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#101 18-11-09 08:26:49

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

''I remember at several points of my training that for an idea to be taken on consistently by a client that we need to make sure they understand why they should/shouldn't do something a particular way.  Using that sort of idea, I wouldn't tell a client of mine that "You mustn't do that because HQ says you mustn't" or "You mustn't do that because you have never worked for the emergency services".  I would much rather talk to the client and, using such tools as Q&A, help them understand the risks involved in the use of a particular technique and get them to balance the risks against the benefits - regardless of what that technique is.''

''why not tell him that you consider me to be a bad & out of date trainer too!''.

Nigel
I have re-entered the thread I as now feel the debate is once again constructive smile
No one is accusing you of being a bad trainer, reading the above quote from yourself I think that maybe a there have been a lot of crossed wires during this debate. What you are saying there makes more sense than any of the many, many of your previous lengthy unproductive posts.
Coaching is no doubt a very powerful tool and addresses the 'affective domain' or attitude aspect of driving techniques very well. Our beliefs can sometimes be that we so strong that we cannot see things for what they actually are, in which case use a coaching techique can be most effective way of dealing with incorrect or undesirable driving techniques.
The issue in this debate I believe is whether or not you are actively 'teaching' extending on nearside bends or simply dealing with it if it occurs?
I would appreciate a civil and constructive answer to my question in order to keep this thread on track. big_smile     


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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18-11-09 08:26:49

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Re: Position for Corners.




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#102 18-11-09 10:03:43

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

The issue in this debate I believe is whether or not you are actively 'teaching' extending on nearside bends or simply dealing with it if it occurs?

I think that was answered earlier

http://www.drivertrainingtoday.co.uk/fo … #msg275081

Am glad to see the thread is back on topic. smile

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#103 18-11-09 10:49:07

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

Kevin
It was but not by Nigel.
You have had the benefit of many conversations with Nigel ,and with that you have managed to gain an insight into Nigel's training ethos and techniques.
The same clarity was not afforded to us by Nigel as communications became distacted and off the subject. 
Jane


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#104 18-11-09 11:52:42

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Ah!  So were you saying that I have an attitude problem with this?

"You mustn't do that because HQ says you mustn't" or "You mustn't do that because you have never worked for the emergency services".

I am saying there is a huge issue with your affective domain  yikes with regards this thread and a few others. I have read a number of your posts, albeit from some time ago, and they do indicate that you advocate straightlining and going offside, however you may be able to clarify your current stance by clearly answering Jane's question.   roll

With the other area of effective Q & A I realise by reading some of your replies that you are fully aware of the safety factors and reasoning behind IAM & RoSPA not advocating to the general public, offsiding in corners and straightlining and you know how it should be done, therefore the problem is clearly within your affective domain. Hence with your experience, I thought you may be on a wind up here.

With regards Bob, I don't think he should be mentioned further in the post as I have a lot of respect for his experience and position and you seem to indicate that his viewpoint may well be the same as RoSPA (and mine).

I have also mention clearly in this thread that there is a problem in driver training generally with different trainers not changing with the times. We still get some delegates through who make reference to 'course' and 'considering horn warning' as a regular and routine part of their commentary as it used to be done in the old days.

Suffice to say it is a problem for any business or organisation as can be seen in any examples of the police, nursing and teaching where individuals or managers are relucatant to change and make progress as new guidelines come in and they decide to stand still or keep going back to days of a bygone era.

If on the other hand as I have also previously said, an individual, knowing the risks involved, decides to drive using offside and straighlining methods then so be it, but they should not say it is an IAM, RoSPA or up to date Roadcraft method or way of doing things.

Interestingly, I have been watching the pistonheads site and have been on one of their group runs recently - a lot of the drivers adopted the methods of straighlining bends and offsiding as being discussed here to make 'more progress' carrying a bit more speed into a situation due to the perceived view and better stability. Most are nice people and can handle their cars, however, a couple of incidents did happen on the days including cars going off the road.

Did I straightline a few bends myself that day and did another driver in my car do it as well to make progress while discussing the pros and cons of doing so?  wink Did I say this is how advanced drivers do it for IAM & RoSPA? :angel: No I didn't.

Was it fun in this car?  :evil:
4001679985_021eb4e0d6.jpg

I have also been out on a few RoSPA Driving Days and have yet (touch wood) to be aware of any cars going off the road.


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#105 18-11-09 19:50:51

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

....You have had the benefit of many conversations with Nigel ,and with that you have managed to gain an insight into Nigel's training ethos and techniques.
The same clarity was not afforded to us by Nigel as communications became distacted and off the subject. 
Jane

Actually the difference was that Kevin afforded me the kindness of reading what I had typed unlike one or two others.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#106 18-11-09 20:00:12

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,962

Re: Position for Corners.

Come on boys play nice wink

Giz

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#107 18-11-09 20:04:39

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

....No one is accusing you of being a bad trainer.....

As has been quoted, Brian has inferred that I am a bad and out of date trainer.  I was quite looking forward to him telling that to Bob!  big_smile

Add on to that your absurd suggestion that I am not qualified.  And no apology from either of you  roll

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#108 18-11-09 20:53:51

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi Nigel,

You do take this so personally and appear to have read into my comments and observations, that some of the things that I have said were actually referring to you!  yikes


I must say, yet again, that this is not personal against you, however for some reason  neutral you are in fact the one who has come out with the suggestion

''why not tell him that you consider me to be a bad & out of date trainer too!''

Not once in this thread have I or anyone else, except you, made reference to you being a bad and out of date trainer!    roll

Anyway, back to Jane's question . . . . . :police: wink to stay on topic.  :angel:

#109 19-11-09 05:45:06

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

I think it is sad when people cannot admit they got something wrong and apologise for doing so.

Being able to take responsibility for one's own actions, and being able to accept they're wrong on occasion is, I believe, key in one's attitude in life, but particularly on the road.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#110 19-11-09 07:13:44

Gizmotime
Administrator
From: Bolton Lancashire
Registered: 05-04-04
Posts: 1,962

Re: Position for Corners.

Well I have asked once for you all to play nicely, but looks like the insults  and some form of bullying is still continuing.
If you have a problem with one another then please do it by PM, or go through the correct channels via a mod or admin.

Anymore insults and the thread will be locked.

Giz.

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#111 19-11-09 10:35:53

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi,

'Insults and bullying' - quite a strong accusation.

I certainly haven't taken anything personal on here from Nigel or anyone else. If you think either I or someone else has been to someone, can you please clarify where, as this has got me quite intrigued (even PM me if appropriate)?

This thread appears to be Nigel (and I don't know him) taking some things personally that haven't been directed at him and some things even more personally that have when he has been asked to clarify his thoughts or reasoning. (most people I have discussions with don't react the way he does though [would be a sad and boring place if we were all the same])

I have made generalisations other than mention the affective domain issues, which if someone reads into it in more detail will realise it is quite a valid comment.

I have no issue at all if someone drives in a particualr way that is in contradiction to rules, laws, or guidelines (there are threads on here that show certain people here also have issues with what a rul or law is, when most others can clearly differentiate) but they shouldn't be doing so and saying it is the way IAM and/or RoSPA drivers and trainers do it.

The big issue I have, is some trainers/examiners/Advanced Driving Groups, saying they are doing things under the banner of IAM and/or RoSPA when it is things that are contrary to their guidelines and at times could be dangerous. I know this is clearly against their guidelines as I have been at several meetings with IAM & RoSPA Fleet and Team Leader meetings as well as the Regional meetings where that information has been passed down by the head of the Charity side of the organisations as well as the commercial Fleet side of both IAM & RoSPA.

AND as I have also said, when individual or several IAM or RoSPA Groups go their own way and do their own thing it causes problems for the Organisations due to fragmented training styles. There would also be serious H & S issues as well as Insurance Liability issues if something happened out on the road.

I don't see anything other than Nigel's own replies causing a problem for Nigel here and locking a thread, if that is what you decide to do, does no good (in my opinion of course) for the reasoning and debate that should be encouraged on the forum.

Cheers, Brian

#112 19-11-09 23:15:23

The Saint
Verified Member
From: Languedoc
Registered: 09-07-07
Posts: 370

Re: Position for Corners.

Gizmotime has asked twice for the personal comments to cease.

I can only echo her view and I think that any more comments posted along those lines will be deleted.

The thread can continue only if posters look at the OP's thoughts and can reply directly.


Did you think you didn't have to choose it?
That I alone could win or lose it?
In all the places we were hiding love
What was it we were thinking of?

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#113 21-11-09 18:50:07

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

Just to add something further that suggests Brian may not be as up to date as he would like to think he is.  This is an extract from the latest IAM Advanced Driving book (Advanced Driving - the essential guide) and was posted on the Advanced Driving UK site.

In the chapter on cornering (P69) it says:

"... don't cross the white line or hit cat's eyes unless you have excellent visibility throughout the corner".

Can someone who has a latest copy to hand please confirm that this quote is accurate as I don't have a copy of the latest book :oops: - something I must rectify.

Nigel big_smile


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#114 21-11-09 19:55:29

martin_t
Verified Member
Registered: 30-12-06
Posts: 357

Re: Position for Corners.

'(don't cross the white line unless you have the depth and width of vision to support doing so and it is entirely safe).'
...'Never position so far over that it unnerves other road users.'

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#115 21-11-09 22:24:32

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

Then that suggests that the IAM do NOT have the problem with it that Brian suggested.  Which ties in with the feedback I have been receiving from our local examiners from, both, the IAM and RoSPA.

Provided you can see it is safe to do it then I see no reason why anyone should object.  That isn't to say that everyine must do it just that anyone who chooses to should ensure safety isn't compromised.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#116 22-11-09 08:49:24

martin_t
Verified Member
Registered: 30-12-06
Posts: 357

Re: Position for Corners.

At the IAM induction meeting I attended last week, one of the death by powerpoint slides was a drawing of a bend with broken white lines on approach, left deflection arrows, and hatching on the bend surrounded by broken white lines (this had been preceded by the same image but with unbroken white lines on approach and around the hatching).

Question to the eager students: where can you position your vehicle? I piped up for the second pic: 'Anywhere you like'. Response from the front: 'Yep', and we moved on to the next slide.

I had to leave after the death by powerpoint because I had work, so missed any chat afterwards, and the demo drive which I was really looking forward to. Not sure if I'm in for a bit of a talking to next time! Or if they have a particular road in mind for me to drive...

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#117 22-11-09 12:07:05

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

Enjoy your training, Martin.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#118 23-11-09 19:49:25

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi,

Here is question I posed to IAM via their website and the reply is listed below.

'Hi,
I have been a member for a few years and have been involved in teaching for the IAM & RoSPA tests, as well as being a Fleet Trainer. I have also sat the IAM Special Assessment & I would like clarification regarding the following: I am under the impression that the official stance from IAM to their Groups, trainers and observers when dealing with non-emergency service drivers, is not to encourage, recommend or condone 'offsiding' or 'straighlining' of bends merely for better vision and stability (ie not part of pre or planned overtake and not to take up a position of safety or opposing carriageway due to other factors or hazards). I notice this has caused considerable discussion on some online forums and I am looking for your official stance or guidelines on this matter. I know that like any large organisation it can be difficult to ensure consistency on some matters but these appear to be two driving situations that can be quite dangerous for some drivers. I am aware that some Groups, tutors and examiners say it is ok and others say it shouldn't be done. I look forward to your reply, to ensure I am up to date with the IAM Guidelines on such driving in rural roads.'

Reply from Peter Rodger (Ch. Examiner IAM)
Brian,
Below is a copy of the material I wrote in the Summer 2009 IAM Magazine (Advanced Driving) on the issue. Hopefully it will resolve your query.

Left-hand bends

There are some issues in how we use space on the road that are guaranteed to start an argument. How to approach a left hand bend is one of them – I have heard some deeply passionate debates about the best positioning to use. The traditional approach used in the DSA (and before that the DfT) has been a position close to the nearside kerb/verge, away from the actual or potential danger of oncoming traffic. In decades past the approach from those trained in the police service “tradition” was to use as much of the road width as possible to generate vision through the bend – so approaching a left hand bend by the right hand kerb had its proponents. When I trained as an advanced police driver in the 1980’s I was taught that there were problems with being too far out to the right, and we should stay by the white line (or where it would be if there wasn’t one) – but within those constraints maximise the vision available. The problems had apparently arisen with oncoming vehicles reacting to something on their side of the road by moving to the right (out of its path) at the same time as the driver/rider extending their view by being on the “wrong” side of the road moved back – putting both on a collision course. The steady increase in the amount of traffic on the roads had raised the chances of this conflict arising, and vehicle speeds had increased so that time was shorter for the participants to resolve the conflict – so practice had been altered. If, however, positioning for the previous hazard – be it a parked vehicle or whatever else it might be – meant that we were already positioned out there to the right, and we could already see through the exit of the bend – then we stayed there and took advantage of the view gained (subject to all the other factors you would expect – entrances, side roads and so on). There are some police driving schools that do still teach “extending” or “offsiding” as positioning to the right on the approach to a left bend is known. In police driving and riding there is greater advantage to the practice, when the speed limit is not a direct constraint on making progress. The latest editions of (car or bike) Roadcraft do not encourage it. It is extremely difficult to teach, and as our roads become even more crowded there are steadily more chances of there being an oncoming vehicle.

The IAM stance on the practice is that we do not require candidates taking the advanced drivng test to approach a left hand bend on the right hand side of the road. We expect them to approach a left hand bend near the centre line (or equivalent position) – and to “sacrifice” that position by moving to the left if there is reason to do so. If someone does “extend”, and does it well, we will accept that – but we do not encourage it. These things are very difficult to write about – everyone reading this will have some form of mental image of a particular location and set of circumstances, which is probably different to everyone else’s image. Please take what I have written here as guidelines, which need proper interpretation in real life circumstances. Safety is always the primary concern.


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#119 23-11-09 21:41:21

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

....If someone does “extend”, and does it well, we will accept that – but we do not encourage it.....

tongue tongue tongue tongue tongue tongue tongue tongue

Nigel big_smile


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#120 23-11-09 21:51:43

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

No doubt I'm going to be torn to shreds but, hey ho......
I find that article totally shocking. But not surprising in the least, as it merely confirms what I’ve said for years, and why I have always been sceptical of the “Advanced” driving associations.
I find some of their members, observers, testers, (and now that includes their chief examiner) ethos totally alien to my own driving ideals.
Risk, without necessity.


The traditional approach used in the DSA (and before that the DfT) has been a position close to the nearside kerb/verge, away from the actual or potential danger of oncoming traffic.

Well, my versions of The Driving Manual and Essential Skills all state centre of lane.


In decades past the approach from those trained in the police service “tradition” was to use as much of the road width as possible to generate vision through the bend – so approaching a left hand bend by the right hand kerb had its proponents.
When I trained as an advanced police driver in the 1980’s I was taught that there were problems with being too far out to the right, and we should stay by the white line (or where it would be if there wasn’t one) but within those constraints maximise the vision available. The problems had apparently arisen with oncoming vehicles reacting to something on their side of the road by moving to the right (out of its path) at the same time as the driver/rider extending their view by being on the “wrong” side of the road moved back – putting both on a collision course.

This has always been at the heart of my objections against off siding. Not considering how another driver will instinctively react to seeing an oncoming vehicle on their side of the road. Most drivers will steer to where they see a gap and head for it. Probably at the same time as the offsiding driver attempts to return to their side of the carriageway.

The steady increase in the amount of traffic on the roads had raised the chances of this conflict arising, and vehicle speeds had increased so that time was shorter for the participants to resolve the conflict – so practice had been altered.

At least they realised that they were originally training someone to drive in a manner that relied more on chance than skill. Gambling that no one was coming the other way. As traffic increased, the odds weighed heavier on meeting another vehicle.

If, however, positioning for the previous hazard – be it a parked vehicle or whatever else it might be – meant that we were already positioned out there to the right, and we could already see through the exit of the bend – then we stayed there and took advantage of the view gained (subject to all the other factors you would expect – entrances, side roads and so on).
There are some police driving schools that do still teach “extending” or “offsiding” as positioning to the right on the approach to a left bend is known. In police driving and riding there is greater advantage to the practice, when the speed limit is not a direct constraint on making progress.

Notice the inclusion of “speed limit is not a direct constraint”.
This is in agreement with my own belief. That no advantage to the ordinary, law abiding driver by using the practice of offsiding. To gain better progress.
There can be very few, if any bends in this country that a competent driver can take safely from a position over the centre line  and gain any significant advantage compared to remaining on his side of the carriageway in a position central or left of centre. Differences in available vision  by both positions is marginal as the vehicle progresses along the highway.


The latest editions of (car or bike) Roadcraft do not encourage it.
    To it’s shame, Nor does it adequately discourage it.

It is extremely difficult to teach, and as our roads become even more crowded there are steadily more chances of there being an oncoming vehicle.
I refer to my earlier comment regarding chance and skill.
   
The IAM stance on the practice is that we do not require candidates taking the advanced drivng test to approach a left hand bend on the right hand side of the road. We expect them to approach a left hand bend near the centre line (or equivalent position) – and to “sacrifice” that position by moving to the left if there is reason to do so. If someone does “extend”, and does it well, we will accept that

Accepting is as good as encouraging to some people. And must surely lie at the heart of the differences in attitude prevalent within those organisations, and indeed this very thread.
but we do not encourage it.
Nor do you discourage it.

These things are very difficult to write about – everyone reading this will have some form of mental image of a particular location and set of circumstances, which is probably different to everyone else’s image.
Please take what I have written here as guidelines, which need proper interpretation in real life circumstances.

They need more than that, they need a direct statement declaring that the organisation do not accept such driving practices employed under the guide of making best progress, stability etc.

Safety is always the primary concern.
    And yet, some of their members will consider a higher level of risk to be acceptable, compared to others.

The organisation hides behind “individual choice” rather than truly take the lead regarding safe driving practices.
Their reluctance to lay down basic principles of preferred positioning merely serves to continue the split camp approach to acceptable positioning. Those that wish to take risk without necessity, and those that prefer to minimise risk by driving in a more defensive position.

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#121 23-11-09 22:06:41

on board training
Guest

Re: Position for Corners.

Hi,

EXCELLENT reply Kevin and echoes my sentiments almost entirely. I agree with many that the good thing about driving and pushing the boundaries is at times the many grey areas but there are plenty of areas that should not be left open to varied interpretations and should be given more exacting guidance, as you will always get those who will even try to argue about LAWS & RULEs which are cast in stone, never mind areas open to debate.

The remainder of this reply/post was typed before you replied and is not in any way aimed at you (Kevin) nor should anyone take it personally.

I write this with a huge smile as some are very predictable and will still extract small bits of information and go against the main aspect of not encouraging nor expecting but I am more than aware this would be the case...... why am I not surprised?  neutral

There are serious training issues afoot for IAM etc as it is apparent that there are huge variations on this topic across the country as some IAM observers are encouraging it and maybe recommending it which is as I have said all along is against the IAM Guidelines as they don't expect or encourage it. It is out-dated, as has also been said in the reply, by being taught several decades ago but times have changed and if trainers/observers do encourage or recommend it under the guise of IAM training, then as I have previously said they are out of date with what the IAM expect or encourage on their drives.

If on the other hand, as I have also said a trainer/observer wants to introduce it then it should be made clear it is in their name only as they think they know better than IAM and want to use out of date methods for normal non-emergency driver training - my opinions only of course  wink

#122 24-11-09 09:38:49

martin_t
Verified Member
Registered: 30-12-06
Posts: 357

Re: Position for Corners.

Hmm.

I've only skim read this but I now realise (I think) that while I'm happy to be on the 'wrong' side of the road in certain situations, I would never create a situation where I would be 'discovered' in that position by an oncoming road user without a forward space so large that even those with the slowest reaction time (or maybe fastest!) would feel any need to panic, or have any concern at all - although I don't really care if they have time to think I'm a muppet or boy racer. Hence, I wouldn't drive as though  I had flashing blue lights, but would, for instance, ignore a centre line on a winding, open country road. I rarely find myself feeling the need for a millimetre of extra vision that I won't be able to utilise though.

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#123 25-11-09 07:16:00

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Position for Corners.

Interestingly, there is a similar thread on the ADUK forum.  A member on there posted a youtube link which I am repeating here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ailFlbwHUlc.  I'd be interested in what DTT members think.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#124 25-11-09 08:11:15

martin_t
Verified Member
Registered: 30-12-06
Posts: 357

Re: Position for Corners.

It's very interesting to see what he's prepared to do, though we have no feeling for the performance of his car and the camera does lie, so the impression of speed and space and forward vision is misleading.

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#125 25-11-09 10:56:32

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Position for Corners.

I've only watched it once.

I'd need hours to be able to make indepth, objective comments of the drive with my typing skills and speed.  LOL.

It's difficult to know what the driver can see, feel and hear from a video such as this, has he view over walls? etc

However, overtaking approaching dead ground, accelerating towards a sheep that barely crosses the centre of the road, accelerating in the face of another vehicle that has a sheep on its side with limited space for the oncoming drivers escape route should the sheep bolt if it chose to, several offsiding examples to bends on brows, a couple of examples of wheels being on wet white paint during bends, plus other situations where positional risk is used without neccessity.....All on a damp road.

Speeds are unclear, although car balance appears to be maintained, steering is smooth and gas control is used competantly.
The driver appears to be driving well within his limits and his vehicles, although some of his positional choices are uneccassary, which is increasing risk, without a valid purpose.

There are 1 or 2 examples where central to road position is used appropriately, but IMHO, extended too far into the approach to bends, brows and dips.

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