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#1 09-03-11 23:24:51

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Assessor qualifications.

I know that all trainers on here will probably suggest that a driving assessor should be an ADI, and preferably Fleet, but there isn't a legal requirement for assessment if no instruction is given.

So, given that, what would be the panel's minimum qualifications for a commercial assessor - one who was being paid to assess drivers as part of an NVQ as an external A1 assessor?

I ask as I've just been told that the SAFED course I'm delivering (operator only) is all that is required for people to assess an element of an NVQ2 from City and Guilds.

The phrase 'can of worms' arises if this becomes commonplace, or have I missed a memo somewhere?

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09-03-11 23:24:51

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Re: Assessor qualifications.



#2 09-03-11 23:32:15

trunkmonkey
Member
Registered: 05-03-09
Posts: 747

Re: Assessor qualifications.

I've just been told by two educational establishments that NVQ's and A1 Assessors end in April.

NVQ's are being replaced by QCF's.  I'll find out some more on the A1/V1 front

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#3 09-03-11 23:35:00

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Assessor qualifications.

This qualification may well wind up being converted into a part of the 'modern apprenticeship'.

I'm more concerned about what people would consider a minimum qualification criteria for someone acting as an external paid driving assessor than what the current post 16 climate is like - the missus is writing an article on that at the moment and it's looking pretty bleak whatever happens.

However, it could impact fleet trainers quite badly if anyone with half a day's worth of defensive driving course can go and charge for their services.

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#4 10-03-11 08:03:46

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: Assessor qualifications.

Tim I woke up in a good mood until I read your post!!!!!!!!! lol    Hopefully the big boys in the business will insist that all trainers are ADI as a minimum to ensure quality and consistency across the board, I was shadowing an A1 assessor last year and to be honest he didn't have a clue what he was talking about, he was given drivers duff information, scary really!

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#5 10-03-11 08:38:33

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Assessor qualifications.

I am not an ADI but have been assessing drivers for over 11 years as a volunteer senior observer for the IAM

As far as I can see there is no reason that I could not be paid to ASSESS and give feedback to say a company fleet of drivers

I think the law says that I cannot get paid to INSTRUCT

Have I got that right?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#6 10-03-11 09:24:01

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Assessor qualifications.

As far as I can see there is no reason that I could not be paid to ASSESS and give feedback to say a company fleet of drivers

Fleet work is not only about assessing.  There would be no point in that if those being assessed didn't learn from it.    Knowledge is gained in the process, for the purpose of improving standards.  That's the same as teaching someone something different or new.
That's  exactly what IAM and Rospa do on advanced courses, but of course they cannot charge for it.

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#7 10-03-11 17:19:00

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Assessor qualifications.

Daz - if there's anyone bigger than City & Guilds, providing NVQs with an element of driver assessment, I don't know who it is.

Rog - as you hold an advanced driving certification, have proof of your ability, and if you had some description of assessment qualification, I would have no problem.

The issue is that C&G have told a group of A1 NVQ assessors that they can commercially assess drivers with nothing more than a half day SAFED course - I personally think that this is too little. An assessor should hold an advanced driving qualification, should be able to evidence use of advanced driving styles in their work, and have undertaken a course in how to assess driving in particular.

The guys I am working with have been asked to assess van drivers, when half of them don't even know the speed limits, or parking restrictions, let alone best practice in defensive driving.

Roadmaster. The NVQ does not require any formal training. It is assessed. You either pass, or you are revisited after you have worked on the feedback given. I fully understand the issues with where the line is drawn on assessment/instruction, and actually agree that one without the other is stupid/impossible to impose. But from the legal standpoint there is currently no legal reason why these guys can't assess, with no qualification at all. I'd guess that in law, there is no requirement for them to even have a license initially - this would only become a problem under H&S legislation once a problem had occurred.

What I want to know is what the rest of you think should be a minimum qualification structure for a professional external driving assessor?

Personally I'd be tempted to show them the DSA examiner's training regime. They're just assessors, but they go through a hell of a lot of training before they're allowed close to the public.

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#8 10-03-11 17:31:55

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: Assessor qualifications.

Personally I'd be tempted to show them the DSA examiner's training regime. They're just assessors, but they go through a hell of a lot of training before they're allowed close to the public.

I think thats your answer Tim

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#9 10-03-11 17:37:44

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Assessor qualifications.

Daz - I said tempting, but I also know it's unrealistic.

What I'd really like to know is what the bare minimum should be.

I'll suggest an advanced driving qualification (pref RoSPA or DIAmond due to the re-qualification requirement), and a couple of days of assessor training, along with some form of regular theory testing - probably to ADI Part 1 standards, but geared toward professional drivers, so including a large element of van info.

I've run similar courses for guys doing in-house driver assessment. The minimum they've had has been 8 days with a 2:1 candidate:instructor ratio. Rospa test on day 5, minimum Silver to continue.

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#10 10-03-11 18:14:16

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Assessor qualifications.

My own personal view is that anyone assessing or testing any driver for any reason, and there is a monetary cost involved, then it should be conducted by a person that also holds either an ADI certificate, or a DSA warrant card or equivelent.

It's been a real bugbear of mine that the "advanced" driving organisations claim to not charge for training (because the "observers" are not paid directly) and their assesors and testers dont give instruction.
However, a driver has to pay to be a member before he can receive training.  So payment for training has taken place.
Also, assessors and testers DO give advice, guidance and driving tips to those they assess and test, thus educating the driver.  Education being just one way of instructing.


I have long held the belief that the "advanced" motoring organisations have been breaching the law, and the DSA and DFT have been complicit by failing to act, or accepting the "advanced" organisations' view on the regulations, and their own pricing system.

I'm not interested in counter-arguments to my views, it's an often discussed/debated topic on the forums, and I have no wish to skew the thread away from the OP's intended discussion points.

I merely posted what I have, in support of my opinion that ANY assesor or tester should either hold an ADI licence, or a DSA warrant card or equivelent.

P.S.
I'd be more than happy if the DSA insisted that the assessors or testers for the "Advanced Driving" organisations had to hold a Warrant Card of some kind under a scheme approved by the DSA.
Perhaps that would put an end to the "Should they be ADI's or not" debate.  smile

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#11 10-03-11 19:16:33

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Assessor qualifications.

I'd be more than happy if the DSA insisted that the assessors or testers for the "Advanced Driving" organisations had to hold a Warrant Card of some kind under a scheme approved by the DSA.
Perhaps that would put an end to the "Should they be ADI's or not" debate.  smile

Clear and sensible as usual Kevin.

The above would make perfect sense, but as I've found in other areas of training, the DSA don't want to get involved. I've reported whole institutions for taking money from people to qualify them to give cat B training, and they've turned their noses up at it, in order to hand out slaps on the wrists to occasional errant ADIs/PDIs.

At some point they may spot the bigger picture.

If they were to hand out 'warrant cards' what would you recommend as a qualification route?

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#12 10-03-11 19:26:14

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Assessor qualifications.

How would someone in my position as a senior observer for the IAM benefit from being an ADI when the training regime for an ADI is gearded to teach those who are going for a basic licence?

As a LGV instructor I would not have benefitted from being an ADI - how do I know that? - because those LGV instructors who were already ADIs or had joined the voluntary DSA LGV register had no better test results than I did - in fact, some had worse results!!


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#13 10-03-11 19:28:09

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Assessor qualifications.

Rog - in answer to your question, you may not benefit one iota in any sphere other than that of being legal to give instruction. (You may benefit hugely however - pass rates are not an indication of instructional ability.)

This is an issue which has been discussed many times before, in many fora, and on many threads. It is not the purpose of this one.

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#14 10-03-11 19:44:34

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Assessor qualifications.

I would like to point out that I have a great respect for the majority of ADIs

I do not think that teaching basic licence learners would be suited to me on a regular basis

I do have a particular talent for improving the driving of those learners post basic test to advanced standard and for teaching the LGV upgrades

Each to their own I suppose

I do not agree with the law that says I cannot charge car drivers for post basic test training as my talents would benefit fleet operators for example
I would like to see another regime (not the DSA) that would approve me to do the above legally but that is probably a debate on it's own!!


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#15 10-03-11 19:49:36

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Assessor qualifications.

Rog - start another thread and we'll all join in. It's a debate that has gone on for ages, but which has some valid points. The main one being that the ADI part 3 bears little if no relation to teaching post test, and considering the DSA has a duty to ensure that all Cat B training is regulated, many of us feel that they are derelict in their duty to providing a route of entry onto the register for those who only train post test candidates, for whatever reason.

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#16 10-03-11 20:00:45

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Assessor qualifications.

If they were to hand out 'warrant cards' what would you recommend as a qualification route?

I've no objection to a warrant scheme, where the warrants were issued by the driving organisation, provided the training and testing and qualification to acheive such a warrant card be approved by the DSA. Check tests to be carried out on the maintainance of the scheme  (Similar to ORDIT part 1, administration checks).
The actual testing/training regime could remain in house.  But each organisation should keep clear and accurate records of regular checktesting of its trainers and assesors, and any CPD requirements that may be hilighted.

There are several civilian and government organisations that do have warranted examiners/testers.  I see no reason why the "advanced" organisations should not be required to also be subjected to the same scrutiny.

I think the same for assessors such as the OP is discussing.

A side step.....
I think all vehicle trainers should be required to be ADI's.

I do not accept the argument that  "I get my clients through the test first time more than the ADI trainers do,  My clients require less hours...... my clients get fewer faults......

My father in law taught my mrs and her brother and several other people to drive for free.  They all passed first time.  That doesnt mean he was better than many ADI's.  It merely means he was skilled enough to get someone through the test.

By actually having to pass a qualification, and to be seen to have reached a minimum standard, and by having to be regularly checktested, thus demonstrating an ability to be able to continue to demonstrate at least the minimum acceptable standard is far greater than allowing anyone and anyone with a licence to take money off of the public for driving lessons.

I too have been involved in observing both ADI's and non ADI lgv trainers at work.  Some of the non ADI trainers quite frankly were a disgrace, but they still managed to get some of their clients through the test.

If only they actually had proper training, they maybe could have got the same people through their test quicker, and provided them with far more knowledge, due to their own instructional  abilities being assessed.

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#17 10-03-11 20:09:29

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Assessor qualifications.

I would like to point out that the IAM has a regular cross check of everybody involved

The advanced test is approved by the DSA

All examiners are police traffic - serving or ex

The staff examiners (one per region) check each other

The Staff examiners check the examiners

staff examiners check the senior observers every 6 years - In the middle of those 6 years the seniors check each other

senior observers check the qualified observers every 3 years

Trainee observers are trained by senior observers

how does that compare with what ADIs do?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#18 10-03-11 20:11:33

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Assessor qualifications.

Rog - please do this on a new thread.

It is not relevant to this one. We'll be more than happy to join in there.

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#19 10-03-11 21:53:59

finch
Member
Registered: 17-09-09
Posts: 168

Re: Assessor qualifications.

I have done and passed the IAM Test and enjoyed all aspects but how you describe the checks it appears very insular with very little if no external monitioring at a grass roots level. But having said that I think most of you do a very good and worthwile job.

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#20 11-03-11 11:03:05

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Assessor qualifications.

Rog - please do this on a new thread.

It is not relevant to this one. We'll be more than happy to join in there.

One of original questions was about who qualifies as a commercial assessor and then later what was the cross checking so I thought it relevant to point out that there are people in other organisations from the DSA/ADI that seem to fit the criteria


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#21 12-03-11 15:23:47

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Assessor qualifications.

Fair point Rog. I didn't realise that response was to the OP, and assumed it was a continuation of the argument over whether you should be allowed to instruct post test drivers.

From your point of view, which level within the IAM would you suggest as a minimum if the IAM decided they would like to hire some of you out as assessors?

And where would you personally draw the line between assessing (legal for non-ADIs) and instruction (not legal for non-ADIs, but commonplace within professional training organisations)?

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#22 13-03-11 14:22:49

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Assessor qualifications.

From your point of view, which level within the IAM would you suggest as a minimum if the IAM decided they would like to hire some of you out as assessors?

And where would you personally draw the line between assessing (legal for non-ADIs) and instruction (not legal for non-ADIs, but commonplace within professional training organisations)?

Qualified observer for answer one

The assessor MUST NOT TELL the driver to do anything in answer to question two - would you like to turn left at the crossroads please?


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#23 13-03-11 17:57:44

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Assessor qualifications.

I think there is a lot more to this than just not TELLING people to do things.

In my view assessing is very similar to examining. An assessor or examiner watches someone do something, this often includes asking questions, compares that to a know standard and makes a decision about if the person is, in this case, driving to that standard. They do not try to improve the candidate's standard, they are assessing them not teaching them.

My understanding of 'instruction' is that knowledge is passed on to the other person by the instructor which is what IAM and RoSPA observers do the same as ADIs. I'm sure I saw that in a DSA letter somewhere.

Certainly when doing fleet work the instructor does not 'tell' the client to do anything, it's usually not the instructor's vehicle and they are there to try to help the client not bully them or tell them what to do in their own car.

I would suggest that simply relying on the 'I don't tell them what to do therefore I do not have to be an instructor' line is far too simplistic. I would also suggest ROG that if you have so much experience teaching IAM candidate for their test, the ADI qualifying exams should not be hard for you to pass and would be to you benefit.

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#24 13-03-11 18:06:58

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: Assessor qualifications.

I know that all trainers on here will probably suggest that a driving assessor should be an ADI, and preferably Fleet, but there isn't a legal requirement for assessment if no instruction is given.

So, given that, what would be the panel's minimum qualifications for a commercial assessor - one who was being paid to assess drivers as part of an NVQ as an external A1 assessor?

I ask as I've just been told that the SAFED course I'm delivering (operator only) is all that is required for people to assess an element of an NVQ2 from City and Guilds.

The phrase 'can of worms' arises if this becomes commonplace, or have I missed a memo somewhere?

I think the main thing anyone assessing someone else has to have credibility in the person being assessed's eyes. In order to have that the person assessing usually has to be able to do the job being assessed to at least the same and hopefully higher standard than those being assessed. If, for instance, someone who has not passed their HGV test is assessing HGV drivers, the assessor will have very little or no credibility. I think the same applies to teaching, I'm not convinced someone who has not actually done something can teach someone else to do it very well.

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#25 14-03-11 11:26:21

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Assessor qualifications.

I think the main thing anyone assessing someone else has to have credibility in the person being assessed's eyes. In order to have that the person assessing usually has to be able to do the job being assessed to at least the same and hopefully higher standard than those being assessed. If, for instance, someone who has not passed their HGV test is assessing HGV drivers, the assessor will have very little or no credibility. I think the same applies to teaching, I'm not convinced someone who has not actually done something can teach someone else to do it very well.

Excellent post


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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