantage, when releasing the brakes would result in increased speed prior to the gear being engaged for instance or for safety reasons to maybe comply with other drivers expectations but these are rare.

This technique works for me in all driving environment I encounter, not just emergency vehicle driving. I'm not saying it is the only safe way to drive or the best way to drive, it's just the way I drive and it's the way certain organisations suggest others should drive. If you disagree there's no problem.

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#45 24-03-11 20:22:32

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: C1 Training

This technique works for me in all driving environment I encounter, not just emergency vehicle driving. I'm not saying it is the only safe way to drive or the best way to drive, it's just the way I drive and it's the way certain organisations suggest others should drive. If you disagree there's no problem

.
I usually say that there are various safe methods in driving but some methods are SAFER than others


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#46 24-03-11 20:58:07

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: C1 Training

Personally, I've always failed to see the issue with  brake/gear overlap for a normal driver, driving in normal conditions, and at normal speeds.

Perhaps someone can give me good arguments why this is a driving fault for all but emergency drivers, driving well in excess of 85%  of their abilities.

An ambitious statement to make. Also unnecessary in the context of the subject.

Please evidence.  (Watching 100's of hours of reality TV does not constitute evidence).  wink

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#47 24-03-11 21:15:22

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: C1 Training

The evidence is in the large number of accidents involving police vehicles.  More than ambulance & fire engines put together.

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#48 24-03-11 21:46:56

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

What do you mean?

Again if your observation is based on watching the TV you will possibly have noticed that the large majority of police drivers rarely drive how they were taught, that may also at least partly account for the number of crashes. I should know, I have reported enough of them!

Of course the fact that police driving is very different to ambulance and fire brigade driving may also have something to do with it.

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#49 24-03-11 21:59:34

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: C1 Training

The evidence is in the large number of accidents involving police vehicles.  More than ambulance & fire engines put together.

Being that there are thousands more police vehicles than ambulances and fire engines, that hardly stacks up as a reasoned argument.
But being that you've introduced it, can you produce the figures of police, ambulance and fire brigade collisions over the last five years and that qualifies your statement?

My point, if you'd taken more time to read it was the "85% in excess of their abilities".  I'd like that to be evidenced, as in clearly, in a report.

As a starter look at the Lind Report 1988.

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#50 24-03-11 23:12:55

on board training
Guest

Re: C1 Training

Hi,

Lind Report is 22 years out of date. Emergency Service Training has been watered down substantially in a lot of situations due to budgets and man power pressures and rarely do the emergency service drivers get refresher training to ensure a minimum level of safe driving.

My opinions,

Brian

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