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#1 08-12-10 12:08:37

Target
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From: Winchmore Hill North London
Registered: 17-01-05
Posts: 5,695
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I thought during ID they drove independently

I'm just really venting some anger here. Really Peed off today!

Pupil was given instructions to follow signs. Naturally when you are a little unsure of where you are going you tend to drive a little slower. She was looking for the signs, not driving excessively slow but when you dont know the area you tend to be more cautioues, or would the DSA like us to cover test routes all day long.

She then proceeded to change lanes to follow the correct route, the road ahead was now blocked by other cars and the lane to her right had fast moving traffic.

She waited and changed lanes safely.

Got a serious fault for appropriate speed.

Im bleep off beyond belief....The ex at the end said ' Sorry you have failed would you like me to tell you why?' I nearly said to the guy.....YES PLEASE TELL ME WHY WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THAT?


Whats the point of ID if they are not allowed to make their own assessments and judgements.


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08-12-10 12:08:37

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Re: I thought during ID they drove independently




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#2 08-12-10 13:56:14

Carlo
Verified Member
From: North London
Registered: 03-07-05
Posts: 802

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

If this test was taken at Barnet, that result doesn't supprise me one bit sad.

They have become so picky that I feel that unless your pupil is driving at part 2 standard, it just isn't going to happen.


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#3 08-12-10 15:34:42

VandADI
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From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,592

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

I think the honeymoon period is over for ID, let the nit picking commence.  roll

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#4 08-12-10 19:21:57

Target
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From: Winchmore Hill North London
Registered: 17-01-05
Posts: 5,695
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Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

Carlo.....It was not Barnet....I had a 1 DF at Barnet on Tuesday for a lady leaving the country soon and wanted to pass before the 23rd Dec....It was her first attempt.....Was i worried :?

This was Mill Hill.....The ex said something to me at the start which did'nt bother me until afterwards. Now its got me asking more questions.

This is the clients second attempt. 5 DF 1 S this time 6 DF and 1 S......The DF's are those that you dont even think about....Lanes, odd mirror missed, late blindspot check just after moving on manoeveres. The drive was not even sailing close to the wind, it was good, it was safe.

The Serious was marked at the end, not during.

Honest. She has done everything I taught her....Follow the signs and make decisions safely, if its not safe then abort the manoeveres, ie go a different way.

Surely you cannot expect a nervous pupil to be able to hit the top speeds knowing they will need to change direction at sometime.

She reached 48 on a NSL (70)........Id agree she was a little under the pace, but only due to finding the signs.

A later is going off to TW......It will at least make me feel better, and if we dont let someone know then it may not get changed.

Ive not felt like this in over a 1/2 years.


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#5 09-12-10 08:48:07

Hilary Hughes
Verified Member
From: Stockport, Manchester
Registered: 25-06-04
Posts: 1,232
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Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

Hi Target - although I don't know the centre or examiners in question - nor was I there at the time, ( obviously ) - I can say that when a candidate gets to the six on minors, you can expect them to be sailing close to the wind ( at may test centres, anyway ) and heading for a fail.

I aim for perfection before putting them in. I always tell the candidate that a DF can easily become a SF dependent on the circumstances. If if was me, I'd be making the pupil think about their own performance in those terms.

Hilary.


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#6 09-12-10 18:53:08

kaf
Verified Member
From: Wiltshire
Registered: 05-08-07
Posts: 3,328
Website

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

Staggering, I tell all my customers, if you are in unfamiliar territory and unsure of the road ahead, slow down, give yourself more time to work out what you need to do.

Target is quite right, if they are going to mark a SF for doing this, then they leave us no option but to teach test routes.

What would THEY do in the real world, slow down to pick up the signs or blunder on regardless, common-sense bypass seems to have taken place here.

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#7 09-12-10 18:58:32

Hilary Hughes
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From: Stockport, Manchester
Registered: 25-06-04
Posts: 1,232
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Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

I think it depends on how much someone has to slow down. Has anyone else honestly had a problem with this? Perhaps we're stricter here  but at 20mph under, I wouldn't expect anything but a fail, but good luck with the letter. I'd like to know the outcome.

Hilary.


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#8 09-12-10 22:32:47

Target
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From: Winchmore Hill North London
Registered: 17-01-05
Posts: 5,695
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Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

Hilary....6DFs is very good for me....Most mine pass comfortable on 10/12 Df's and ive never had a problem with that.

Ive actaully used the same route a few times with pupils today. All got upto speed at around the same speed near 50mph on a NSL dual carriageway. All were making progress in my opinion.

Let me explain a little more.

Coming off a roundsbout the road streches for around 1 mile before dropping to a 50mph. Its a 3 lane dual then you reach traffic lights then you reach a large roundabout. Those that know the area its from Stirling Corner to Apex Corner ( carlo will know ). About 200 yards from the traffic lights the 'Get in Lane' sign is showing. The ex did give some further instructions here, but I could tell the pupil was still in ID mode and looking for themselves.

At the traffic lights a que of traffic was developing, this is why the pupil slowed further as they were running out of room to change lanes. We all know how drivers race upto traffic lights. She slowed to i think 28 mph in the left lane before changing. As mentioned the serious was for appropriate speed.


Im not looking for a refund, i will write to Trevor and explain my feelings. The test needs to be fair and if I, and the pupil feel hard done by you just cannot make this stuff up.

I did get the feeling it was being marked on Part 2 basis.


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#9 10-12-10 07:42:20

Peter_Cary
Verified Member
Registered: 08-04-06
Posts: 1,193
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Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

Hi Keith,

Not at all familiar with the area, but looking on Google Maps

I take it your pupil entered the A1 either from the South East

Click here

or North West

Click here

And told to follow signs for Edgeware and/or Mill Hill

Along the way passing after about three quarters of mile...
Tourist Area
Moat Mount Open Space Click here

Warned of roundabout half a mile ahead Click here

Approaching 50 m.p.h zone Click here

Followed almost immediately by a very minor junction probably off to a business premises Clck here

Then a clearly signed "No left turn" Click here

Clear sign showing Edgeware needs the centre lane Click here

Warning of traffic lights 380 yards ahead Click here

Then a large sign showing that left turning traffic had its own lane on the roundabout Click here

Re-enforced by road markings Click here

Yet another large road sign showing again the separate left lane on the roundabout Click here

Road markings again on the approach to the traffic lights Click here

The far side of the traffic lights showing clearly marked lanes and hatch markings separating the left lane off for the roundabout Click here

I appreciate Google photos can be out of date and with more traffic road markings can easily be hidden, but speaking personally here I wish some of our routes were so clearly signed as it would appear this bit of the A1 is and would certainly have expected my clients to have reached 70 m.p.h if safe to do so on the early stage of the route where there appears to be no turnings at all, with the greatest of respect, if your client left it until the traffic lights to select the second lane to head towards Edgeware I would have marked her down for road markings and signs.

I know far too well that pupils can apparently leave their brains behind when on test and it could well be that she was struggling to remember where she should have been heading causing the brain to go into panic mode.

I find getting my clients to note the destination down on a "Post It" note on the dash board in this case looking at the road markings I would advise my clients to use

EDG eware possibly with the addition of (local) even though the first sign at the roundabout shows it as a Primary Route destination (a "problem" for some clients The DSA appear to have not considered)if the examiner can give that information and thus she would be able to disregard almost all the signs along the route (unfortunately my experience is that few examiners have actually noted the fact so are unable to help with this question) but she could check with a quick glance that she was on the correct route

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#10 10-12-10 09:23:03

Hilary Hughes
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From: Stockport, Manchester
Registered: 25-06-04
Posts: 1,232
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Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

Keith,

If you're still not happy about it, why not have a chat with the CDE or your DTAM about it? He ( or she ) would usually be your first port of call.

Hilary.


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#11 10-12-10 16:59:27

Target
Verified Member
From: Winchmore Hill North London
Registered: 17-01-05
Posts: 5,695
Website

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

Peter....You have given a good account of the route.

You actually made me laugh, because in on some forums and possibly even here they would expect a pupil to do all that in under 30 hours tuition. big_smile

I have no qualms over her not getting the speed up. I agree she was a little under the pace of the flowing traffic, but when you dont know an area and are instructed to follow the signs to Edgware you are natually a little nervous about where you are going.

Perhaps she should have been looking so far ahead that she realised there was nowhere to go other than right down to the end of the road and start looking for the signs.

Ive driven this road, and when the 'Get in Lane' is fully visable you are not left much time to position. If you dont know the area!

Hills.....Im not going to question the test. i'm looking for a new test asap and hopefully i will get one before Christmas for this lady as I personally feel she was hard done by.

I will write to TW but more about the nature of ID and letting pupils decide for themselves. The DSA cannot have it both ways.......Let them drive safely. dont penalise them for not knowing the areas and doing it for themselves.


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#12 10-12-10 20:24:17

Carlo
Verified Member
From: North London
Registered: 03-07-05
Posts: 802

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

I know the road very well Target.  Sounds like your pupil was robbed sad.  However, the result doesn't surprise me.


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#13 11-12-10 12:18:05

looprevil
Verified Member
Registered: 17-03-08
Posts: 424

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

The solution when driving in area you are unfamiliar is to plan earlier. That may mean adjusting your speed but that is not always the case.

There is a significant difference between a driver that is unfamiliar with an area and plans earlier to account for it to someone who is not making sufficient progress for the road and traffic conditions and is struggling to plan earlier.

This is where training in areas where they may be taken on a test can help because the driver can retain long term memory of things that are unlikely to change in those areas (street signs, furniture, road layout etc). This allows their brain to focus on managing the space more effectively as the long term memory is recalled.

The other training solution is to ensure that clients have developed sufficient planning skills so that unfamiliar areas should not present such difficulty. If a candidate on test struggles to cope with everything being asked of them I would be wondering if they were ready.

If the road and traffic conditions allowed you to drive at 70mph and a candidate on test drove at 48mph because they wanted to look for signs they have demonstrated a lack of planning development that needs help before another test.

Consider how you would drive yourself in an unfamiliar area, where there is more complexity to manage in an area I would be scanning much more and planning much earlier and then adjusting my speed to suit my plan rather than simply going slower first and then planning. Shouldn't clients be doing the same?

I often hear fellow colleagues say "if you're not sure go slower," in my view what should be said is "if you're unsure look and plan earlier then choose a speed that suits your plan."

regards

Paddy


smile  big_smile  lol  cool

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#14 26-12-10 17:52:35

Barry500
Member
From: Ipswich, Kesgrave, Woodbridge.
Registered: 27-11-10
Posts: 491
Website

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

I passed part 2 and 3 at Barnet. (ADI)

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#15 30-12-10 19:55:27

mspl
Member
Registered: 30-09-09
Posts: 207

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

Hi Target - although I don't know the centre or examiners in question - nor was I there at the time, ( obviously ) - I can say that when a candidate gets to the six on minors, you can expect them to be sailing close to the wind ( at may test centres, anyway ) and heading for a fail.

I aim for perfection before putting them in. I always tell the candidate that a DF can easily become a SF dependent on the circumstances. If if was me, I'd be making the pupil think about their own performance in those terms.

Hilary.

So at your test centre they are only allowed 6 df's as opposed to the normal 15 at other test centre's.
I have had many pupils pass with more than 6 df's,am I missing something?

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#16 31-12-10 10:17:55

Hilary Hughes
Verified Member
From: Stockport, Manchester
Registered: 25-06-04
Posts: 1,232
Website

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

Hilary Hughes wrote:

Hi Target - although I don't know the centre or examiners in question - nor was I there at the time, ( obviously ) - I can say that when a candidate gets to the six on minors, you can expect them to be sailing close to the wind ( at may test centres, anyway ) and heading for a fail.

I aim for perfection before putting them in. I always tell the candidate that a DF can easily become a SF dependent on the circumstances. If if was me, I'd be making the pupil think about their own performance in those terms.

Hilary.

So at your test centre they are only allowed 6 df's as opposed to the normal 15 at other test centre's.
I have had many pupils pass with more than 6 df's,am I missing something?

No, I am merely saying that more than six usually means that they are likely to commit a serious. I heard someone else say once that they reckoned more than eight was nearer to the mark. Obviously, this isn't always the case and I, too, have had passes with more driver faults than that. Just the way it seems to pan out in the end, that's all.
Hilary.


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#17 31-12-10 10:39:14

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

I agree. There would be the likelihood of committing the same fault more than once. They won't allow the same fault fifteen times!

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#18 31-12-10 19:01:25

mspl
Member
Registered: 30-09-09
Posts: 207

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

I agree. There would be the likelihood of committing the same fault more than once. They won't allow the same fault fifteen times!

Thanks for that Aspyre didn't realise you couldn't commit the same fault 15 times,seems like there's plenty of room in the box
to mark it though.

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#19 03-01-11 16:55:43

dcbedford
Verified Member
From: Wakefield, West Yorks.
Registered: 01-08-06
Posts: 142

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

Hi MSPL

The examiners at the test centres that I use usually let a pupil commit the same fault 3 times without a problem.
If the same fault is then commited a 4th time they will then mark it as a serious fault as it is classed as an unsafe "habit". Have only had just one pupil pass with 5 faults for the same thing and the examiner commented that it was very close to a fail in the debrief but he let it go as the rest of the drive was very good.
I teach round the Wakefield & Leeds areas.

Dave Bedford


Part 1 - Second attempt - Passed 7/9/06 98/61
Part 2 - First attempt 1/12/06- Failed 8 minors
Part 2 - Second attempt 5/12/06 - Failed different 8 minors
Part 2 - Third attempt 11/1/07 - Passed 4 minors
Part 3 - First Attempt - 7/8/07 - PST 1 5/3
Part 3 - Second Attempt - 11/9/07 - PST 7 2/3
Part 3 - Third Attempt - 25/3/08 - PST 3 5/4 Passed at Last
First Check Test - 2/9/09 - Grade 4

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#20 03-01-11 19:09:59

Barry500
Member
From: Ipswich, Kesgrave, Woodbridge.
Registered: 27-11-10
Posts: 491
Website

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

Count yourself lucky then, normally in my experience three times with the same fault and it's a fail.

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#21 03-01-11 23:25:16

email@passwithjohn.co.uk
Verified Member
From: Macclesfield
Registered: 15-02-08
Posts: 26
Website

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

I think i this case one of the important things of this test is the speed been around 20mph below the speed limit sounds to me she was driving for the road ahead in stead driving to the road ahead,
I'm in the Macclesfield Cheshire we have a dual carrageway called The Silk Road only 2 lanes speed of the road is 70 in one part between two round abouts 1 mile apart at each end the speed before the roundabouts is down to 30 subject to the flow of the road i ask them to drive at least 60 i'v never lost a test in 6 years using Macclesfiled test centre, plus you say that the examiner did try to help her on approach ??


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#22 04-01-11 22:13:13

absadi
Verified Member
Registered: 25-05-10
Posts: 71
Website

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

I think the honeymoon period is over for ID, let the nit picking commence.  roll

I Like that VandADI, so yes I think you are right

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#23 06-01-11 12:56:45

Target
Verified Member
From: Winchmore Hill North London
Registered: 17-01-05
Posts: 5,695
Website

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

Well, thanks for all the replies.

My point was initially as stated that I think ID needs to be INDEPENDENT. I'm sure most of us have controlled situations in MANY different ways we feel needed, but you would not expect to fail a driving test over this.

Thankfully the pupil passed today. We did have a test booked before Christmas but this was cancelled due to the snow.

I managed to get in a few lessons just to keep the momentum going and re-booked.

So first test this year and 3 DF's.

I have not written to Trevor, but in all honestly I probably will just not find the time at the moment.


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#24 19-01-11 22:26:34

metalmicky
Verified Member
From: Chesterfield
Registered: 10-01-11
Posts: 802
Website

Re: I thought during ID they drove independently

The problem was, from what you say WAITING, blocking a lane, interfering with the flow of traffic in the lane she was in.  She should have proceeded in the lane she was in and 'followed the road markings / sign' for the lane she was in.  Remember, follow the road ahead, UNLESS DIRECTED OTHERWISE BY SIGNS OR ROAD MARKINGS.  If you cannot get in lane, keep going in the lane you are already in.  THERE IS NO FAULT in taking a wrong turning or not following an instruction as long as your MSPSL routine is correct for what you do.  The DE would then re-route back to the junction to continue the ID.  Possible DF for signalling or awareness and planning, but not serious.  CAUSE AND EFFECT.  The effect is usually the fault, the impact on other traffic.  Your pupils assesment and judgement and decision was not the best course of action in this case.


"She waited and changed lanes safely.

Got a serious fault for appropriate speed.

Im bleep off beyond belief....The ex at the end said ' Sorry you have failed would you like me to tell you why?' I nearly said to the guy.....YES PLEASE TELL ME WHY WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THAT?


Whats the point of ID if they are not allowed to make their own assessments and judgements."
[/quote]


Just because I'm a driving instructor, it doesn't make me a dual control freak. 
www.way-ahead-driving.co.uk

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