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#1 16-09-10 19:54:45

catweazle
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-08
Posts: 75

insurance

does the supervising driver need to be insured on learners car as long as learner is insured

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16-09-10 19:54:45

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Re: insurance



#2 16-09-10 20:02:46

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: insurance

Insurance covers the driver(s) of the car.  So unless the superviser is going to drive the car the answer is no.

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#3 26-02-11 17:17:29

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: insurance

Just seen this.

By 'supervising' do you mean as a driving instructor? If so, doesn't the instructor have to be prepared to take control if necessary? (I don't teach L drivers so I don't really know) I would have thought that if someone is instructing and an incident occurs where the instructor could have prevented a problem by taking control they could be criticised if they don't. If they change the car's direction by controlling it's steering or change it's speed by braking, legally aren't they driving it? If so, surely they have to be insured.

I accept that if someone is just acting as an accompanying passenger and does not intend to control the vehicle's direction or speed this may be different, but would someone really just sit there and let someone else crash if they could do something about it?

Just a thought.

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#4 26-02-11 18:50:07

on board training
Guest

Re: insurance

Hi,

My opinion re this: there is no need for a supervising driver to be insured to drive unless they are going to be driving, by sitting in the front passenger seat of a car and only being able to control steering, then I would suggest this is not driving according tot he definition.

If on the other hand, the passenger had control of direction and speed if duals fitted which is unlikely in normal car, then that may be different.

Most instructor policies do cover supervising driver in their own car but should still check.

Brian

#5 26-02-11 20:14:35

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: insurance

I have to say that any 'supervising' driver who is not prepared to and insured to drive if circumstances materialise should not, in my opinion, be supervising anyone.

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#6 26-02-11 20:40:08

on board training
Guest

Re: insurance

I have to say that any 'supervising' driver who is not prepared to and insured to drive if circumstances materialise should not, in my opinion, be supervising anyone.

Hi ratty,

The difference here is your opinion and what legal requirements may be.

A supervising driver, is seen as doing that 'supervising' and not driving.

If it had been posted as - a supervising driver is going to drive the car does he/she need insurance? Of course they do.

I do take on opinions of all on the forum - but you have put it a bit strong for an opinion, when th eactual law does not require it! :police:

I actually took a number of learner drivers out and supervised them while I was training to be an instructor and it was in their own car as I did not go trainee - I wasn't too bothered about me being insured to drive the car as my intention was only to supervise and out of a few learners and numerous hours the occasion never arose that I had to drive.

I had third part cover extension on my comprehensive private car policy and had no intention of using it.

Brian

#7 26-02-11 20:58:08

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: insurance

That's why I included 'in my opinion' in my post!

In my opinion, I can easily foresee that a supervising driver may have to take over the car, if the novice looses their nerve or just gets in out of their depth. As you have mentioned, twice, the law is one thing and doing it right is sometimes another. I have even been in the position of having to take over the driving when being driven by experienced drivers who have become very upset or unwell so I have no doubt it can happen to novice drivers as well. I certainly wouldn't want a supervising driver who was not prepared to take over to take out a novice.

Sorry but I stick by what I have said. I'm a believer in doing it right or not bothering. Just my strong opinion of course.

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#8 26-02-11 21:34:27

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: insurance


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#9 26-02-11 21:55:31

Adi1234
Guest

Re: insurance

No need to be insured On a learners car. Although I would think Most driving instructors would be covered for third party liabilitys anyway Most people who have fully comp insurance are covered to drive any other car third party Only. However You do need the car owners permission to be covered legally.

#10 26-02-11 22:29:34

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: insurance

I think we have already established the legal side of this, I'm talking about the professional side of things.

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#11 26-02-11 22:55:20

on board training
Guest

Re: insurance

does the supervising driver need to be insured on learners car as long as learner is insured

Ah, I see we need to discect a question, read into it the professional answer rather than the correct legal answer  roll

Brian (nough said wink)


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#12 26-02-11 23:15:44

Adi1234
Guest

Re: insurance

I think we have already established the legal side of this, I'm talking about the professional side of things.

The proffesional side of things would be for the client to be learning In A driving school car equipped with dual controls and abs and modern safety features.,

#13 27-02-11 07:40:15

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: insurance

If you don't feel confident about supervising someone in their car, don't do it.  Simple.  It's nothing to do with being professional. 

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#14 27-02-11 09:43:36

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: insurance

So, in answer to the original question,

does the supervising driver need to be insured on learners car as long as learner is insured

Might it be fair to say that it is debatable if a supervisor NEEDS to be insured to do the job correctly, but there is no REQUIREMENT in law for them to be insured?

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#15 27-02-11 09:58:58

on board training
Guest

Re: insurance

So, in answer to the original question,

catweazle wrote:

does the supervising driver need to be insured on learners car as long as learner is insured

Might it be fair to say that it is debatable if a supervisor NEEDS to be insured to do the job correctly, but there is no REQUIREMENT in law for them to be insured?

Hi Ratty,

There is no debate at all for the question asked as the simple and only answer is - no.

If you were in the car with me I would suggest - get rid of the verbal clutter, simply answer the question asked.

Do you carry the debate into what you do with training in the car with learners, or do you still not work with learners?

Brian


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#16 27-02-11 11:15:44

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: insurance

An otherwise  passive passenger sees a child run into the road, grabs the wheel and averts hitting the child, but by doing so, collides with a parked car.

Has he acted unlawfully by "driving" the car without insurance?
No.  He was not the driver.

Supervising Driver.
The definition of a supervising driver is a person who is not in direct control of the vehicle, is supervising/teaching a learner driver, has had a full licence for 3 years and is over 21 years of age.

A qualified driving instructor is a supervising driver who can receive payment for supervising.
It doesnt matter what controls are available, or reachable by a passenger. The driver is deemed to be the person in the normal drivers position.

The driver, wether qualified, unqualified or unlicenced, is still the driver and is the only person who requires insurance to drive the vehicle. (Normally, unlicenced drivers cannot obtain insurance and so cannot drive).

A driver is charged with the responsibility of being in control of the vehicle and should only do so in a competant manner.

A supervising driver should only drive the vehicle if suitably insured, or in the event of immenent danger to life or limb, and only so far as to the nearest place of safety.  That is the same for any member of the public. (An offence of driving without insurance is still being committed, but there is a precedence of defence of such a charge, but this really is going off at a tangent from the original subject).

Normally, there is no NEED for a supervising driver to be insured. As the driver is responsible for their own actions and should be capable of only driving within their abilities.

Yes, a supervising driver has a responsibility in this too.  That is, to ensure the driver is driving within their abilities, with assistance if required.
However, that does not mean the superviser should be insured to drive the vehicle, only that he should satisfy himself that he is capable of supervising the driver to maintain control.

Should a supervising driver fail to supervise correctly, then he may be subject to legal proceedings, however, he has no responsibity to take full control of a vehicle by driving it himself.

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#17 27-02-11 12:19:05

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: insurance

Hi Ratty,

1  There is no debate at all for the question asked as the simple and only answer is - no.

2  If you were in the car with me I would suggest - get rid of the verbal clutter, simply answer the question asked.

3  Do you carry the debate into what you do with training in the car with learners, or do you still not work with learners?

Brian

Re 1. OK insurance is legally not needed, agreed.

2. There must be lots of 'yes' or 'no' answers and short conversations in your training car wink.

3. I don't work with novice drivers. I used one to help me pass my pt 3 but not since. And before anyone starts to comment on my use of the work 'used', yes I did use her to pass my test the same as she used me to pass her's.

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#18 27-02-11 12:22:29

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: insurance

Might it be fair to say that it is debatable if a supervisor NEEDS to be insured to do the job correctly

You can't get insurance for passengers to drive a car.   Go on, try it if you don't believe us.

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#19 27-02-11 12:36:03

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: insurance

It's comforting to know that so many of you have never had to take over the driving.

So if you pick someone up from their home for their first lesson, they obviously drive away from there! No one has ever come over sick or upset so you have had to drive. I presume that if you are happy doing this you would be happy if I turned up to teach your kids / friend / family to drive and I said something along the lines of 'Don't worry. If something happens I'm only a passenger so I can't ever drive the car, I'll just as the driver to pull in at a safe place and we will leave the car there for you to collect and we will just walk home or I'll just leave the driver to sort it out because I don't need to be insured so I can't do anything else!' ?

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#20 27-02-11 12:39:55

on board training
Guest

Re: insurance

on board training wrote:

Hi Ratty,

1  There is no debate at all for the question asked as the simple and only answer is - no.

2  If you were in the car with me I would suggest - get rid of the verbal clutter, simply answer the question asked.

3  Do you carry the debate into what you do with training in the car with learners, or do you still not work with learners?

Brian

Re 1. OK insurance is legally not needed, agreed.

2. There must be lots of 'yes' or 'no' answers and short conversations in your training car wink.

3. I don't work with novice drivers. I used one to help me pass my pt 3 but not since. And before anyone starts to comment on my use of the work 'used', yes I did use her to pass my test the same as she used me to pass her's.

Hi ratty,

From an instructor training point of view, I would look at the OP question as one that a PDI may ask or indeed the trainer in role may ask to establish knowledge from PDI.

If you answered the question the way you did on the forum - I would reply exactly as I did - it is a question requiring a simple yes or no answer, not one that would generate debate and instill some confusion.

If you did work with novice drivers you may realise that it is highly unlikely that you would need to drive their car.

Simple really,

Brian


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#21 27-02-11 12:42:17

on board training
Guest

Re: insurance

It's comforting to know that so many of you have never had to take over the driving.

So if you pick someone up from their home for their first lesson, they obviously drive away from there! No one has ever come over sick or upset so you have had to drive. I presume that if you are happy doing this you would be happy if I turned up to teach your kids / friend / family to drive and I said something along the lines of 'Don't worry. If something happens I'm only a passenger so I can't ever drive the car, I'll just as the driver to pull in at a safe place and we will leave the car there for you to collect and we will just walk home or I'll just leave the driver to sort it out because I don't need to be insured so I can't do anything else!' ?

Hi ratty,

The fact you said you don't have experience with novice drivers, I would rather one of our trainees who does have experience took one of my kids out (if they were still novice drivers)

Brian

#22 27-02-11 12:45:25

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: insurance

So now who's dodging the question?

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#23 27-02-11 12:51:29

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: insurance

It's comforting to know that so many of you have never had to take over the driving

That's because I'm a very good instructor  wink

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#24 27-02-11 12:58:12

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: insurance

So if you pick someone up from their home for their first lesson, they obviously drive away from there!

No, I drive away, it's my car.  I wouldn't get in a non-dualled car with anyone until I've seen them drive.


No one has ever come over sick or upset so you have had to drive

.
No, but If it's their car, my insurance covers me to drive it. (third party as mentioned previously)

I presume that if you are happy doing this you would be happy if I turned up to teach your kids / friend / family to drive and I said something along the lines of 'Don't worry. If something happens I'm only a passenger so I can't ever drive the car, I'll just as the driver to pull in at a safe place and we will leave the car there for you to collect and we will just walk home or I'll just leave the driver to sort it out because I don't need to be insured so I can't do anything else!' ?

You don't half rant.  Are you talking about using the learner's car?  If so, see reply above.

If you turned up to teach my kids and started ranting like that  about insurance I would tell you to go home and I'll find another instructor.

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#25 27-02-11 13:24:04

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: insurance

Initial question states 'learner's car'.

So if you are using their car for the lesson you are actually insured to drive their car under your own insurance policy.

If you think I am ranting you have obviously lead a VERY sheltered life.

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