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#1 26-11-09 01:34:52

BroomBroom
Member
Registered: 03-03-08
Posts: 10

Reverse around corner

When reversing around a corner on the manoeuvres bit I'm concerned that my instructor insists that I'm too close to the kerb going round. It' one of my least successful manoeuvres that I'm learning at the moment. I'm a bit hit and miss. 'Hit' being the bad part, as it refers to the kerb.

I understand that you need to be reasonably close to the kerb and not halfway over the other side of the road. But it seems that my instructor is trying to get me to go around so I'm virtually hugging the kerb itself. Almost as if I was reverse parking or something. I have tried in my older sisters car doing the move but staying away from the kerb. Still on the correct side of the road and not encroaching over the white line at any time but so I end up in a position in the side road that I would be if I was driving normally, e.g a little bit away from the kerb.

I'm just worried that on my test I'll end up whacking the kerb because I've been learning how to reverse into a road with their being virtually no space between the wheels and the kerb.

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26-11-09 01:34:52

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Re: Reverse around corner



#2 26-11-09 08:03:44

martin_t
Verified Member
Registered: 30-12-06
Posts: 357

Re: Reverse around corner

I don't insist my clients are any closer than 50cms from the kerb. Are you expected to be much closer?

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#3 26-11-09 08:13:24

BroomBroom
Member
Registered: 03-03-08
Posts: 10

Re: Reverse around corner

It feels like I am. Whenever we're doing it he's usually encouraging me to be much closer to the kerb and when we finish and he opens the door, if there's ANY real gap at all I'm told that I need to bring it in tighter. I didn;t think the idea was to reverse it into parking posisition.

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#4 26-11-09 09:12:03

yasmin
Verified Member
Registered: 02-06-07
Posts: 562

Re: Reverse around corner

You are correct in saying you are not trying to park the car--- merely reversing in order to change direction if you've gone the wrong way--- if you get what I mean. I teach my learners to be about 12-18 " away or a grid/grate and a half away. Not had a problem on test and many moons ago a DE mentioned the 'up to 18"' when a pupil had been too wide. The problem with being too close is that if you get the steering wrong, your front wheels may be the ones that hit the kerb as you try to adjust.

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#5 04-12-09 19:28:50

mrbrightside
Verified Member
From: Doncaster, South Yorkshire
Registered: 07-05-07
Posts: 189

Re: Reverse around corner

You shouldn't be encouraged to be tight to the kerb! People have already suggested distances, but I find it hard to judge what 18" is or what 18cms is even as an instructor! I just say to my students that you shouldnt be as close as you would be for parking, and you shouldnt be so far away as you would be on your "driving line" - find that small difference in the middle.

The problem with being tight to the kerb is the fact that any small errors in steering can result in you hitting the kerb- which seems to be happening with you. Your instructor is simply wrong in telling you to be very tight to the kerb.


Part 1: Passed (11/9/07) 96/100 & 68/75
Part 2: Passed (19/10/07) 3 Minors
Part 3: (2nd) Passed (27/11/08) 4/4
Check Test: Grade 5 (16/03/11)

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#6 07-12-09 05:54:25

MrBassMan
Verified Member
From: Ceredigion, West Wales
Registered: 10-05-04
Posts: 669
Website

Re: Reverse around corner

The easiest way to get the right distance in your head is to imagine where you would position the car to drive FORWARD around the corner. Use the same positions when you reverse.


Learn 2 Pass
Driving lessons in and around Ceredigion in West Wales  http://www.L2P.co.uk

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#7 26-12-09 17:01:52

Herbie
Verified Member
From: Langport, Somerset
Registered: 27-05-09
Posts: 206
Website

Re: Reverse around corner

The examiner has always said 'keeping a reasonable distance from the kerb' in the tests I've sat in on smile

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#8 04-01-10 23:27:52

Braincell
Member
Registered: 08-12-09
Posts: 1

Re: Reverse around corner

It all depends on the corner.

You should stay on your own side of the road.

If it is a bell mouth corner (the shallow long ones) the distance away can generally be quite far away without incurring a fault. Up to a metre away in some of the very wide ones.

If it is the short tight little corners that require full or nearly full steering then you will generally have less room to play with and therefore you may need to be as close as 15-20 cms.

The examiner is probably more interested that you end up parallel to the kerb rather than how close.

As long as you do not go over the wrong side of the road and you are within a metre of the kerb you should be ok.

Last bit of advice, Dont be too paranoid about distance and definately dont sacrifice your rear observations to stay really close to the kerb.

Hope this helps you.

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#9 05-01-10 01:44:07

gday
Verified Member
From: Oxfordshire
Registered: 27-04-05
Posts: 531
Website

Re: Reverse around corner

The examiner has always said 'keeping a reasonable distance from the kerb' in the tests I've sat in on smile

The Instructions given on test are keeping "reasonably close to the kerb and finshing parallel to it."

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#10 05-01-10 08:15:35

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Reverse around corner

It is areasonable distance form the kerb which the examiner will assess in relation to the roadwith and prevailing circumstances.


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#11 06-02-10 07:52:15

collywobs
Verified Member
From: Tonbridge Kent
Registered: 07-08-06
Posts: 479
Website

Re: Reverse around corner

It really depends on the type of corner (long/round/gentle or short/square/sharp) and how wide the road is that you are reversing into? We have some really wide roads where there's more margin for error and some really narrow roads where you must keep closer to the kerb. I ask my students to stay about a 'drains width' away from the kerb which seems to work successfully and there is normally a drain on most corners to help them judge that distance!


Colin Kentish
Grade 6 DSA Approved Driving Instructor (car)
www.colinkentish.co.uk

Dream as if you'll live for ever
Live as if you'll die today

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#12 06-02-10 17:36:22

DH
Member
Registered: 04-01-10
Posts: 154

Re: Reverse around corner

If you are really unhappy with what you are being asked to do then give a little thought to changing instructors.

Try asking him what the actual limits are for the manoeuvre and if he tells you anything much different from what you've read above then he doesn't know what he's talking about or he isn't explaining it properly. Generally, there isn't anything wrong with reversing around the corner really close to the kerb and you won't be penalised for it but why make life hard for yourself? Giving yourself a little leeway by following the advice above will mean that you stand less chance of mounting the kerb.

Remember also that you don't HAVE to do the manoeuvre in one go, if you think it's going to go badly wrong then don't carry on with it until it gets worse. Stop the car, draw forward far enough to sort it out and take it from there. You will generally get a minor fault for doing that but if the alternative is a fail then why not. That goes for any of the manoeuvres but do remember that you will need to keep up the observations throughout.

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#13 06-02-10 20:35:52

scannermanh
Verified Member
Registered: 20-08-08
Posts: 206

Re: Reverse around corner

Just before you start to reverse, have a look in the left door mirror. If you are a "drains width" from the kerb, the kerb will normally appear on the left edge in the mirror, if you keep it there as you reverse around you will follow round with the same gap. Don't stare in your mirror, keep your Obs going, but while looking around keep checking the gap, remember space=time, the closer you get to the kerb, the less time you have look around before checking on you gap. Try it, it works for my pupils.


Scannermanh the Muppet
nils

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#14 06-02-10 22:43:36

DH
Member
Registered: 04-01-10
Posts: 154

Re: Reverse around corner

Some instructors scream like a wounded dog if learner drivers look into the left door mirror. They have some strange idea that examiners will fail you for it when in fact examiners tend not to mind it at all.

As long as you are taking effective observation it's perfectly OK to look in the left door mirror but I would add that since it is a convex mirror it is generally better just to use it for the 'round bit' and use a reference point in the rear window for reversing in a straight line.

Why should being convex be a problem? Because you are looking at it from the drivers seat/a wide angle and so it will distort what you see, tending to send you out towards the middle of the road if you are not very well practised in it's use.

For this reason when I reverse a truck I tend to trust the right hand door mirror to line up, only using the left hand mirror to help with visually clearing the area.

A lot of car instructors also cling rigidly to the idea of looking through the side windows to gauge how close you are to the kerb when it doesn't actually work with all corners/all makes of car. In truth, scannermanh's advice is probably best because the fact is that you can't see the kerb/a darn thing through the side of the car, only through the door mirror. A mate of mine told me recently that he's been teaching people to reverse around corners for years by looking through the left rear windows and gauging where the kerb was from that. When I asked him to try it he went 4ft wide. Using the side mirror method he cracked it first time.

So why has he been teaching it that way? Because that's what his trainer originally told him.

Learners go along with it because their instructors tell them it works.

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#15 06-02-10 23:46:22

EKAL
Verified Member
From: East Kilbride
Registered: 23-04-06
Posts: 1,050
Website

Re: Reverse around corner

all the examples above work, but if you cant find a grate (stank in Glesga  roll) or cant work out inches or centimetres, try using the width of your steering wheel as a guide to how far from the kerb you should start the manoeuvre.


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#16 07-02-10 01:49:44

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,690
Website

Re: Reverse around corner

We don't test "reverse round corners" down here except in heavy vehicles, our average  Bruce Public would be taken unawares and it's a bit risky, people do multipoint turns which have their own little risks.

Our log book system involves reversing along a straight kerb, some instructors get upset if the left door mirror is used - I think their reasoning is that main attention should be out the rear window for a panoramic view.
I agree for a straight-line reverse but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use anything else to assist observation as DH says.

During straight-line reversing my students do include the door mirror without staring at it, they also use rear side windows e.g. looking for pedestrians & someone coming out of a driveway, and they occasionally look to the front (especially if they get the car out of sorts and they feel "lost in space").

After reading this thread and a few others on the same topic, I think I'll put more attention to reversing round corners (we don't even test the multipoint turn on the "public test" down here).
I'm on a steering committee* which is considering proposed changes to our driver training industry for the Minister of Transport - I might recommend that reversing round a corner for cars be included in our logbook program provided a "blind corner" is not used.

*No, there is no gear-changing committee.


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
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#17 07-02-10 17:23:03

DH
Member
Registered: 04-01-10
Posts: 154

Re: Reverse around corner

Hi Zipper,

The problem with using the left door mirror is simply that some people will rely on it too much and as with using any mirror during reversing it only gives a narrow view to the rear, not the panoramic view we would want.

I would be violently opposed to anyone just using mirrors to reverse a car and won't let my own trainees get away with it for a second. But I also feel that if there is an easy way to check your distance from the kerb why not use it so long all round obs are kept up religiously.

Looking over the right shoulder several times while on the curved part of the reverse is the 'killer look' to clear the right hand blindspot and is the look that most people tend to forget the first time they carry out a full left reverse independently.

I'm sure you are familiar with our test requirements. Personally I think too much emphasis is put on manoeuvres at the expense of testing pure driving but that's just an opinion. Examiners tend to give lots of leeway on the manouevre itself but very little on the associated observations for  obvious reasons.

Steering committee? Judging by the threads on here that could be a job for life!

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#18 07-02-10 21:17:40

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,690
Website

Re: Reverse around corner

...problem with using the left door mirror is simply that some people will rely on it too much and as with using any mirror during reversing it only gives a narrow view to the rear, not the panoramic view we would want.

I would be violently opposed to anyone just using mirrors to reverse a car...

Agree completely without the violence  tongue

...Personally I think too much emphasis is put on manoeuvres at the expense of testing pure driving but that's just an opinion...

...an opinion shared by a lot of us down here, about our own test.
I think that manoeuvres are an easy way to make the test hard - in fact one of our Road Transport Group policy makers once admitted it, I would imagine the same situation in the the UK (and the UK is where Aus occasionally turns to for inspiration).
Last week one of my students failed because although she drove safely with good observation & judgement and nice car control, she panicked during the 2 parking manoeuvres and messed them up (still stayed safe).
Not a good way of failing a test.


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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#19 08-02-10 07:31:39

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Reverse around corner

Nothing wrong with using the door mirror providing it is used alongside other references that help develop spatial awareness, and good observations are also maintained, throughout.
Why make something difficult when the same objective can be achieved more effectively and simply?? 


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#20 08-02-10 13:16:31

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Reverse around corner

Agreed.

Staring in the door mirror is just as bad as staring out the back window or rear quarterlight (the other rigid methods ppls get taught).

As the driving test report explains, you need to be in control and take good observations.

If you want to do it stark naked while covered in goose fat and wearing a swimming cap as well it won't directly affect the outcome.. Nor will using the mirror to check where the kerb is and as part of your continued checks.

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#21 08-02-10 16:55:38

DH
Member
Registered: 04-01-10
Posts: 154

Re: Reverse around corner

So where are some trainee instructors and even some of our colleagues who have been at it for years getting the dogmatic 'never use the side door mirror' attitude from?

Part of the problem with instructor training in this country is that whatever course you might do no trainer or company can possibly cover every aspect of every subject during your training course and so we do get those half understood, rigid ideas passed on time and time again. I'm getting pupils from other instructors who think that you fail your driving test for stalling the car or something equally insignificant because that's what their previous guy has told them.

Sometimes I think it could be that the feedback from examiners is not what it could be and I think breaking down the barriers between examiners and instructors could help to sort that out. Why for instance should a learner driver have to come on a forum like this to get an answer to a simple question, arguably because they aren't getting a sensible answer from their instructor?

We all have the same aim don't we?

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#22 08-02-10 17:08:09

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Reverse around corner

All have the same aim..... but some are better shots than others..... that's the problem tongue

In my opinion the problem stems from the instructor simply not understanding themselves, so how can they explain to a ppl?? All they can do is teach rigidly what THEY were taught and if that doesn't work they have nowhere else to turn.

This is where the 'don't look in the mirror' attitude comes from in most cases...... they've heard it so it must be true.

The driving test report clearly says that for any manoeuvre the examiner wants to see control and adequate observations........ so quite why for example you get arguments about straightening the wheels or even going full lock in the opposite way when nearing the kerb on TIR is down to the instructor's questionable interpretation and no one else.. It might be a cleaner result if they straighten the wheels..... but they don't have to be EXACTLY straight (but many instructors can only see it that way)..... and it will still work in most cases if they go dead slow and don't move the wheels at all when they reach the kerb.

The examiner doesn't give two hoots how a manoeivre is done as long as it is safe and in control.

It is those who insist on trying to give defiite methods who have the problem tongue That's what leads to rigid ideas in otehrs who don't understand either.

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#23 09-02-10 11:29:51

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,690
Website

Re: Reverse around corner

...If you want to do it stark naked while covered in goose fat and wearing a swimming cap as well it won't directly affect the outcome...

Hmmmm. Perhaps.
Though it might depend just WHERE one wears the swimming cap.


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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#24 25-01-11 23:35:19

HewittsDriving
Member
Registered: 16-01-11
Posts: 24
Website

Re: Reverse around corner

I teach my pupils to follow roughly about a drains width away but the main thing is to keep up the observations, watch for the cars and pedestrians and finish parallel with the kurb. i have seen pupils go a bit too wide at points and still pass because they didn't encroach onto the other side of the road.


Driving lessons in Leeds, Wakefield, Dewsbury and Batley.
http://www.hewitts-schoolofmotoring.co.uk

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#25 21-02-11 23:45:42

lynesweb
Member
From: South Lincs
Registered: 19-02-11
Posts: 19

Re: Reverse around corner

A grates distance is great!

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