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#1 04-10-09 14:43:49

ADI Education
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From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
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Turning right minor to major

I am interested to find out peoples views on training guidance that is given by many ADI's and ADI trainers regarding emerging right from a minor road onto a major road.
It appears that in general pupils' are taught to keep their wheels straight until level with the centre of the new the road before turning. In my opinion this is not how pupils' should be taught and can prove detrimental to vision, progress and control as the the turn is unnecessarily exaggerated.
Setting such black and white guidance also takes away the thought process from the pupil who should be encouraged to plan their approach and emerge from junctions and other hazards safely and using a bit of common sense to suit the circumstances.
The usual argument of you spending longer time on the opposite side of the road putting you into possible conflict with the opposing traffic is flawed as you are not going to emerge into there path anyway if you have taken effective observations.
Your views would be appreciated 


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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04-10-09 14:43:49

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Re: Turning right minor to major



#2 04-10-09 15:01:47

keith williams
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From: Bangor, Northern Ireland
Registered: 28-08-06
Posts: 458

Re: Turning right minor to major

I wouldn't teach that. Their wheels should be straight until they've actually started to emerge  but once they're moving and they're over the white line then go for it. They definitely should be straight until they're past the give way line otherwise you're over the centre white line or else too close to the left

I didn't realise people taught it the way you're talking about. Can't see it working very well on a narrow road.

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#3 04-10-09 15:44:00

nigel
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From: surrey
Registered: 01-12-06
Posts: 183

Re: Turning right minor to major

all i would insist is that they do not cut the corner (the backward F ) as they emerge , what happens where on that princaple if you have a vehicle parked opposite your junction then.


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Fleet trainer, Iam ,Rospa (gold) Tutor. DIAmond Advanced/

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#4 04-10-09 16:16:41

The Saint
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From: Languedoc
Registered: 09-07-07
Posts: 370

Re: Turning right minor to major

I would agree with Keith and Nigel.

As a matter of interest, how have you arrived at the opinion that......


"in general pupils' are taught to keep their wheels straight until level with the centre of the new the road before turning."


In my experience, that has never been a method used by any ADI that I know.


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That I alone could win or lose it?
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#5 04-10-09 17:28:47

ADI Education
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From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
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Re: Turning right minor to major

As an examiner I came across this a lot and still do when working with PDI's from other training bodies.Without mentioning names I am aware that a number of training establishments that teach this method (not all local) and I am frequently hearing this advice given, hence my terminology  'in general'.   


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#6 04-10-09 18:23:02

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
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Re: Turning right minor to major

Heard it many times, pure instructor college rubbish.


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#7 04-10-09 18:58:17

ADI Education
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From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
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Re: Turning right minor to major

More than just Instructor College, but glad you also think it is rubbish Hector


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#8 05-10-09 07:07:45

Lynne
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From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: Turning right minor to major

This sounds familiar to me too and I didn't train through TIC!!  In my early days before I knew better I taught this  :oops: (well this how I was taught to teach it) I can't remember what happened or what I read when the penny dropped it was rubbish (seeing learners struggle with the exaggerated turn didn't help).  I never gave it much thought afterwards and of course it's no help when cars are parked on the major at the top of the T junction.

All I can think of is I must have read it on the B$M training documents ...



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#9 05-10-09 22:11:26

The Saint
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From: Languedoc
Registered: 09-07-07
Posts: 370

Re: Turning right minor to major

I did all my training with TIC. I was lucky in that I had a good trainer.

He didn't teach me that method and I'm glad he didn't! Can't see how it would work as general rule.

Which makes me think. How much freedom are their instructors allowed in teaching their PDI's? Do they have to toe the party line on everything or do they have a degree of flexibilty! Certainly my trainer taught me in what I consider to be a responsible way and I still use the methods he used when training me.

With the benefit of several years as an ADI and much discussion with other trainers, I have not found any serious flaws in his methods.

So did the TIC get it right, or was he just good at his job despite any possible interference from his supervisor?

Interesting point!

Any ex TIC trainers out there who would care to clarify?


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#10 06-10-09 00:45:35

Aspyre
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Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Turning right minor to major

may be TIC dont teach it that way quite as much as people who hate TIC would like to beleive Saint??

It seems funny TIC allegedley teach it like this according to some and yet you have proof to the contrary and others have confirmed it isnt just TIC.. More likely that just as any trainer can state this is how things must be done..... TIC trainers come from the same wide range of trainer stock and do things as it suits them as individuals.

like most things it often comes down to whether some thing works in practice.. like the 5 point or 360 degree checks....... some of us hate teaching it that way but it works for others and so isnt actually wrong??

Like ADI Education says if you have taken effective observations what does it matter as long as you arent turning grotesquely early?? There are some situation where you really do want to leave turning late..... where another car could be on your right side and other times when turning early is safer.. it depends thats all.

The only wrong way is stating things as black or white without thinking about the situation in hand.

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#11 07-10-09 19:33:23

Mars
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Registered: 01-06-08
Posts: 42
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Re: Turning right minor to major

I believe this (wheels straight till over the center line) was taught by BSM some time ago and was often, I believe, referred to by examiners as a 'BSM turn'.  Its certainly what I was taught to teach but have never applied it as it doesnt make sence, on a wide road one may be well over the center before turning, on a narrow or obstructed road then common sence must apply.

An example of good sounding theory untill put into practical use...bit like Pull Push steering !!!   Oops   

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#12 08-10-09 06:23:52

ADI Education
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From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
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Re: Turning right minor to major

What's the problem with pull push steering????


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#13 08-10-09 20:56:46

Mars
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Registered: 01-06-08
Posts: 42
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Re: Turning right minor to major

What's the problem with pull push steering????

Well in my opinion it is inefficient, clumsy, not recommended for high speeds or low speed manouvering (Police Driving Manual), slavishly followed by a lot of ADIs even to the extent of making experienced drivers follow it when their steering is perfectly accurate already.   A little known fact is also that Hand over Hand steering is NOT marked on driving tests, even on an ADI Part 2 test. 

In my opinion it should be offered as a steering method to anyone who is being trained, offered along with Hand over Hand and the trainee be told use whichever suits.   

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#14 08-10-09 22:59:56

Aspyre
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Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Turning right minor to major

the problem you got though is when a total beginner is allowed to do what ever they want they usually end up doing it wrong in the sense that it is definitely not in control.

pull-push puts structure to the process whereas hand over hand can cause erratic steering in a beginner when they dont know how much or how little to steer.

if an experienced learner crosses there hands then it doesnt matter if they are in control..... but a beginner usually isnt.

Hand over hand is fine for low speed quick steering (The Essential Skills says that - not every thing the Police do is necessarilly right just because its the Police..... they still have crashes).

Theres a big danger people try to deliberately not teach pull-push because they dont understand the situation as well as they think they do.. It definitely isn't wrong or weak to use it in learners who dont have a suitable technique yet.

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#15 09-10-09 04:56:38

ADI Education
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From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
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Re: Turning right minor to major

We appear to have gone off the original subject a little here. Oh well !!! 
I definitely advocate using the pull push steering method what ever standard or experience a driver has. Police drivers are trained to use this method because it gives the best control. Cornering at high speeds can get very exiting if the steering wheel is not operated in anyway but very smoothly, any sudden movement or slight oversteer will have an impact on the vehicle handling, so the drivers smooth and accurate use of the  steering wheel is very important.
A lot of instructors refer to this method as push pull which is incorrect. The first movement of the wheel should always be a pull in the direction of steer (this action is a more natural and controlled movement for the driver) mirror imaged by the trailing hand that continues with the push if required.
The principles and reasoning behind using this technique still apply to other drivers including novices. Smooth use of all the controls including the steering wheel alongside an appreciated and understanding of vehicle stability principles, should be taught from day one. It is too late when they have wrapped their car around a tree or lampost having just passed their test.
Rotational steering(hand over hand) is fine at low speeds where a lot of steering is required and is probably the most effective method for those circumstances.   


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#16 11-10-09 18:41:56

Mars
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Registered: 01-06-08
Posts: 42
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Re: Turning right minor to major

Well having read those two replies re steering i find a lot of mantra chanting.  This stuff regarding smoothness and control is trotted out time and time again,  how about something solid which is not good about hand over hand.  Such as, you catch your fingers in the wheel, statistics about loss of control directly resulting from hand over hand, airbags expanding and catching hands crossed  in front of face etc.
Hand over hand is no more difficult for a beginner than pull push and they can always be offered the choice.......I guarantee few will choose pull push !!

I had a big correspondence with the Asst Chief examiner a few years ago about this....the only solid justification he could come up with was the air bag one, he had a small point I conceeded: but there is a reply to it.

The Police Driving Manual does (last time I looked) advise hand over hand for fast driving......It doesnt take a genius to work out why.    And....why isnt it marked on ANY DSA driving test, could it be that they realise it realy doesnt do any harm ??

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#17 11-10-09 20:39:39

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Turning right minor to major

Well you could say there is a mantra being chanted by some of those who dont like pull-push.

Fact of the matter is if the steering is in control they can do it stark naked if they want to.. Hand over hand.. Pull-push.. Who cares?? Not the DSA.. Not Me.

The Essential Skills mentions hand over hand for fast steering at low speeds so lets not lionise the Police on that to make hand over hand seem more important.

I cant see what point is being argued.. I cant remmeber the last time hand over hand was marked as a fault if steering is in control.. All that seems to have happened is somebody in the DIA has noticed a change of wording in DE guidance notes and has made an editorial mountain out of a molehill..... and other people have run ahead with it without realising.

I have pupils crossing their hands when steering a lot of the time.. The only time I change it is when they keep their hands fixed and understeer...... but my preference with absolute beginners is to get them to steer using pull-push.. Aftert that they can develop whatever style they want as long as they dont hit any trees or other wise give me a coronary.

Someone elses preference might be hand over hand.. Good luck to them.. They arent wrong any more than I am.

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#18 12-10-09 04:19:45

ADI Education
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From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Turning right minor to major

Just because the DSA do not assess the technique does not mean that best practice should not be taught. There are many other areas of driving e.g. dry steering, how gear lever is held, use of mirrors etc. that are only assessed when they actually cause a problem; should we not bother teaching best practice in other areas as well????


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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#19 12-10-09 08:02:09

ADI Education
Verified Member
From: Lincolnshire
Registered: 31-08-09
Posts: 351
Website

Re: Turning right minor to major

Mars I think you are confusing fast driving with fast steering. Rotational steering is used at slow speed e.g. when manoeuvring where a lot of steering is quickly required. Pull/push is used at high speed where smoothness and accuracy are absolutely essential.


I am a former Police Driving Instructor and Ex DSA ADI examiner. My qualifications include: BTEC Level 4 Police Driving Skills, BTEC Level 3 in Teaching Advanced driving, NVQ A1 Assessors awrard, DIAmond advanced test, RoSPA gold, Cardington A. I am a grade 6 DSA Instructor, fleet trained and a Class 1 Police Driver. www.janeclarkedrivinginstructortraining.co.uk

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