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#1 08-01-10 15:18:06

triplea35
Guest

Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

Is it acceptable to select 1st gear when still moving, albeit very slowly. The situation I am thinking of is  when in a very slow moving queue of traffic and your in second gear but feel the car is about to judder unless you continually slip the clutch.

Thanks

08-01-10 15:18:06

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Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.




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#2 08-01-10 16:02:59

hoylake
Verified Member
From: Heysham
Registered: 21-09-07
Posts: 1,435
Website

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

Deffinitely yes. You will need to hold the clutch still for a moment or two, to avoid 'clutch bump', if you come through the bite point too fast you'll experience a horrible bump. The lower the speed the easier it is to do smoothly, so make sure the car is at an appropriate speed for Gear1.


http://www.sophiesdrivinglancaster.co.uk
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#3 08-01-10 21:32:44

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,696
Website

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

Never "using first gear on the move" stems from the days when first gear did not have syncromesh, meaning you got an awful crunch from the gearbox if the engine revs & car's speed weren't a close match.

When I was young (a lo-o-o-ng time ago in the 70's!) I got told off severely if I tried to get into first gear when moving, just like I was yelled at if I didn't "save the brakes" by changing down before braking.

You had to rev the engine up to match the car's speed, and some people also used double-declutching but that was years ago when I wore stovepipe pants, striped shirts and pointy shoes.
(The pointy shoes made it easy to rev with the toe while braking with the heel at the same time).

...The lower the speed the easier it is to do smoothly, so make sure the car is at an appropriate speed for Gear1.

Modern cars have syncromesh on 1st gear and it's OK to change on the move but remember hoylakeyaris' advice and wait until you are quite slow.

Most of my learners have problems because they usually don't wait until the car has slowed sufficiently.


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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#4 08-01-10 21:58:15

c-way
Verified Member
From: Peterborough
Registered: 03-10-06
Posts: 1,170
Website

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

Yes absolutely select 1st whilst moving at slow speed particularly on approach to closed junctions, get it ready to go not necessarily to stop each time, particularly in these icy conditions where keeping moving where possible reduces the risk of rear end shunts at roundabouts and junctions  smile

But, and there's always a but!  Depends on the car - my 1.3 diesel is crap at 2nd gear at 5 mph but my old 1.2 petrol would have been fine  wink My Landy diesel will go at 2nd gear from almost standstill  big_smile

Go with what the car needs  wink


ADI, IAM, B+E Training, CAT C & C+E Training www.c-way.co.uk

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#5 08-01-10 23:12:27

triplea35
Guest

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

Thanks for all the replies. Like Zipper I learned to drive in the early 70's (fond memories of stripey tanktops and loons) and told that selecting first gear whilst the car was moving was a complete 'no no'. Despite having further training, mostly in the 80's, and more recently assessments, it is an issue than I cannot recall ever being addressed. I have accepted and changed my method of driving to 'brakes first' and 'block changing of the gears' but have always come to a complete halt before selecting first gear.
I recently taught my 17yr old son to drive and he has passed his test presumably driving as I do. It is only in the last two months since he has passed that I have observed him starting to select first whilst moving. When I have questioned him on it no one has told him to do it that way but he felt it was a more natural way of driving. I have not challenged him over it as I had a gut feeling that my method might be a throwback to the days of syncro and sequential changing. Your replies have confirmed this.
     

#6 08-01-10 23:28:43

Tregster
Verified Member
From: Bridgend, South Wales
Registered: 01-09-09
Posts: 70
Website

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

I've asked myself the same question about using 1st gear on the move. I've been driving for nearly 23 years and am training for my part 2 test. My wife and I have recently changed to Diesel cars and my instructors car is also a diesel. I find one of the big differences with driving a diesel as opposed to petrol is on slow turns or in crawling traffic. Where a petrol engined car will take a slow crawling speed in 2nd gear, I find that in the diesel cars, when I reach a crawling speed in 2nd gear, then the car begins to drive me instead of me driving the car (if you know what I mean). This means that I find myself having to change into 1st gear to hold a lower speed. Perhaps the reason for this is that the diesel engines have much better low rev power and pull better at lower speeds.


Passed Part 1 - 08/12/09. 2nd attempt 99/65
Passed Part 2 - 20/01/10. 1st attempt 'Zero Faults'
Passed Part 3 - 29/06/10. 1st attempt 4 - 5

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#7 09-01-10 08:44:22

hoylake
Verified Member
From: Heysham
Registered: 21-09-07
Posts: 1,435
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Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

The 'pull' you've experienced is called diesel 'surge' this gives a dilema for the instructor, either get client to select G1 or teach them to slip the clutch in G2, for example on tight L& R turns.
Which is best/correct?

It will vary from situation to situation. Judging which is not always easy [for clients] sometimes for the experienced big_smile


http://www.sophiesdrivinglancaster.co.uk
Adi & Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Gold

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#8 09-01-10 21:13:37

Adi1234
Guest

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

I would say using First gear would be the best method because slipping the clutch places extra wear on it. And there is a danger the pupil might get the amount of slipping required wrong and car could surge forward. and compromise car control.


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#9 10-01-10 12:49:39

Disky
Verified Member
From: Central Scotland
Registered: 10-03-05
Posts: 1,333
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Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

to the OP,,, what would you do normally ?

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#10 11-01-10 12:29:25

triplea35
Guest

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

Disky, The short answer to that is that generally as long as the car wheels are turning I remain in second. If I come to a complete halt I only then select first gear. Has always seemed to work for me but I accept my son had a little difficulty always applying it. I bow to the advice on here and will not discourage him from selecting 1st on the move and will try and change my own style.   

#11 11-01-10 12:46:36

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

You don't really need to change your own style triplea unless its causing problems.

The only thing to remember is that if you slip the clutch a lot you wear out the plates quicker so if you are often starting off in 2nd then you need to take that into account.. Its not like you need a new one every couple of months but in the longer term it is probably significant.

With learners and new drivers their gear selection clutch control and speed awreness can be an issue and if they try to use 2nd and are going a bit too slow they can stall more easily.. I mean, they often put it into 1st when they are going too fast........ then they know about it.

No one size fits all smile

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#12 11-01-10 13:00:47

Tregster
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From: Bridgend, South Wales
Registered: 01-09-09
Posts: 70
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Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

I would say.. in short... that if you are driving slower than the car would drive itself on tickover in 2nd gear, then drop down to 1st, so that you are driving the car and not the car driving you.


Passed Part 1 - 08/12/09. 2nd attempt 99/65
Passed Part 2 - 20/01/10. 1st attempt 'Zero Faults'
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#13 11-01-10 17:21:46

Marco Polo
Member
From: Merseyside
Registered: 27-09-09
Posts: 59
Website

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

I learned to drive in a Mazda 323 and practised in my mum's Mini. I remember trying to put the damn thing into first (the Mini) when the car was doing 2 mph, the crunch was deafening!  yikes On another occassion I tried to put the gearstick into reverse while the car was creeping forward at 1 mph, the gearstick nearly ripped my hand off in protest. Despite the fact that the Mini was a pile of sh*t on wheels, I'll always look back with affection on the days when a car was just a car and it simply did what it said on the tin. I loved and hated that car.

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#14 02-02-10 19:11:31

GoInstructor
Member
From: United Kingdom
Registered: 21-01-10
Posts: 10
Website

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

1st gear can be used on the move, often you will find yourself needing first or second in slow moving traffic.

Select what gear is required, in most cars you can "crawl" in second gear pretty slowly but if you need first, use it!

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#15 02-02-10 21:32:46

DH
Member
Registered: 04-01-10
Posts: 154

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

A useful exercise and one that will make dealing with T-Junctions easier for most pupils is to find a long, quiet, uphill stretch, point the car uphill, drive off and go up through the gears. At some point get them to come off the gas and then as the car starts to get really slow, get them to put the clutch down, slip straight into first and ease the clutch up to the biting point (with a touch of gas) so that the car moves off smoothly without stopping. Then accelerate away normally and go up through the gears again.

You can modify this to get them slowing right down and then after they have selected 1st gear, bringing the clutch up to the biting point so that the car is held still on the hill without rolling back.

In time this will become second nature which is the whole point. Then they can try it on an actual junction. Be careful about anything coming up behind and be ready to flick on a left signal if appropriate. With a pupil at such an early stage I would be doing the rear obs myself because the whole point of the exercise is to isolate the skill itself.

Doing this on a long, uphill stretch (doesn't need to be too steep) without any junctions in the way is a simple way of isolating the footwork skill needed to deal with T-Junctions but without actually having to deal with the junction itself. It's a bit like isolating the steering skills by doing figure of eights in an empty car park.

Works every time.

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#16 02-02-10 21:40:08

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,696
Website

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

I've found that learners used to driving large vehicles such as utility vehicles and 4WD's are used to 2nd gear much more often.

...you are driving the car and not the car driving you.

In the old days you "saved the brakes", "saved the gearbox" - these days with modern brakes and syncromesh, driving styles have been adapted to suit, and the driver has more options and is in better overall control.
I also use the "car not driving you" theme when teaching parking to students who are reluctant to coast when creeping slowly

Another good point from DH.
I get my students to always select 1st a little earlier than normal when about to pull over on a steepi hill - they retain full control (there's that theme again) and have more time to carefully position the car alongside the kerb.


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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#17 19-02-10 23:13:21

mrbrightside
Verified Member
From: Doncaster, South Yorkshire
Registered: 07-05-07
Posts: 189

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

I find slipping the clutch in 2nd gear in a queue of traffic is bad practice.

In my opinion:
WRONG: You're in 2nd gear approaching a queue, you slow down, car starts to judder, you dip the clutch a bit, car slows down to a crawl, then the queue starts to move so you bring the clutch back up again.

RIGHT: Once the car has started juddering, and you dip the clutch, the car slows down and this is when you should select first gear.

If you press the clutch down, and bring it back up without changing to another gear, I believe this is a minor driving fault. (with the exception of using clutch control in 1st gear)


Part 1: Passed (11/9/07) 96/100 & 68/75
Part 2: Passed (19/10/07) 3 Minors
Part 3: (2nd) Passed (27/11/08) 4/4
Check Test: Grade 5 (16/03/11)

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#18 19-02-10 23:15:43

Adi1234
Guest

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

I would not think that would be a fault on L test. Maybe on part 2 it could be. Obviously depends on exact circumstances of the incident.


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#19 19-02-10 23:23:50

DH
Member
Registered: 04-01-10
Posts: 154

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

RIGHT: Once the car has started juddering, and you dip the clutch, the car slows down and this is when you should select first gear.

I wouldn't wait for the judder. It's uncomfortable and unnecessary. I had a pupil from another instructor about a year ago who did that and the car was shaking before he dipped the clutch. It can't be good for machinery to be juddering.

Having the clutch down for no good reason is what I would call coasting and whether it gets faulted depends on the examiner, the circumstances and for how long it's done/how often.

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#20 20-02-10 09:52:59

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,696
Website

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

After a while they can anticipate the judder before it happens and get the clutch pressed in time, but I've had students from other ADIs who've been taught to always wait for the judder - it's not only the engine that judders, I'm doing a bit of "juddering" myself by that time.

With the tests down here, examiners will accept car control issues which are deemed as "not best practice but acceptable for test purposes". Bringing the car down to juddering point is one of these, as is hand-over-hand steering and sequential shifting.
If too many people fail the test the government is in danger of booted out come next election.


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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#21 20-02-10 12:13:34

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

most examiners I know will couteract diesel surge in 2nd by dipping the clutch into the bite range enough to balance the revs again.

I used to do it on my van, but don't do it in my car which has a much better speed range in 1st gear than the van did.

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#22 20-02-10 19:08:50

DH
Member
Registered: 04-01-10
Posts: 154

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

Hi Zipper,

If too many people fail the test the government is in danger of booted out come next election.


I just love Australia! big_smile big_smile

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#23 20-02-10 22:22:36

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,696
Website

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

You love incompetent ratbag politicians?  yikes  big_smile
Yep you'll love it here, we have plenty of them.
Bring some snow with you, it's b****y HOT.


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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#24 21-02-10 00:44:01

DH
Member
Registered: 04-01-10
Posts: 154

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

Hi Zipper,

I've just sent you some snow by email.

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#25 21-02-10 08:17:38

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,696
Website

Re: Selecting 1st Gear on the move.

Thanks  lol


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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