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#1 05-10-10 19:51:35

apples69
Member
Registered: 05-09-09
Posts: 82

Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

I learnt the left corner reverse 2 weeks ago- been practising it every day, couple of questions

After you turn the steering wheel full lock turn to the left (when you can see the pavement in the corner back quarter window reference point), and then you turn the steering wheel 1.5 turns to the right just before the car straightens - sometimes my car is wide or the steering is not straight after the 1.5 turn to the right - am i allowed to adjust the steering in case the car is wide or not straight, after the 1.5 turn to the right to make the car straighten up or are you not allowed to adjust the steering once you start to straighten up after the 1.5 turn to the right?

are there any videos that you recommend to help with part 2?

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05-10-10 19:51:35

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Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?



#2 05-10-10 20:39:08

Freedom Phil
Verified Member
From: Sunderland, North East UK
Registered: 31-03-09
Posts: 342
Website

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

Well your options are:

a - use your method and end up wide/too close/hit kerb/at an angle

b - use your method then adjust steering to correct so you end in the position you want to be


What do you think is best?


Out of curiosity, do you think 1.5 turns will work on every corner?  Are all corners the same? 

.phil.
:angel:


DIA diploma in driving instruction.  DSA registered fleet trainer.  ORDIT registered trainer part's 1, 2, 3 & ORDIT premises inspected.  SAFED trainer and assessor.  RoSPA approved tutor.  Diamond registered advanced instructor.  Diamond qualified advanced examiner. City & Guilds 7303 PTLLS teaching certificate.  IAM advanced test, Diamond advanced test, Diamond special test, Cardington special test, RoSPA gold

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#3 05-10-10 20:58:13

boing boing
Verified Member
Registered: 21-09-10
Posts: 86
Website

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

apples .. I'm new to this forum, so don't know adam from eve.  Your not trolling are you?

Think about how you steer, simply, I mean really simply.  When you learned to ride a bike, did you always ride into trees and lamposts?  No of course not, now think why not.

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#4 05-10-10 21:02:36

Adi1234
Guest

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

It does Not matter how You hold the steering wheel when reversing on part two it does Not matter how much or little you turn It what matters is Your observation and keeping a reasonable distance from the kerb and keeping the car under control.


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#5 07-10-10 06:35:56

apples69
Member
Registered: 05-09-09
Posts: 82

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

h

Well your options are:

a - use your method and end up wide/too close/hit kerb/at an angle

b - use your method then adjust steering to correct so you end in the position you want to be


What do you think is best?


Out of curiosity, do you think 1.5 turns will work on every corner?  Are all corners the same? 

.phil.
:angel:

hi phil,

i've been taught this method by my instructor for a sharp corner reverse

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#6 07-10-10 06:37:17

apples69
Member
Registered: 05-09-09
Posts: 82

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

It does Not matter how You hold the steering wheel when reversing on part two it does Not matter how much or little you turn It what matters is Your observation and keeping a reasonable distance from the kerb and keeping the car under control.

what would the examiner expect a reasonable distance from the kerb to be when your reversing to straighten up after reverse?

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#7 07-10-10 08:07:50

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,592

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

Adi1234 wrote:

It does Not matter how You hold the steering wheel when reversing on part two it does Not matter how much or little you turn It what matters is Your observation and keeping a reasonable distance from the kerb and keeping the car under control.

what would the examiner expect a reasonable distance from the kerb to be when your reversing to straighten up after reverse?

The whole manoeuvre, from start to finish, should be approx a drains' width (about 18") from the kerb throughout the manoeuvre, however, I have sat in on test and it has been much wider than this and still it was a pass!

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#8 07-10-10 11:36:39

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

The typical criteria used to mark a learner are:

Control:

Poor co-ordination of controls
Stalling
Mounting the pavement or kerb
Turning the steering wheel the wrong way
Going wide after the corner
Finishing at an acute angle
Scrubbing-brushing-touching the kerb
Taking an excessive amount of time to complete the manoeuvre.

Observation:

No blind spot checks
No observation at or before the point of turn
Excessive use of the door mirrors
Not looking directly behind
Not reacting to passing or approaching vehicles
Not reacting to pedestrians
Waiting unnecessarily for other roads users

For Part 2 you need to at least be able to do it to satisfy those criteria. After all, reversing round a corner is the same thing whether you are a new driver or an PDI/ADI.

I do it the same as Vanda and advise a drain's width (or about half a metre) is ideal, but any more than say three quarters of a metre* and you're asking for possible trouble, and more than a metre then I'll never agree it is acceptable on a lesson. Back it up with "look where the kerb is" using mirrors and observations.

I hate it when my pupils ask "but how far out am I allowed to be?". I won't answer it directly and point out that once they can do it properly they won't have to worry about it.








* And so the Pedantry Police gather to criticise the mere mention of an actual distance

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#9 07-10-10 12:13:01

Roadmaster
Verified Member
Registered: 04-03-04
Posts: 5,670

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

'reasonable' in DSA language means 'it depends on the time of the month, according to the variance'.

Like Vanda, I've had people end up so far away they've needed a taxi to the kerb, and still pass, and on other occasions two feet away is a fail.  It's all down to the individual examiner.

I would agree  that about 18" should be acceptable.

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#10 07-10-10 20:27:15

apples69
Member
Registered: 05-09-09
Posts: 82

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

o.k, what is the correct procedure to stop the car going wide after the corner, i know for a sharp corner you turn the steering 1.5 turns when the corner appears in the reference point in the back quarter window but what if the corner is not sharp but wide, whats the procedure for a wide corner?

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#11 07-10-10 21:02:39

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

I'm beginning to agree with boing boing.

You use the steering wheel, Apples. You know..... to steer the car? And keep it the right distance away.

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#12 07-10-10 21:26:49

Freedom Phil
Verified Member
From: Sunderland, North East UK
Registered: 31-03-09
Posts: 342
Website

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

Hi apples,

The most difficult thing about becoming an instructor is that there is no RIGHT or WRONG way, no black and white, just lots of grey areas.......  What works for me and my pupils may not work for you and your pupils.  Petty, narrow minded instructors will stubbornly tell you their way is right and the only way, and look to prove you wrong to justify their pedantic narrow mindedness - that's why so many people here hold back rather than share their wealth of knowledge and experience for the benefit of us all!.

So what I would suggest you try (and it is only a suggestion) as it works for me and my pupils and so may work for you, is this:

Every time you do a left reverse, look at the corner and work out how much you would turn the wheel if you were to emerge from that corner, because it makes sense to me that the same amount of of turn will be necessary to drive forward round a corner, as well as reverse back around it.  This will give you some idea of how much you will have to turn the wheel.

I would suggest (for the pathetically pedantic it is only a suggestion and you can tell your pupils whatever you like, I'm not forcing my opinion or teachings upon you) that there are two types of corner - a tight/sharp/square corner that is basically a 90 degree angle, and then all the rest which have various angles. 

The square type corners are quite easy as they would *generally* require a full lock of the wheel, so you get to the point of turn, steer a full lock, and once round the corner take off the full lock to straighten the wheels and car.

For all other corners it is more difficult to determine how much turn of the wheel is needed.  I would suggest that as all these corners are different, you wont know exactly how much to turn the wheel until you actually do it.

The DSA guidelines for a left reverse say something like 'Ability to control the vehicle accurately whilst reversing to the left.  Effective all round observation throughout the manoeuvre showing consideration to other road users.'  depending upon which copy of the examiners guidelines you have, the wording may have changed slightly.

Others here have suggested a drains width away from the kerb as a start position, and that's generally what I teach too.  So if we keep that drains width all the way round and finish a drains width away, then it's been done accurately.

For *most* cars the point of turn will be when the rear wheels pass the first curved kerb stone.  You might see that by looking at the back seats, the rear wheel arch inside or outside the car or the rear door handle of a 5 door car.  that will depend upon your car and your hight and how much you can turn your head/neck. 

I would suggest that when you get to your point of turn, you turn the wheel whatever amount you think you need to turn it for that particular corner, and use your mirror as a guide for accuracy - if the gap between the kerb and car widens, you need to move towards the kerb to maintain an even gap, and if the gap between the car and kerb narrows you need to turn away from it to maintain an even gap.

Obviously you cant just stare in the mirror, that wouldn't be safe.  But if I look out the rear window, side window, nearside mirror, front windscreen, offside mirror (and possibly offside window depending upon where the car is), and then do the same observations in reverse order, I am taking good effective observations around the car throughout the manoeuvre, I'm fully aware of what is going on, and I am able to use the nearside mirror to be accurate, then I have fulfilled the examiners guidelines and been safe and accurate, and i get a pass and a gold star  :angel:

Remember if your going to teach this manoeuvre, you REALLY have to understand it.  The trick is finding a simple common sense method that you understand and can teach and will work for you or any driver in any car.... or alternatively get a couple of stickers in the rear and side window  yikes :? tongue :cry: :evil:  roll tongue

Hope that helps.

.phil.
:angel:

NB:
The opinions expressed above are mine only.  You do not have to change what you do.  You do not have to agree with me.  I am not suggesting your method is wrong.  I am not suggesting my method is right.  I am not suggesting this is the only way or correct way of doing it.  I am not suggesting I am any way better or superior to you.  If you cant find anything to blame Red/BSM/DSA for then please don't try to find fault in my suggestions as a way to satisfy your excessive sense of self worth.  If you don't like what I say, please don't bother to tell me about it because I really don't care.  When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the whole world will experience peace.  Don't follow the crowd, let the crowd follow you.


DIA diploma in driving instruction.  DSA registered fleet trainer.  ORDIT registered trainer part's 1, 2, 3 & ORDIT premises inspected.  SAFED trainer and assessor.  RoSPA approved tutor.  Diamond registered advanced instructor.  Diamond qualified advanced examiner. City & Guilds 7303 PTLLS teaching certificate.  IAM advanced test, Diamond advanced test, Diamond special test, Cardington special test, RoSPA gold

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#13 10-10-10 07:38:46

apples69
Member
Registered: 05-09-09
Posts: 82

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

i got my lesson today at 11am, will let you know how i get on today

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#14 10-10-10 08:58:57

Freedom Phil
Verified Member
From: Sunderland, North East UK
Registered: 31-03-09
Posts: 342
Website

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

:oops:

I just re-read what I wrote.... i was in an odd mode that night apparently   roll


Good luck with your lest reverse  big_smile

.phil.
:angel:


DIA diploma in driving instruction.  DSA registered fleet trainer.  ORDIT registered trainer part's 1, 2, 3 & ORDIT premises inspected.  SAFED trainer and assessor.  RoSPA approved tutor.  Diamond registered advanced instructor.  Diamond qualified advanced examiner. City & Guilds 7303 PTLLS teaching certificate.  IAM advanced test, Diamond advanced test, Diamond special test, Cardington special test, RoSPA gold

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#15 11-10-10 22:20:34

apples69
Member
Registered: 05-09-09
Posts: 82

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

Hi Phil,

Well I had my part 2 lesson yesterday morning, covered crossroads, awareness, anticipation and obersevation in the lesson, at the end of the lesson, I told my instructor that when i practice the corner left reverse on a sharp corner the car goes wide, i have sent you a pm

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#16 16-10-10 08:17:35

looprevil
Verified Member
Registered: 17-03-08
Posts: 424

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

Look at the junction you want to reverse into.

Imagine you are driving forward approaching and turning left at the end.

The left corner reverse requires the car to do the same thing going backwards.

Number of turns, references, distances from the kerb etc can often do little more than create confusion for the driver in my experience.

regards

Paddy


smile  big_smile  lol  cool

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#17 16-10-10 14:00:43

Adi1234
Guest

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

Try and do It with Out using any reference Points You may surprise Yourself.


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#18 16-10-10 15:14:31

SMILE
Verified Member
From: Northampton
Registered: 31-05-06
Posts: 280
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Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

the problem with reference points is unless you or your pupil are always going to reverse round the same corner in the same vehicle there will always be some differences.  I tend to use the 18" or drains width as a guide to distance from the kerb and then ask the pupils to keep it looking the same ie if it moves away steer towards, if it gets closer, steer away and if it looks ok - do nothing.  Seems to work for my guys smile


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Lessons in and around Northamptonshire

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#19 16-10-10 19:22:30

Aspyre
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Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

Everyone uses reference points one way or another - it's just that some take it to extremes... like using fixed amounts of steering as in the OP.

Just keeping the kerb "about the same distance" away involves some sort of reference, and for a rank beginner (not a PDI, one would hope) that might need a very specific description of precisely where the reference is until they get better at it. Even knowing when to start turning requires some sort of reference (otherwise you go into the kerb or end up wide at the outset).

Even for an expoerienced driver who "knows" where the car is in relation to the kerb, they are referencing the position somehow - they just don't have to think about it so hard.

I don't think there is any one perfect method.

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#20 16-10-10 20:47:12

Adi1234
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Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

I do Not use any reference Points at all. I use a thing called judgement. I also use that for when I need to stop at the end of the road and position the car correctly Reference points can be useful for people who struggle with judgement But in my experience I have found they are often more confusing than anything.

#21 16-10-10 21:53:14

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

Judgement requires reference points - it just requires you not to identify them.

When you know how far away from something you are, it is because you are referencing it with something else. Try doing it with your eyes shut, then you'll see the need to reference it with something lol

Don't forget that not all pupils are capable of the thing called "judgement" - not to start with, at least - and need a little help along the way. They just need that help delivering properly and not using little sticky dots and things.




(NOTE: I think people sometimes get "reference points" confused with "sticky dots" and such like. A reference point doesn't have to be a sticky dot. It is just how an individual relates to their immediate surroundings and so works out when to go and when to stop. A sticky dot (or such like) as a reference point, however, is taking things a little too far much of the time).

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#22 16-10-10 22:20:53

Freedom Phil
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From: Sunderland, North East UK
Registered: 31-03-09
Posts: 342
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Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

I'm currently giving some part 2 training to an ambulance driver, and some part 3 training to an ex class 1 police driver.  Both highly trained drivers, can get behind the wheel and just instinctively know what to do.  But ask them to express or quantify what is (for example) a safe gap, or when to turn the wheel during a left reverse or whatever, and they cant do it.  I need to almost dumb down their ability, so they can explain what you have to do to be successful at a left reverse or whatever, so they can then explain it to someone who doesn't have their abilities.  Reference points help with that.

.phil.
:angel:


DIA diploma in driving instruction.  DSA registered fleet trainer.  ORDIT registered trainer part's 1, 2, 3 & ORDIT premises inspected.  SAFED trainer and assessor.  RoSPA approved tutor.  Diamond registered advanced instructor.  Diamond qualified advanced examiner. City & Guilds 7303 PTLLS teaching certificate.  IAM advanced test, Diamond advanced test, Diamond special test, Cardington special test, RoSPA gold

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#23 16-10-10 22:26:48

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

Exactly! They are a way of simplifying something which is otherwise a tricky skill to acquire for some people - for whatever reason. They are a way - just one way - of describing "judgement" to those who cannot yet judge reliably themselves.

On the other side of the coin, sticking with them religiously (that would be the sticky dot brigade, mainly) can be a negative thing with some pupils who visualise things differently.

Horses for courses, as someone said.

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#24 17-10-10 07:33:22

looprevil
Verified Member
Registered: 17-03-08
Posts: 424

Re: Left corner reverse - can you adjust the steering wheel after the 1.5 turn?

Judgement requires reference points - it just requires you not to identify them.

When you know how far away from something you are, it is because you are referencing it with something else. Try doing it with your eyes shut, then you'll see the need to reference it with something lol

Don't forget that not all pupils are capable of the thing called "judgement" - not to start with, at least - and need a little help along the way. They just need that help delivering properly and not using little sticky dots and things.




(NOTE: I think people sometimes get "reference points" confused with "sticky dots" and such like. A reference point doesn't have to be a sticky dot. It is just how an individual relates to their immediate surroundings and so works out when to go and when to stop. A sticky dot (or such like) as a reference point, however, is taking things a little too far much of the time).

Agreed, as Aspyre says to make judgement drivers reference their judgements somehow. Experienced drivers tend not to consciously think about it (they just do it) and novice drivers tend to need help understanding it although some may just get it.

As with anything if a rigid method is continually used or a method is at the extremes of any scale i.e. using dots on windscreens/being too specific or not giving any information/guidance when some is needed then flexibiltity suffers.

I'd hope we all agree that flexibility in approach is important in our role.

regards

Paddy


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