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#1 31-10-10 09:26:15

paulcook
Verified Member
From: Edinburgh
Registered: 13-05-08
Posts: 130
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Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

I'm putting the finishing touches to my drive in prep for the DIAmond Special Test.  I'm relying on the knowledge and advice of my Grade 6 trainer, who points out certain details for improvement.  Like giving me the "clock system" at roundabouts, and telling me not to signal when returning back to the left lane after over-taking etc. 

But here's the thing.... I can't then go and double check the validity of this feedback in any of the DSA publications.  This is because, at advanced level, the DSA publications are of very limited use. They don't cover scenarios -  in fact, the Essential Skills must have a sore backside from sitting on the fence all the time.

So who makes up the rights and wrongs, at advanced level?  Is it the general population of advanced drivers?  Or is there a "book of detailed scenarios" out there?  As someone who would like to become a Trainer of Part 2 and Advanced Driving, I'm looking to rely on more than one guy's verbal advice.

Any thoughts welcome.


Paul Cook, ADI, Grade 5, DIAmond Special Test

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31-10-10 09:26:15

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Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?



#2 31-10-10 09:40:06

(ROG)
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From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

I could easily help you on roadcraft style advanced driving but I believe the style you are going for is DSA style based.


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#3 31-10-10 10:20:27

Freedom Phil
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From: Sunderland, North East UK
Registered: 31-03-09
Posts: 342
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Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

Hi Paul,

The difficult thing with driving is that there is no black and white right and wrong, you have to look at each individual situation separately, and work out what's best at that time.

Something to take into consideration, which most people forget when talking about advanced driving, is that by improving your skill and becoming an advanced driver, you are in the minority, and if your going to use your advanced driving skill, you have to think how your actions affect other road users, the majority of whom have no advanced training. 

I've been really lucky recently as I have had a driving lesson from an ex class 1 police driver, and I have had a police driving instructor do a demonstration drive in my car (50mph round tight bends on a country road with wet conditions, in 2nd gear in 1.3 petrol yaris, under full control !!  fascinating to watch!!).  What they suggest I do when driving advanced or RoSPA style, I would never do when driving DSA style. 

As the DIA use the DSA system when driving, I would suggest you need a  signal when returning back to the left after overtaking on dual carriageways and motorways - I did when I took the DIA advanced and special tests, and Cardington special test, and the examiners made no comments or marks against me for doing so.  My argument would be what if the car you just overtook was speeding up to race you or planning to undertake?  Both things that you as an advanced driver would never do, but both things we all see the majority of drivers doing.  The only way you can let then know you are moving back to the left is with a signal - they wont think to look at the position of your car to see if your moving closer to the left ect.

Both the police drivers told me that when it comes to signals, it's better to give too many than not enough.  I think that's good advice.

I think the general public are experienced drivers, but not advanced drivers - I'm sure as an instructor that when your driving about you see more examples of bad driving than good driving...... how many people see the learner sign on the car and are determined to overtake or cut in because it's a learner - even when the instructor is driving!

I recently did a fleet check test and was given such a @?#* by the 'advanced' examiner because he overtook on a dual carriageway, signalled to move back in, but did not check left blind spot.  His argument was that nothing should have been there so he was ok to keep watching in the left mirror and didnt need to check blind spot. I completely disagree, and no matter what anyone says I will disagree.  He said it was unsafe while travelling at 70mph  to check the blind spot.  his opinion as a so called advanced driver and senior examiner (and complete c*ock) is  that is is safer, while travelling at 70mph to stare in the left mirror so you know when to move back in.   I pointed out the left mirror has a curved glass making things appear further away and also has a blind spot in it alongside the car, and that my method of watching the road ahead, checking inside mirror to make sure you are passed the car, watching road ahead, doing mirror, signal, blindspot (which is chin to shoulder so you will still have perifiral (grr duno how to spell that) vision and so be aware of what's ahead, then moving back is a safer way of doing it.  he disagreed.  He said thats what advanced drivers should do and how I should teach it, but that I should never teach it to learners - which is also ridiculous! 

For me personally, I think we need to have a way of driving that works for everybody and everybody can understand and follow - its no good teaching learners 1 thing and other drivers something else because then we have 2 systems which is confusing.  the majority of drivers will not take any advanced driver training.  they may gain experience but that makes them experienced drivers rather than advanced drivers. 

Hmmmm I'm going to stop my rant there as I'm not sure how helpful my post is to you  neutral

But on 8th November I'm going on a training course to become a DIA examiner, so I'll ask and let you know the trainers opinion on signalling when moving back  smile 

no doubt lots of people will agree and disagree with what I say, and different DIA examiners will give diferent answers.

good luck with your test, and well done on trying to improve yourself

.phil.
:angel:


DIA diploma in driving instruction.  DSA registered fleet trainer.  ORDIT registered trainer part's 1, 2, 3 & ORDIT premises inspected.  SAFED trainer and assessor.  RoSPA approved tutor.  Diamond registered advanced instructor.  Diamond qualified advanced examiner. City & Guilds 7303 PTLLS teaching certificate.  IAM advanced test, Diamond advanced test, Diamond special test, Cardington special test, RoSPA gold

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#4 31-10-10 10:47:47

on board training
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Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

Hi,

I have only taught one system since coming into this industry in 2002 and that same system if taught properly is as applicable to DSA or Roadcraft based driving. (M, S, P, S, G - L, A, D, A with the LADA coming in from first recognition of actual or potential hazard) Do this in the car properly, even commentate it, and it looks and sounds no different for either testing regime.

For those of you who have read the new Driving Standards Document the following quote shows what it does make reference to 'N.B This Standard makes frequent reference to the use of a ‘safe, systematic routine’ . In all cases this should be taken to mean the use of routines such as Observation – Signal – Manoeuvre – Position – Speed – Look or Information – Position – Speed – Gear – Acceleration.

So again an inference if you want to take it that there is really only one system especially if the words you use for that system covers all the elements and keeps the user safe.

Brian

#5 31-10-10 12:03:54

driverpete
Verified Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 06-02-06
Posts: 457

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

The essence of advanced driving (and this is only my opinion) is that you are constantly assessing and reassessing the situation and modifying your drive and your decisions accordingly. On the question of "To signal or not when returning to lane 1" my answer would be "It all depends"; if, after the overtake, I can see that I am rapidly pulling ahead of the vehicle I've just passed and there's nobody else immediately behind me then I wouldn't usually signal to pull back in; if I'm in any doubt as to whether he might be speeding up or there's someone close behind me then I probably would signal. Having said that, each situation is different and I might not do either of the above if I considered some other action might be more appropriate.


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Retired RoSPA Approved Tutor
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#6 31-10-10 13:39:13

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

In my opinion when a signal is required it is based on the Information phase and part of this will be based on whether there is someone close enough to benefit from one.  I was also taught to signal only when it is absouloutely necessary,however unlike learners an advanced driver will/should always be assessing the road environment.

So,I suppose the answer to the OPs  question about signals when moving back to the nearside would be based on what is correct at that time for that particular hazard,as we all know that we all see different information from each other therefore our driving plan will hopefully be based around the information at that time.
Stephen     

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#7 31-10-10 13:57:55

johnnyfr
Verified Member
Registered: 06-01-07
Posts: 228
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Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

So who makes up the rights and wrongs, at advanced level?  Is it the general population of advanced drivers?  Or is there a "book of detailed scenarios" out there?  As someone who would like to become a Trainer of Part 2 and Advanced Driving, I'm looking to rely on more than one guy's verbal advice.

Any thoughts welcome.

Unfortunately, there is no book of rules that covers all possible scenarios - if there was, it would be much longer than the Encyclopedia Britannica!!!

In my opinion, as long as you can justify your actions to yourself, you are half way there already.

You and I may do different things on our Rospa tests, for example, but come out with the same result.


DSA ADI (car) -- DSA Fleet Driver Trainer [URL=http://www.prontopass.co.uk/grade6adi.php]Grade 6[/URL] -- ORDIT Registered Trainer
Level 4 PTLLS, Rospa Gold, NVQ Level 3 Driving Instruction, A1 Assessors Award, [URL=http://www.brake.org.uk]Brake[/URL] Road Safety Ambassador, DIA Taxi Trainer.
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#8 31-10-10 23:21:13

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

I've been really lucky recently as I have had a driving lesson from an ex class 1 police driver, and I have had a police driving instructor do a demonstration drive in my car (50mph round tight bends on a country road with wet conditions, in 2nd gear in 1.3 petrol yaris, under full control !!  fascinating to watch!!).  What they suggest I do when driving advanced or RoSPA style, I would never do when driving DSA style.

It's great isn't it  big_smile

I recently did a fleet check test and was given such a @?#* by the 'advanced' examiner because he overtook on a dual carriageway, signalled to move back in, but did not check left blind spot.  His argument was that nothing should have been there so he was ok to keep watching in the left mirror and didnt need to check blind spot. I completely disagree, and no matter what anyone says I will disagree.  He said it was unsafe while travelling at 70mph  to check the blind spot.  his opinion as a so called advanced driver and senior examiner (and complete c*ock) is  that is is safer, while travelling at 70mph to stare in the left mirror so you know when to move back in.

Really?  Don't motorcyclists do them at speed (?"lifesaver" checks?) And there was I thinking just this evening whilst travelling on the M25 that I was glad I taught my learners to do left and right shoulder checks before changing lanes.   I may not agree that they ALWAYS need to be done (eg I AM the only one in sight) but in a multi-laner with traffic changing lanes all around you constantly.  Yes Please.  I'll do them.

He said thats what advanced drivers should do and how I should teach it, but that I should never teach it to learners - which is also ridiculous!

What??   :? How come I see, when necessary, DEs check both shoulders on tests then????  I've never been knocked back for teaching learners in fact I am sure some of the DE's are grateful it's done.  And on some of the roundabouts we do on test you'd be potentially in trouble if you didn't do this.  OK obviously we are not at 70 mph on roundabouts but more than once they've been crash-savers whilst someone sits in that teeny place that IS the blindspot!!!

For me personally, I think we need to have a way of driving that works for everybody and everybody can understand and follow - its no good teaching learners 1 thing and other drivers something else because then we have 2 systems which is confusing.  the majority of drivers will not take any advanced driver training.  they may gain experience but that makes them experienced drivers rather than advanced drivers.

Agree 90% but there are some things I wouldn't teach a learner eg some positioning methods as I do believe they need experience first and enough advanced level training to make them 100% safe here.

Hmmmm I'm going to stop my rant there as I'm not sure how helpful my post is to you  neutral

And I'm sorry too Paul as my response to Phil is of no help to you either.    roll

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#9 31-10-10 23:46:29

Freedom Phil
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From: Sunderland, North East UK
Registered: 31-03-09
Posts: 342
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Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

Hi Lynne,

Thanks for the reply... I am *slightly* peed off at the examiner in question, but I think he'd made up his mind about me before he'd even met me  :x

.phil.
:angel:


DIA diploma in driving instruction.  DSA registered fleet trainer.  ORDIT registered trainer part's 1, 2, 3 & ORDIT premises inspected.  SAFED trainer and assessor.  RoSPA approved tutor.  Diamond registered advanced instructor.  Diamond qualified advanced examiner. City & Guilds 7303 PTLLS teaching certificate.  IAM advanced test, Diamond advanced test, Diamond special test, Cardington special test, RoSPA gold

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#10 04-11-10 13:09:59

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

Ask yourself a question before you use the signal, Who's it for? If you feel it's of benefit or there's doubt use them, if your happy no one is there including pedestrians then dont!

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#11 04-11-10 14:00:34

ijmoore
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
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Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

It took me a long time to realise this, but it helped me. Learn msm/dsa techique. Then learn ipsga/roadcraft techique and practice both. They are very similar. Learn how to eco drive, and learn to drive it 'like you stole it'.

When you can demonstrate these bang on, decide as per the driving situation which is the MOST APPROPRiATE in your own opinion at that particular time. 

If you can justify why you have driven in a particular manner at a particular time, who can say what is right or wrong. There are more than one way to skin a cat.

One thin which helped me is to assess your driving by the following terms.

Was your drive SAFE, did you use a SYSTEM? Was the drive.SMOOTH? Was the car STABLE?


Fleet Training
Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#12 07-11-10 00:05:29

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
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Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

Hi Paul
If your really driving at an advanced level, these decisions would be based entirely on the situation at the time and  safety and not on any examiners view.
There are no rules on signalling in any system, go with your own feelings at the time for safety, same withth clock system there is no such thing!


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#13 07-11-10 09:43:44

ijmoore
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From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
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Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

I agree Nigel.  The clock system is a good guide, but I would accept any safe appraoch and exit to a roundabout so long as it was justified and within the realms of the highway code.  Certainly wouldn't try to impress any examiner, they'd see right through that anyway!


Fleet Training
Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#14 07-11-10 21:20:24

m6northtoheaven
Verified Member
Registered: 04-01-09
Posts: 581

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

Hi Freedom phil,

With regards to your police man friend, why would you be doing 50mph around tight bends in wet conditions in 2nd gear.

Is this learner stuff, advanced stuff or just stupid!!!!!!!!!

M6


The inclanation of the optic is as adequate as a twitch of the cranium like a quadraped divoid of its visionary capacity!

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#15 07-11-10 23:28:46

Freedom Phil
Verified Member
From: Sunderland, North East UK
Registered: 31-03-09
Posts: 342
Website

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

this was way beyond anything advanced that I have seen, was fascinating to watch - he was safe and had full control at all times, definitely not stupid, at no point did I feel unsafe, he had total control over the car

I wouldn't do what he did because I cant, but he can and did!

.phil.


DIA diploma in driving instruction.  DSA registered fleet trainer.  ORDIT registered trainer part's 1, 2, 3 & ORDIT premises inspected.  SAFED trainer and assessor.  RoSPA approved tutor.  Diamond registered advanced instructor.  Diamond qualified advanced examiner. City & Guilds 7303 PTLLS teaching certificate.  IAM advanced test, Diamond advanced test, Diamond special test, Cardington special test, RoSPA gold

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#16 09-11-10 15:53:41

Coasting Mart
Verified Member
Registered: 11-06-09
Posts: 967

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

I'm always amazed at how much emphasis there is on speed/progress - presumably because of the police roots.  Quite ironic that the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents is associated with something that appears to involve a lot of rushing about!    roll   If you're not chasing a gang of armed murders, why should anyone be encouraged to take higher risks with their speed?

Doing high speed in the twisties is fine depending on the level of risk you're prepared to take.  Obviously wasn't there, but I would always question whether this demo of high speed is actually "safe".  Could he really have stopped if he'd met a tractor coming out of a field round the corner?  People often delude themselves about actually how long it takes to stop.  A 'cautious' drive is often more 'advanced' than this constant urge to 'make progress'.

Police drivers DO get it wrong, and when they do, it's often significantly wrong.  http://tinyurl.com/27p28ct

I'm also amazed at how much &^%$%£%&* is talked in "advanced" driving!  I agree with Hector's post - it all depends and no 'system' has THE answer.  Driving is a fluid and every changing mental process where rigid rules aren't always of benefit.

'Advanced' for me is mostly about increased observations all the time and much greater mental processing skills based on those obs.  Sure there's maybe a few handling skills, but on normal roads is mostly seeing stuff early and pre-empting situations.  Slowing down is a great technique!  The most advanced thing we can all do, of course, is to get home safely at the end of each day!   8-)


"I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car"

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#17 09-11-10 20:10:51

driverpete
Verified Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 06-02-06
Posts: 457

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

Speed and progress are not necessarily the same thing. A driver who is concerned purely with speed will often find he has insufficient time to observe properly and will therefore be unable to correctly assess the conditions ahead resulting in frequent and unnecessary braking and stops at junctions and roundabouts. A driver who is focussing on making progress will be looking well ahead, making accurate assessments, anticipating outcomes and adjusting his speed accordingly and will in all probability arrive at his destination before the "speedy" driver. One of the exercises I employ when teaching advanced drivers is to see how far they can travel without using their brakes; it sharpens up the observation wonderfully!


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Retired RoSPA Approved Tutor
Retired NDAC & NDAS trainer
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#18 09-11-10 22:00:27

Coasting Mart
Verified Member
Registered: 11-06-09
Posts: 967

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

One of the exercises I employ when teaching advanced drivers is to see how far they can travel without using their brakes; it sharpens up the observation wonderfully!

Aye, I play "No Brakes" with my learners at times, although I prefer "No Stopping" as it encourages good braking skill.  Not an 'advanced' game as such.

I'm fully aware that speed and progress aren't the same, but one frequently hears of people reporting that they got marked down for not making enough progress.  There's also the usual tales of "doing 50 round the bends in 2nd", etc.  Whatever the reality of individual trainers, ROSPA and IAM do have a public perception issue that 'advanced' equals 'fast'.


"I swear I found the key to the universe in the engine of an old parked car"

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#19 09-11-10 22:59:31

ijmoore
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-10-06
Posts: 1,077
Website

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

Most drivers cannot do No brakes or No stopping so you are correct this is good excerice, one Gear is interesting too. For me smoothest is best!


Fleet Training
Iain Moore ADI Grade A, Fleet, RoSPA Tutor, DIAmond Ad, MSA National B Race License, EST Reg
fleet@learnmooredriving.co.uk 07999 992141

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#20 10-11-10 23:06:45

MFB
Verified Member
From: Lincoln
Registered: 23-10-08
Posts: 67

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

Sorry had to say something!
Having been an Advanced driver since '96 and IAM registered trainer for some years the idea of 50mph in 2nd gear in the wet in a corner is very inadvisable and frankly dangerous. There is no situation or frankly any road legal cars that would justify or need this scenario. The more you think about this the more ridiculous it becomes! It sounds more like a rally!
Ok tomorrow when I get the chance I will do 50mph in 2nd and see how it feels and sounds let alone go round a wet corner like it!
Mike

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#21 10-11-10 23:42:53

Freedom Phil
Verified Member
From: Sunderland, North East UK
Registered: 31-03-09
Posts: 342
Website

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

Hmmmmm

I was in the car, so I can make comment.  You wernt, so shut up!  tongue tongue tongue tongue

.phil.
:angel:


DIA diploma in driving instruction.  DSA registered fleet trainer.  ORDIT registered trainer part's 1, 2, 3 & ORDIT premises inspected.  SAFED trainer and assessor.  RoSPA approved tutor.  Diamond registered advanced instructor.  Diamond qualified advanced examiner. City & Guilds 7303 PTLLS teaching certificate.  IAM advanced test, Diamond advanced test, Diamond special test, Cardington special test, RoSPA gold

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#22 11-11-10 09:33:28

(ROG)
Verified Member
From: LEICESTER
Registered: 23-08-10
Posts: 1,551

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

The Ferrari I drove in 2007 would do 50 in 2nd easily and comfortably but not my SEAT Ibiza 1.4 petrol


IAM Observer
Leicester group of advanced motorists
LGV instructor from 2005 to 2008

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#23 12-11-10 20:37:04

Van Man
Verified Member
From: Burton upon Trent
Registered: 12-01-06
Posts: 78

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

A lot of interesting points raised smile .If any one is interested take a look at Chris Gilberts videos" Driving for tomorrow". I have them both and I find Chris's slant on this whole topic absolutely spot on


DON'T GET ME STARTED.
I'm not doing it wrong,Its just another way of doing it right!
IAM observer

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#24 13-11-10 08:16:57

driverpete
Verified Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 06-02-06
Posts: 457

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

I'm a big fan of Chris Gilbert and I'd recommend his videos to anyone (learner or advanced).


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Retired RoSPA Approved Tutor
Retired NDAC & NDAS trainer
Retired ADI

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#25 13-11-10 09:50:26

la.monikita
Verified Member
From: SE LONDON / KENT
Registered: 12-03-05
Posts: 3,064

Re: Who makes up the rights and wrongs in Advanced Driving?

and he has a new one out...


"What is necessary to change a person is to change his awareness of himself."
Abraham Maslow

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