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#1 19-02-11 15:14:21

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,597

C1 Training

I have had an enquiry about training a person to become an ambulance driver.
I have looked at the direct.gov website and found this http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Dr … /DG_182840
but it has left me rather confused as to current requirements due to new regulations.
I have categories C1 and D1 on my driving licence but under new laws I will need to pass relevant tests and wait 3 years before I can act as an accompanying driver.  Is that correct?

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19-02-11 15:14:21

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Re: C1 Training




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#2 19-02-11 15:43:25

adi
Verified Member
From: shropshire
Registered: 28-02-04
Posts: 1,231
Website

Re: C1 Training

It sure is.

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#3 19-02-11 15:45:56

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,597

Re: C1 Training

Might be a daft question, but why do I have to wait 3 years before I can act as an accompanying driver?

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#4 19-02-11 16:54:17

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: C1 Training

To prevent someone who has only just passed their test, and so not had time to gain sufficient driving experience, from supervising a learner.

Actually for once the DVLA and DSA got this right. There was a lot of publicity surrounding this change in the law and both organisations encouraged people to pass their respective tests before April 2010 and then they could act as if they had held a full entitlement for the relevant period (3 yrs)
If you missed the boat you have to wait 3 years - just like a car.

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#5 19-02-11 17:30:43

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,597

Re: C1 Training

Thanks for that trunkmonkey, makes sense really.

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#6 19-02-11 19:12:13

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: C1 Training

Not that it matters now but there was a very grey area when someone with a pre 97 D1 with a 101 restriction (non PCV) wanted to supervise a D1 PCV learner

As said - if anyone wants to supervise a PCV or LGV learner then they must pass the relevant DSA PCV or LGV test to do so
If all they want the licence for is training purposes then they will not need the initial or periodic PCV/LGV driver cpc


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#7 21-03-11 18:51:19

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

I have had an enquiry about training a person to become an ambulance driver.
I have looked at the direct.gov website and found this http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Dr … /DG_182840
but it has left me rather confused as to current requirements due to new regulations.
I have categories C1 and D1 on my driving licence but under new laws I will need to pass relevant tests and wait 3 years before I can act as an accompanying driver.  Is that correct?

You could of course cover some of the course in a car, that is usually what the ambulance driving schools often do. They use cars to cover the theory and start the drivers driving systematically then switch to the larger vehicles.

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#8 21-03-11 18:52:50

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,597

Re: C1 Training

Thanks ratty, that is something I am considering doing.

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#9 21-03-11 19:20:17

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, do you know what the ambulance service will recognise as training?

I had a case two years ago where someone spent lots of money on 'advanced driver training' only to find that what he had been taught was not what the service wanted or recognised.

Result, total waste of money for client and he lost his course because he had been offered it on the understanding that he had received prior training.

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#10 21-03-11 19:47:27

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: C1 Training

At the risk of stating the blindingly obvious, do you know what the ambulance service will recognise as training?

I had a case two years ago where someone spent lots of money on 'advanced driver training' only to find that what he had been taught was not what the service wanted or recognised.

Result, total waste of money for client and he lost his course because he had been offered it on the understanding that he had received prior training.

Interesting .....
I have had 3 associates do the IAM advanced driver training with me and they found it to be invaluable for their ambulance training
they said it gave them a head start on most others on the course as most had never heard of Roadcraft

One said they had been used by their instructor to demonstrate many things to others on the ambulance course because of their knowledge of passing the advanced test


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#11 21-03-11 20:29:34

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,597

Re: C1 Training

I am given to understand that when a person has joined the ambulance service they will then receive blue ambulance training and any advanced driving taught before then would be of benefit.  My plan was to teach to DIAmond standard to enable them to take the DIAmond test prior to going on the ambulance course.

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#12 21-03-11 20:52:03

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

At the risk of upsetting you, I think you will find that Roadcraft is all the emergency services are remotely interested in.

DIAmond, in my experience, is unknown outside of the ADI world. Can I suggest that you discuss this with them first and tell them that DIAmond might not be recognised by their service as it is not Roadcraft based. In view of this the training you give might not be of much use to the client at all.

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#13 21-03-11 21:00:56

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,597

Re: C1 Training

Roadcraft it is then  wink

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#14 21-03-11 21:47:45

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: C1 Training

Vand Ratty is correct it will be roadcraft based in a slightly different format for the ambulance service

http://www.spservices.co.uk/product_inf … cts_id=988

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#15 21-03-11 21:54:27

on board training
Guest

Re: C1 Training

Hi,

While I would suggest Roadcraft may be the desired reference point for the drivers you are thinking of training and the book and DVD are ideal for this purpose...... I would also respectfully request that those who say the DIAmond is not suitable are maybe not thinking as clearly of driver training.

My understanding of driver training is that there is only one type of driver training using a safe and reliable system or routine - imagine the one long route is the path of your driver training and there may be either lay-bys or slip roads off and on again as the driver pauses to sit a test or is assessed and has achieved a particular standard i.e L-test, IAM, Pt 2, DIAmond, Cardington, RoSPA (in no particular order)

So in essence a driver who understands and applies a safe reliable system well to the correct standard with correct attitudes should do well with any of the tests/assessments above and any examiner/assessor will not notice any difference.

Brian 


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#16 22-03-11 06:28:32

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

Hi,

1   While I would suggest Roadcraft may be the desired reference point for the drivers you are thinking of training and the book and DVD are ideal for this purpose...... I would also respectfully request that those who say the DIAmond is not suitable are maybe not thinking as clearly of driver training.

2   My understanding of driver training is that there is only one type of driver training using a safe and reliable system or routine - imagine the one long route is the path of your driver training and there may be either lay-bys or slip roads off and on again as the driver pauses to sit a test or is assessed and has achieved a particular standard i.e L-test, IAM, Pt 2, DIAmond, Cardington, RoSPA (in no particular order)

So in essence a driver who understands and applies a safe reliable system well to the correct standard with correct attitudes should do well with any of the tests/assessments above and any examiner/assessor will not notice any difference.

Brian

1   Maybe you should contact the various emergency services driving schools and tell them this then!

2   My understanding of emergency services driver training, and after all that is what we are talking about here, is that the course usually starts with the chief instructor addressing the course and saying something along the lines of, 'We only have 3 weeks (not sure how long some ambulance courses are) to raise your driving standard to that which is required by the service and that standard is laid out in this service manual which is based on a book called Roadcraft.' I personally have never heard of them saying anything like what you have written in 2 above but obviously I could be wrong.

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#17 22-03-11 06:35:34

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

Vand Ratty is correct it will be roadcraft based in a slightly different format for the ambulance service

http://www.spservices.co.uk/product_inf … cts_id=988

The main difference is that ambulance driving schools usually want the student to take a gear earlier than suggested on police courses. So for instance when approaching a roundabout an ambulance student would be encouraged to get the speed phase completed and a gear selected before the driver KNEW it was safe to go and then be prepared to stop after taking a gear. This is different to the general police interpretation of the system of car control.

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#18 22-03-11 08:52:38

on board training
Guest

Re: C1 Training

Hi Ratty,

I remember asking a while ago if you could give an idea of your driver and/or training background and although I may have missed your reply, I don't recall it.

Your reply and tone of reply appears to have missed the point I was making in relation to driver training and you have immediately become, in my opinion overly defensive of Roadcraft.

The point I was making is quite simple really, if a high standard of driving is taught using a safe and reliable system then even if a trainer is using the high standards. in their mind, basing it on DIAmond and the person goes for a RoSPA test then they should pass and the examiner wouldn't notice the difference and vice versa.

This is where driver trainers maybe don't get it clear in their own head especially if they think their way or system is the only way when they haven't dipped their toe into the other way.

So I ask again for clarity of this and further posts Ratty, what is your background? I do not have hidden agendas, nor think I am better than anyone else, I simply have experiences which I can share, as merely being open with our own backgrounds and experiences may help others. If you are not comfortable posting openly, then please PM me.

Brian

#19 22-03-11 10:39:42

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: C1 Training

Does the DIAmond style of driving follow IPSGA and the same general teachings of the Roadcraft style?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#20 22-03-11 14:25:40

on board training
Guest

Re: C1 Training

Does the DIAmond style of driving follow IPSGA and the same general teachings of the Roadcraft style?

Hi Rog,

If you drove to MSPSGLADA or IPSGA you would not see any physical difference in the actual drive.

I teach to all levels and use the one main system of Mirrors, Signal Position, Speed, Gear, - look assess decide and act.

There is no difference, I would suggest the Mirrors, Signal are part of information, the initial look, assess and decide is part of information and if you drove using the system consistently and well you would pass either of the tests.

Brian

#21 22-03-11 16:19:07

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: C1 Training

Is the overlapping of the brake and gear frowned upon in the DIA way as it is in the Roadcraft way?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#22 22-03-11 16:35:43

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

And is positioning the vehicle for vision encouraged by the DIA?

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#23 22-03-11 19:07:43

on board training
Guest

Re: C1 Training

And is positioning the vehicle for vision encouraged by the DIA?

Hi Ratty, depends on what you actually mean by 'positioning the vehicle for vision'? as there are various interpretations of this and different styles of driving for different situations.

Firstly I would suggest you would need to look at; in what context the driving is being carried out, and, what you actually mean by positioning the vehicle for vision and is it appropriate in the context the vehicle is being driven?

I would assume that the training being suggested here is for normal advanced training within speed limits and not in blue light emergency response situations. In which case there is no difference between the Roadcraft 'true modern style' (i.e. not outdated and based on old editions of the book) and the same style of DSA or DIA, is as applicable as I have previously posted.

But over to you Ratty to answer a few questions.

Brian

#24 22-03-11 21:02:07

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

OK

As requested, this is to give you an idea of my driving background.

I started driving at seventeen and passed my IAM test a few years later becoming a training officer for one of the northern groups. After a few years working in engineering I moved south to join the police and after about three years, having passed my police bike course, joined the traffic department. I took more courses including one of the early IRV courses then the advanced car course. This advanced course was pre 1997 and included driving PCVs and HGVs. I then became a driving examiner for both the IAM and RoSPA. I am one of the few IAM examiner who has actually taken a live test myself as opposed to gaining membership through a test exemption. I went on to pass various other courses including my CE and DE tests and the Land Rover factory instructor's courses. I also became an advanced vehicle examiner (including issuing PG9s), passed my C&G advanced crash investigator's course and went on to become a tutor PC for new starters in the traffic dept.

During this time more and more people and companies were asking me to train them and /or their drivers so I started a business as a driving consultant. Following a court case I was involved in prosecuting I decided to take my ADI quals just to see how difficult it actually was and so that I could add the qualification to my expertise statement. I then took and passed all of the assessment tests for the driving school but was not accepted because, and I was told this by the HR dept, I was not politically correct enough! Big disappointment, but not big enough for me to lie about how I saw things. Shortly after this I was injured which resulted in me leaving the police. Fortunately, when I was fit to do some work again, I found the ADI quals very useful. I have been involved in training company drivers and preparing them for courses and tests including ambulance and police driving, HGV and PCV preparation, RoSPA and IAM tests and more recently eco driving presentations. I also assess and comply reports for legal companies for clients waiting to attend court following traffic offences. I do not teach novice drivers. I also do post crash courses for companies. I also keep in contact with police driving instructors and ambulance driving instructors.

As a result of my previous experience I think that I have an idea about how vehicles work and why they crash. Because of my experience of driving and riding numerous types of vehicles ranging from motor bikes through to artics I think I have a good idea about which techniques work for me, which techniques don't work for me, and why. Because of my experience in training and helping to prepare others for various tests and jobs I think I have enough experience to have an opinion about driving although I am always open to new ideas. Because of my experience in investigating crashes I think I have a good idea about how and why drivers (and pedestrians) get things wrong which can end up in death or injury.

That's basically me.

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#25 22-03-11 21:11:21

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: C1 Training

ratty wrote:

And is positioning the vehicle for vision encouraged by the DIA?

Hi Ratty, depends on what you actually mean by 'positioning the vehicle for vision'? as there are various interpretations of this and different styles of driving for different situations.

Firstly I would suggest you would need to look at; in what context the driving is being carried out, and, what you actually mean by positioning the vehicle for vision and is it appropriate in the context the vehicle is being driven?

I would assume that the training being suggested here is for normal advanced training within speed limits and not in blue light emergency response situations. In which case there is no difference between the Roadcraft 'true modern style' (i.e. not outdated and based on old editions of the book) and the same style of DSA or DIA, is as applicable as I have previously posted.

But over to you Ratty to answer a few questions.

Brian

Having been an IAM and RoSPA examiner for about fifteen years now, examined a couple of DSA quality control examiners, spoken to numerous DSA examiners and visited Cardington on a number of occasions and I think we both know that there is a difference in what the DSA looks for and what the likes of the IAM and RoSPA looks for when positioning a vehicle for vision regardless of which copy of Roadcraft is currently for sale.

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