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#1 20-12-09 21:17:29

Tregster
Verified Member
From: Bridgend, South Wales
Registered: 01-09-09
Posts: 70
Website

Left Reverse Help Needed.

Hi All,
I'm currently training for my pt 2 which is in 4 weeks time. My instructor tells me that my general drive is good, but I'm having trouble with the left reverse. I'm trying to use the reference points that are marked in the instructors car and they work a treat on some turns, but on long sweeping bends they send me quite wide of the curb as I turn but then brings me back to a good position at the end of the curve ready for the straight reverse back.
Also, there is one left reverse on the ADI PT2 test route where I cannot line-up my reference points with the curb around the bend because there is a wall and hedge in the way.
Any tips on getting the left reverse right?
Also, feel free to give tips on the parallel park too?

I'll look forward to receiving some help. smile


Passed Part 1 - 08/12/09. 2nd attempt 99/65
Passed Part 2 - 20/01/10. 1st attempt 'Zero Faults'
Passed Part 3 - 29/06/10. 1st attempt 4 - 5

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20-12-09 21:17:29

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Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.



#2 20-12-09 21:22:40

Adi1234
Guest

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

My tip would be to use left hand door mirror to see the distance the rear of car is away from the kerb then set up reference point up in car to correspond with that. Remember you should not use mirror while reversing because of compromised visibility. i am just suggesting to use it as a aid to setting up other reference points. distance away from kerb. The biggest thing that helped me was practice practice practice. also sometimes moving in your seat can give you a better view e.g moving your head around to search for kerb.


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#3 20-12-09 21:27:18

adi
Verified Member
From: shropshire
Registered: 28-02-04
Posts: 1,231
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Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

Don't use the reference points.
Reverse round following the kerb viewed through the window and check progress with the left mirror, whilst also making all round observations throughout. If you find that difficult, slow to a stop to check.

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#4 20-12-09 22:12:38

Freedom Phil
Verified Member
From: Sunderland, North East UK
Registered: 31-03-09
Posts: 342
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Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

In your instructors car if you cant do it all the time on all the corners, then the stickers don't work.  Try doing a left reverse in a car other than your instructors, one without the sticker reference points.

I've posted on here before about instructors having stickers ect in the rear window as reference points, because when your learners (or trainee instructors!) get in a car without a load of stickers on the back window they cant do it..... do you want to teach them to drive or just to pass a test?!!? 

Glancing in your mirror is fine, just don't stare at it.  The DSA guidelines state "good effective observations throughout" so if you look out the rear window, n/s window, n/s mirror, center mirror, ahead, o/s mirror and back round again, you are taking effective observation throughout because your looking round everywhere to make sure it's safe and clear, and you can then use the mirror as a guide for distance.  Of course, that only works if you get the car  s l o w  which is what most people struggle with.

Remember, if your going to teach this to a learner, you really need to be able to understand it and do it yourself.

Hope that helps
.phil.
:angel:


DIA diploma in driving instruction.  DSA registered fleet trainer.  ORDIT registered trainer part's 1, 2, 3 & ORDIT premises inspected.  SAFED trainer and assessor.  RoSPA approved tutor.  Diamond registered advanced instructor.  Diamond qualified advanced examiner. City & Guilds 7303 PTLLS teaching certificate.  IAM advanced test, Diamond advanced test, Diamond special test, Cardington special test, RoSPA gold

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#5 20-12-09 22:19:27

Adi1234
Guest

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

Good point there about being slow that is the key point for all reversing exercises. I would suggest that Using the left mirror to get a feel for the exercise would be a good Idea but be careful to not over rely on it. I would suggest after a few goes when you are getting the hang of it to fold left door mirror in and try without the mirror being there. That is also a good teaching technique with learners. They tend to not use the mirror half as much after a few goes with it folded in.


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#6 22-12-09 07:14:59

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

Don't use the reference points.
Reverse round following the kerb viewed through the window and check progress with the left mirror, whilst also making all round observations throughout. If you find that difficult, slow to a stop to check.

big_smile
Experienced drivers generally do not need reference points unless proved that their judgement is poor.
As previously suggested occasional glances in the nearside mirror is an excellent way of confirming your position in relation to the kerb
I am always amazed how so called ADI Trainers 'down train' the experienced driver to drive in the manner of a novice.
The Part 2 test is an advanced driving test and you should drive in a safe, fluent and progressive  and skilled manner.
The advice to 'slow to a stop' is in my opinion a 'learnerish' technique and not what is expected of an experienced driver. smile


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#7 22-12-09 09:24:55

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

Have to disagree with part of that.

Every driver has to work out where they are in relation to an object and the only way they can do that is by judgement in relation to things around them.

As they become more experienced they think about it less but they still have to reference their position in relation to the outside world.. A beginner needs to do it consciously thats all...... and some more than others.. EVERYONE ues reference points one way or another to judge position.. They just don't realise it as experience kicks in.. And a "beginner" is anyone who can't do the manoeuvre.

It would be wrong of an ADI trainer not to train PDIs so that they understand how a learner learns.. There is no way just saying to a learner "think how close you are to the kerb" is more helpful than "look where the kerb is in the mirror" (for example)..... and even if some CAN do it that way an awful lot can't.

I agree that someone who resorts to sticky dots all over the place is barking up the wrong tree and that this trainer does appear to be missing the point, but individual reference points (unique to each individual) are not a sign of a bad driver.. If the OP can't do the manoeuvre then using ref points is likely to help.

There has been a big discussion on here before (at least once) about whether Part 2 is an "advanced" test.

It is virtually the learner test with fewer faults allowed, all the manoeuvres required, and an examiner aware he is dealing with a qualified driver.. It is unlikely straightlining roundabouts and taking bends on the wrong side of the road would get you 0 faults on Part 2.

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#8 22-12-09 13:27:34

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

Have to disagree with part of that.

Every driver has to work out where they are in relation to an object and the only way they can do that is by judgement in relation to things around them.

As they become more experienced they think about it less but they still have to reference their position in relation to the outside world.. A beginner needs to do it consciously thats all...... and some more than others.. EVERYONE ues reference points one way or another to judge position.. They just don't realise it as experience kicks in.. And a "beginner" is anyone who can't do the manoeuvre.

* red,2,300
There is no way just saying to a learner "think how close you are to the kerb" is more helpful than "look where the kerb is in the mirror" (for example)..... and even if some CAN do it that way an awful lot can't.

I agree that someone who resorts to sticky dots all over the place is barking up the wrong tree and that this trainer does appear to be missing the point, but individual reference points (unique to each individual) are not a sign of a bad driver.. * red,2,300

There has been a big discussion on here before (at least once) about whether Part 2 is an "advanced" test.

It is virtually the learner test with fewer faults allowed, all the manoeuvres required, and an examiner aware he is dealing with a qualified driver.. It is unlikely straightlining roundabouts and taking bends on the wrong side of the road would get you 0 faults on Part 2.

Experienced driver should have developed their judgement to a certain extent, if they are experiencing difficulties then reference points can be given to help rectify the problem.
Novices generally require (not always) reference points when they begin their training to help develop their judgement and spatial awareness. 
* red,2,300

I totally disagree with this statement, that aspect does not need to be incorporated into the PDI's training until Part 3.
With regards to Part 2 'if it ain't broke don't fix it. It is these sort of training methods that takes the 'experience' away from the experienced driver and makes them drive on the Part 2 test resembling something not much better than the learner driver :?


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#9 22-12-09 14:14:17

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

No, I disagree. There is nothing wrong with teaching Part 3 topics during Part 2.

I'm not saying it is wrong NOT to do it...... but it is definitely wrong to say NOT to do it wink Theres more than one way to skin a cat as they say.

However that is not the situation here and it looks like the trainer in question is maybe doing what you commented on before and forcing people to use reference points - hence the sticky dots, which is a silly method.

Let's not take comments out of context though....... it remains that we ALL use reference points.... just not consciously.. I was thinking about it earlier while driving along a country road and even though you are not consciously trying to line up the edge of the road with a specific ref point you ARE keeping the edge of the road in a stable position......... and for a beginner that stage does not come immediately.

Also being a good ADI is about how well you can instruct, teach, coach whatever words you want to use.

It most definitely is not about how well someone thinks they can drive.. That is a relatively small part of it.. All you have to do is reach a certain standard of which Part 2 is a measure.. As I said Part 2 is not an advanced qualification.

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#10 22-12-09 14:29:19

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

What is the criteria for an Advanced Test?
For example the RoSPA test is 'advanced' yet the standard required to achieve a gold is no where near the same attaining Class 1  in Police driving skills, yet both are 'advanced'  neutral


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#11 22-12-09 14:40:52

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

Part 2 isn't an advanced test in the sense that is meant and some one who has passed it is not an advanced driver.. They have just passed Part 2 thats all.

If you want to use a dictionary definition then the pedantic ones will gleefully announce it must be advanced because it is at a higher level than the learner test.

But in reality you have to ask if everyone who passes Part 2 is an advanced driver.. They aren't.

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#12 22-12-09 15:27:42

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

I couldn't agree more big_smile


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#13 22-12-09 19:50:57

Tregster
Verified Member
From: Bridgend, South Wales
Registered: 01-09-09
Posts: 70
Website

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

Thanks for all your replies...

So... can I conclude from the advice that I should revert back to my judgement. I feel happier doing that as the reference points do not work the same for every corner.
I'm feeling as if my driving is being stripped back down to basics and am being trained to move away from the instinctive driving that has served me well for over 20 years. For instance, if I have to check the rear view and nearside mirrors before signalling to exit a roundabout, then am I paying enough attention to the driver who is about to pull out in front of me from the exit before the one I intend to exit from?
Perhaps a combination of reference points and judgement is the way to go.
One thing that I will say is that I get on with my instructor really well. I just need to find the methods that suite me best and practice them.


Passed Part 1 - 08/12/09. 2nd attempt 99/65
Passed Part 2 - 20/01/10. 1st attempt 'Zero Faults'
Passed Part 3 - 29/06/10. 1st attempt 4 - 5

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#14 22-12-09 20:14:37

hoylake
Verified Member
From: Heysham
Registered: 21-09-07
Posts: 1,435
Website

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

It says in your original post, that your using your instructors car. I did my part 2 in my car, you must be better aquainted with your own vehicle, if it is suitable for the part 2 you could use it rather than your trainers' vehicle.


http://www.sophiesdrivinglancaster.co.uk
Adi & Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Gold

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#15 22-12-09 20:34:47

adi
Verified Member
From: shropshire
Registered: 28-02-04
Posts: 1,231
Website

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

adi wrote:

Don't use the reference points.
Reverse round following the kerb viewed through the window and check progress with the left mirror, whilst also making all round observations throughout. If you find that difficult, slow to a stop to check.

big_smile
Experienced drivers generally do not need reference points unless proved that their judgement is poor.
As previously suggested occasional glances in the nearside mirror is an excellent way of confirming your position in relation to the kerb
I am always amazed how so called ADI Trainers 'down train' the experienced driver to drive in the manner of a novice.
The Part 2 test is an advanced driving test and you should drive in a safe, fluent and progressive  and skilled manner.
The advice to 'slow to a stop' is in my opinion a 'learnerish' technique and not what is expected of an experienced driver. smile

Yes that's right.
Like i said, "if you find that difficult".

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#16 22-12-09 21:35:38

Tregster
Verified Member
From: Bridgend, South Wales
Registered: 01-09-09
Posts: 70
Website

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

It says in your original post, that your using your instructors car. I did my part 2 in my car, you must be better aquainted with your own vehicle, if it is suitable for the part 2 you could use it rather than your trainers' vehicle.

I have a VW Touareg Automatic and a Triumph Spitfire that is SORN'd for the winter. So not really suitable LOL smile. My wife has a peugoet 207 that I practice in, but it's not always available as she needs it for work. The instructors car is fine.. it's a clio.. easy to drive and very similar to the 207.


Passed Part 1 - 08/12/09. 2nd attempt 99/65
Passed Part 2 - 20/01/10. 1st attempt 'Zero Faults'
Passed Part 3 - 29/06/10. 1st attempt 4 - 5

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#17 23-12-09 13:00:47

hoylake
Verified Member
From: Heysham
Registered: 21-09-07
Posts: 1,435
Website

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

Neither are ideal vehicles LOL


http://www.sophiesdrivinglancaster.co.uk
Adi & Fleet Trainer, RoSPA Gold

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#18 23-12-09 21:47:47

jlo31
Verified Member
Registered: 17-02-09
Posts: 194
Website

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

Thank goodness for the sensible comments on this forum that while using your mirror for information you can also use it to check for accuracy (although I do appreciate this should be just a glance and not staring at it!!!). My trainer taught me to do this and I was amazed that when looking at various part 3 vids when doing left or right reverse, doors mirrors were never even mentioned. Seemed like a dirty word.

If someone now told me that I could not use a door mirror at all to do a left reverse I would say fine.... Can I just bring my White van along with me next time, show me how to do a left reverse with out me using the  door mirrors then!!!!!!  wink

Cheers

Jlo31


RoSPA Diploma in Advanced Driving Instruction
IAM Motorcycle
DSA ADI (Car)
DSA Fleet registered trainer (Grade 5)
www.PrecisionDriverTraining.co.

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#19 28-12-09 10:08:49

drivinginstructortrainer
Member
From: National
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 10
Website

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

Hey,

There has been some good points made.

What i tend to do is let the PDI attempt the manoeuvre a couple of times for consistency. Then gauging from the accuracy, advise on the best way forward. If they have natural coordination, i then just tweak the necessary points, e.g obs/speed. if the accuracy is way off, then advise to use a "reference" point (explain how and why to pick ref point) and or mirror, as long as they maintain effective observations. I understand why people feel "reference" points do not always work... but after all, that's what it is, something to "refer" to. There are many more elements involved: speed/steering...  the speed of the car... the amount of steering... the speed of steering. Which all contribute to the final result. As long as all these elements are clear to the PDI they can practice practice practice and find the most effective method that suits there skills.

Thanks for all your replies...

Perhaps a combination of reference points and judgement is the way to go.
One thing that I will say is that I get on with my instructor really well. I just need to find the methods that suite me best and practice them.

Sounds good to me Tregster, good luck.


Many years of driving instructor training experience.

www.thedrivinginstructortrainer.co.uk

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#20 28-12-09 12:34:20

Evan
Administrator
Registered: 27-12-09
Posts: 2,058

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

Thanks for all your replies...

So... can I conclude from the advice that I should revert back to my judgement. I feel happier doing that as the reference points do not work the same for every corner.
I'm feeling as if my driving is being stripped back down to basics and am being trained to move away from the instinctive driving that has served me well for over 20 years. For instance, if I have to check the rear view and nearside mirrors before signalling to exit a roundabout, then am I paying enough attention to the driver who is about to pull out in front of me from the exit before the one I intend to exit from?
Perhaps a combination of reference points and judgement is the way to go.
One thing that I will say is that I get on with my instructor really well. I just need to find the methods that suite me best and practice them.

Hi Tregster, one point to remember when developing your ability to do any of the manoeuvres, is that you must be able to teach them on your part 3 and also to your pupils.

Whatever methods you develop for doing them, make sure they are pupil friendly. What you are aiming to be is a successful driving instructor who teaches novices to drive a car with effective teaching methods. To do this you will need simple, concise instruction and easy to follow reference points. The reason I make this point, is because so many pass part 2, then have the additional hurdle of trying to go through it all again in order to teach it effectively.
Make your part 3 easier, and start writing down what you are doing now, this way you can start developing your future lesson plans. Also remember the problems you are having, you can already drive, your pupils will be novices, and many will find the manoeuvres and indeed other elements of driving very difficult, if you don't have tried and tested formulas for teaching them, both you and they will struggle. Good luck. Ev

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#21 28-12-09 12:53:28

Tregster
Verified Member
From: Bridgend, South Wales
Registered: 01-09-09
Posts: 70
Website

Re: Left Reverse Help Needed.

Thanks guys.. great comments. I'm really glad that I've had some difficulty adding a little science to my instinct and judgement. It's taught me how to find my own reference points and hopefully will be ably to help a learner do the same thing.
I think one of the biggest problems was that I was trying to do it without the use of the near side mirror. It made a huge difference when I took the odd glance in the mirror for a reference.


Passed Part 1 - 08/12/09. 2nd attempt 99/65
Passed Part 2 - 20/01/10. 1st attempt 'Zero Faults'
Passed Part 3 - 29/06/10. 1st attempt 4 - 5

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