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#1 01-02-11 15:46:13

Freedom Phil
Verified Member
From: Sunderland, North East UK
Registered: 31-03-09
Posts: 342
Website

maybe I am being too analytical but....

Imagine I am going to change lanes on a dual c/w and I know for definitely in this case I have to signal and check blind spot


DIA diploma in driving instruction.  DSA registered fleet trainer.  ORDIT registered trainer part's 1, 2, 3 & ORDIT premises inspected.  SAFED trainer and assessor.  RoSPA approved tutor.  Diamond registered advanced instructor.  Diamond qualified advanced examiner. City & Guilds 7303 PTLLS teaching certificate.  IAM advanced test, Diamond advanced test, Diamond special test, Cardington special test, RoSPA gold

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01-02-11 15:46:13

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Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....



#2 01-02-11 16:20:52

Roadmaster
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Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

Do you mean  turn your head and look over your shoulder?   At 60 mph?

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#3 01-02-11 16:24:40

Freedom Phil
Verified Member
From: Sunderland, North East UK
Registered: 31-03-09
Posts: 342
Website

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

no I mean a quick sideways glance, following the advice in the highway code, driving the essential skills and roadcraft  yikes :? yikes :? yikes :?

but of course, i'm sure you know better than everyone else, don't you  roll

.phil.
:angel:


DIA diploma in driving instruction.  DSA registered fleet trainer.  ORDIT registered trainer part's 1, 2, 3 & ORDIT premises inspected.  SAFED trainer and assessor.  RoSPA approved tutor.  Diamond registered advanced instructor.  Diamond qualified advanced examiner. City & Guilds 7303 PTLLS teaching certificate.  IAM advanced test, Diamond advanced test, Diamond special test, Cardington special test, RoSPA gold

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#4 01-02-11 16:27:12

Roadmaster
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Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

It was a question in case you hadn't noticed the ? ? ?

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#5 01-02-11 17:27:00

martin_t
Verified Member
Registered: 30-12-06
Posts: 357

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

You don't necessarily have to signal neither do you necessarily have to check your blind spot.

But...

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#6 01-02-11 19:34:58

finch
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Registered: 17-09-09
Posts: 168

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

Just ignore him he might go away

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#7 12-02-11 14:56:44

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

Imagine I am going to change lanes on a dual c/w and I know for definitely in this case I have to signal and check blind spot

I am presuming that you have decided you have to signal because it would / might benefit some other road user you already know to be there, ie someone who is not in your blind spot.

I would check my blind spot before signalling because, depending upon what I see when I check, I might want to delay my signal or change my mind about when to change lane. I have to check all around me to be able to make these decisions correctly. Until I've checked my blind spot I don't know what is around me. I can then decide the timing of my signal, apply it, and if I, want re check before the manoeuvre itself.

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#8 12-02-11 18:17:49

Luchell
Verified Member
From: Salisbury
Registered: 12-06-07
Posts: 1,661

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

I wouldn't check my blindspot on the move at such speeds. I would do a quick 'kiss the parrot' glance however. Full blindspot check could lead to interesting consequences on the move especially at such speeds whereas a quick 'kiss the parrot' check doesn't lead to such a turn of the shoulders that could lead the vehicle off course.

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#9 12-02-11 19:50:17

metalmicky
Verified Member
From: Chesterfield
Registered: 10-01-11
Posts: 802
Website

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

If you are checking your mirrors effectively, no blind spot check should be necessary, according to Catherine Foster-Wilson, The very nice (note slight sarcasm) senior examiner who took me for my check test a couple of years ago.  I was getting my pupil to do chin to shoulder blind spot checks and was told it was unnecessary if mirrors were used effectively. 
She did give some very positive feedback overall and gave me a 5. 
Part of the problem with blind spot checks at speed, is the distance you cover in a single second with your attention sideways.  At 70mph you will travel 102.67 feet per second. 
Just something for consideration.


Just because I'm a driving instructor, it doesn't make me a dual control freak. 
www.way-ahead-driving.co.uk

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#10 12-02-11 20:16:18

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 838

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

The OP asked, “Imagine I am................”. Firstly, an experienced driver such as an ADI should be able to make any angle of blind spot check without steering being compromised should such a check be necessary.

It is possible most of the time to keep track of the right lane behind, but circumstances can arise when an unplanned quick evasive action into the right hand lane is necessary without a recent image of the right lane behind still in memory, in this circumstance it would be foolish to not check the blind spot.

My advise to my pupils is, if ever you are not 100% sure that your blind spot is clear then check it. (Rather than always or never.)

I do occasionally get pupils from elsewhere that look around too far even when moving off, they turn around so far that they are looking into the area already easily visible in the door mirror.

There does seem to be some misinterpretation on this subject. And I think examiners need to choose their words very carefully when de-briefing this type of fault.

Maz.

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#11 13-02-11 09:11:35

ijmoore
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
Website

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

I agree with good mirrors in quiet dual cw, and m way it is not always necessary to do shoulder check.  However it is a good habit to do sideways glance NOT stare of traditional 'blindspot' check, as per note above.

In terms of the original question it is not put into context, is it dual cw or from standstill?

In anycase, the principle of information taken in before signaling or manoeuvring applies.  Like with anything in life it's always wise to find out the relevant info before acting., therefore generally I'd check both mirrors & blindspot (glance or full shoulder checks) before signaling etc...

As above, depending how my mirrors are looking, and how confident I am I mat not do shoulder or glance at higher speed. This is quite rare thought.

Finally, its worth noting listening is also a key part of the info stage.


Fleet Training
Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#12 13-02-11 09:32:28

metalmicky
Verified Member
From: Chesterfield
Registered: 10-01-11
Posts: 802
Website

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

Yes, observe with your ears as well as your eyes.


Just because I'm a driving instructor, it doesn't make me a dual control freak. 
www.way-ahead-driving.co.uk

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#13 13-02-11 09:49:28

ijmoore
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
Website

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

LOL quite! It's overlooked though by many drivers! Particularly at closed juctions


Fleet Training
Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#14 13-02-11 11:54:07

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

The OP asked, “Imagine I am................”. Firstly, an experienced driver such as an ADI should be able to make any angle of blind spot check without steering being compromised should such a check be necessary.

Maz.

I agree. I also think that during normal driving an experienced driver such as an ADI should be driving with sufficient safety margin in front of them so that being able to take time to do a blind spot check should not be a problem at any speed.

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#15 20-02-11 10:39:33

Jimmy David
Member
From: Fareham, Hampshire
Registered: 03-01-07
Posts: 74
Website

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

I will always gather as much info as possible, and then signal and manoeuvre accordingly, whilst continuing to gather info. This is what I practice and preach :angel:


www.onewaydrivingschool.org Driving lessons Fareham, Driving Lessons Gosport, Driving Lessons Portsmouth, Driving Lessons Southampton

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#16 20-02-11 13:47:33

jonsmithuk
Verified Member
Registered: 27-10-07
Posts: 403

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

Question for Maz . Why should you ever have to take quick unplanned evasive action on a dual carriageway ? Only a fool forgets the 2 second rule. As for anyone suggesting looking over the shoulder at high speed , go look for your marbles, coz you have obviously lost them.

All lane changes on dual carriageway should be planned . Rear view mirror, wing mirror , signal if necessary , if safe ,move . Kiss.
Keep it simple stupid.

ps. can anyone explain what kiss the parrot means ? please pm me the answer. thanks

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#17 20-02-11 14:45:07

MAZ
Verified Member
From: N/Wales, Cheshire
Registered: 13-06-06
Posts: 838

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

Question for Maz . Why should you ever have to take quick unplanned evasive action on a dual carriageway ? Only a fool forgets the 2 second rule. As for anyone suggesting looking over the shoulder at high speed , go look for your marbles, coz you have obviously lost them.

All lane changes on dual carriageway should be planned . Rear view mirror, wing mirror , signal if necessary , if safe ,move . Kiss.
Keep it simple stupid.

ps. can anyone explain what kiss the parrot means ? please pm me the answer. thanks

Unfortunately johnsmithuk "other drivers" make mistakes, although we anticipate the actions of other road users to a degree based on our experiance of what "another driver" might do, someone can always come up with a new mistake, which is why after decades in this game I am still learning.

As to checking the blind spot at “high speed” (I assume you mean 70 mph), I see no problem in doing this if ahead is clear for a good distance.

BTW “Kissing the parrot” although not a term I use, but many do. Refers to turning ones head to the right to kiss the parrot that sits on your shoulder. (Long John Silver, pieces of eight, slice the main brace, shiver me timbers and all that stuff).

Maz.

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#18 20-02-11 17:11:00

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

As for anyone suggesting looking over the shoulder at high speed , go look for your marbles, coz you have obviously lost them.

I would suggest that a blind spot check is usually good advice before crossing all painted lines such as lane markers. As I would also suggest that looking over my shoulder at speeds well in excess of 70mph is a good thing I presume that I should be looking for my marbles as well? I also presume you make your comment because you can't do this otherwise why would you say it?

Just because you can't do it safely doesn't mean that others can't.

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#19 24-02-11 10:52:54

ijmoore
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
Website

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

2 sec rule is not enough anyway


Fleet Training
Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#20 24-02-11 11:19:19

metalmicky
Verified Member
From: Chesterfield
Registered: 10-01-11
Posts: 802
Website

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

jonsmithuk wrote:

As for anyone suggesting looking over the shoulder at high speed , go look for your marbles, coz you have obviously lost them.

As I would also suggest that looking over my shoulder at speeds well in excess of 70mph is a good thing. I also presume you make your comment because you can't do this otherwise why would you say it?

Just because you can't do it safely doesn't mean that others can't.

Speeds well in excess of 70mph?  Obviously not driving on British roads then. 
If you are using and checking your mirrors effectively you should be fully aware of what is behind you, how close they are, and how fast they are approaching.  If you are in possession of this information you will not gain any more information from a blind spot check unless you are moving out either into their path UNSAFELY or on a motorway, moving from lane 1 into lane 2 at the same time as they are moving from lane 3 into lane 2 etc.  Correct planning and awareness in your driving would take account of this and perhaps alter your timing of lane change. 


Just because I'm a driving instructor, it doesn't make me a dual control freak. 
www.way-ahead-driving.co.uk

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#21 24-02-11 11:29:10

ratty
Member
Registered: 05-02-11
Posts: 466

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

Funnily enough it was on British roads and it was legal.

There are a number of 'ifs' in your post and it is correct that if everything is as you describe and if you are 100% sure you have not missed something then the extra check may not be necessary. However I accept that I sometimes make mistakes and I like to do the final check just in case.

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#22 24-02-11 11:34:36

metalmicky
Verified Member
From: Chesterfield
Registered: 10-01-11
Posts: 802
Website

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

Only 2 'if's' lol.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying it should never be done, but that when a person is driving scent and correctly it is not always essential. 

Personally it something I tend to do more often than not and also teach my pupils to do, as long as safety ahead is not compromised in any way, shape or form.  I was pulled by SE on a check test for while conducting a motorway lesson a few years ago.  So I have since reviewed how I teach it as well. 


Just because I'm a driving instructor, it doesn't make me a dual control freak. 
www.way-ahead-driving.co.uk

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#23 27-02-11 20:26:57

Graham Hooper
Verified Member
From: Ashford Kent
Registered: 12-02-06
Posts: 223
Website

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

Is an SE always right?


www.1st-4.org
www.tri-coachingpartnership.co.uk
Part 3 Rescue a speciality, Fleet/Learner check test, Coaching courses, Advanced driving SAFED, ADI-CPD or if just want some advice.

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#24 27-02-11 20:45:50

metalmicky
Verified Member
From: Chesterfield
Registered: 10-01-11
Posts: 802
Website

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

No, but on test their decision is final irrespective of whether it is right or wrong and they are only there a an observer, not to "supervise" a provisional licence holder.


Just because I'm a driving instructor, it doesn't make me a dual control freak. 
www.way-ahead-driving.co.uk

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#25 27-02-11 21:08:33

Graham Hooper
Verified Member
From: Ashford Kent
Registered: 12-02-06
Posts: 223
Website

Re: maybe I am being too analytical but....

The blindspot check on the move depends on your environment and your continueing use of mirrors. On some D/C's and Mways where it is heavily congested using your peripheral vision can be extemely helpful. I would suggest that a blindspot check on the move will depend on speed and traffic conditions. I know tomorrow when I am on the M25 in rush hour there will be times when I will check the blindspot and other times I will have a quick sideways glance and then there may be occasions when I don't need to check.


www.1st-4.org
www.tri-coachingpartnership.co.uk
Part 3 Rescue a speciality, Fleet/Learner check test, Coaching courses, Advanced driving SAFED, ADI-CPD or if just want some advice.

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