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#26 05-08-09 06:30:12

Ttomttom
Member
Registered: 01-08-09
Posts: 56

Re: The right hand lane

Strong words Nigel,

Can you confirm that this is bull. Please.......

It is very, very easy to dismiss me, it is very easy to accuse me of all sorts, but at the end of the day the figures are there or more to the point NOT.

Perhaps they are kept hidden because it is not in the public interest to reveal. Perhaps nobody has ever investigated the why's and wherefore's   roll  roll

I have opened up a whole can of worms that can be easily dismissed as bull, if you choose to because you feel safer for it.

Look for statistics on convictions for dangerous driving, or wreckless driving and look at sentencing.
Look at convictions for revenue raising offences.

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05-08-09 06:30:12

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Re: The right hand lane



#27 05-08-09 06:43:35

Ttomttom
Member
Registered: 01-08-09
Posts: 56

Re: The right hand lane

Maybe I am coming across as a police hater and someone who causes anarchy at every turn, but this could not be further from the truth.

What I am saying is....... It is much easier for the police to get a conviction from young naive drivers than it is from a foreign lorry driver.

If a drunk driver is arrested at the scene, a conviction follows. It is an easy nick a conviction is another stat shown in good light.

If you actually look at what the stats are then a totally different picture emerges.

The police will tell you road safety has been improved, the local council will back it up but go to the local a&e and a totally different picture emerges. Look at the attendance rate by emergency services and a different picture emerges.

Keep an open mind.

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#28 05-08-09 08:23:53

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,297

Re: The right hand lane

Hi
Admittedly if you watch "Traffic Cops" you will see many serious traffic offences where people have been arrested yet there few or low grade convictions.

But Tt-tt is aiming at the wrong target.
It is the CPS who decide whether to prosecute not the police.
So unless it is a case of a fixed penalty offence, which is absolutely ironclad, it is all down to whether the solicitors at CPS think they can get a conviction.

Incidently foriegn (European) drivers are now being issued with ticketss and being prosecuted because they now have a cross border points agreement.

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#29 05-08-09 10:54:47

Ttomttom
Member
Registered: 01-08-09
Posts: 56

Re: The right hand lane

big_smile I knew i would get there in the end, Thank you Pegasus you have said in one paragraph what i have been trying to say for the whole thread. big_smile

A fixed penalty notice is easily given, where-as the cps have actually got to spend some money to get a conviction.

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#30 05-08-09 11:43:28

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: The right hand lane

I don't have a hidden agenda, but what I am saying is that the teenager now is the same as the teenager 5 years ago.

The police now, are not as forgiving as they were 5 years ago and maybe they do not tolerate anything from a young inexperienced driver. Where as 5 years ago they might of said oi oi that was a bit naughty....... NOW they will go for the jugular because it is easier and it helps quota's.

The insurance companies have responded by raising insurance and pricing them off the road. Teenagers have responded by taking a chance with no insurance, the police have responded by doing more checks on teenagers.

Ever decreasing circles yikes

If the Police are not as forgiving with 17 to 20 year old drivers these days, it is probably because the accident statistics for the 17 to 20 year old age group must surely dictate that this age group is where Police should rightly be prioritising their time.
If the Police 'targeted' middle aged drivers rather than young drivers, I agree that conviction rates would fall but only because middle aged drivers are safer and by and large commit less offences and are more law abiding.

Insurance companies base their premiums on risk, which has little to do with the Police 'targeting' younger drivers with over zealous convictions which force young drivers insurance premiums up. A 48 year old driver may have many years of accident free motoring and is a low risk and low insurance premium wheras a 17 year old is an unknown quantity and based on claims for that age group is high risk with consequent high insurance premiums.

o 1 in 5 drivers crash within their first year of driving
o 1 in 3 male drivers aged between 17 and 20 years crash in the first two years after passing their test.
o An 18 year old driver is more than three times as likely to be involved in a crash as a 48 year old driver.


www.midasbustraining.webs.com
Midas Minibus Driver Assessor Trainer & Passenger Assistant Trainer
DVSA Fleet Registered Trainer

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#31 05-08-09 13:21:15

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,297

Re: The right hand lane

Hi
Damn, I was trying to show him the correct target and then he thinks I'm agreeing with him in knocking the police.

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#32 05-08-09 17:21:50

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: The right hand lane

Pegasus, I'm starting to doubt whether it is worth discussing this with tt, he appears to be so down on the Police he wont listen to anything else.

TT you say we should come out with stats to prove you are wrong, how about you coming out with facts to prove you aren't talking *****!.  remember this country still believes in the 'innocent until proven guilty'.  I would rather give the Police the benefit of the doubt until someone comes out with the proof that they are all corrupt and are only targeting the youngsters.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#33 05-08-09 17:28:51

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: The right hand lane

Hi
Admittedly if you watch "Traffic Cops" you will see many serious traffic offences where people have been arrested yet there few or low grade convictions.

But Tt-tt is aiming at the wrong target.
It is the CPS who decide whether to prosecute not the police.
So unless it is a case of a fixed penalty offence, which is absolutely ironclad, it is all down to whether the solicitors at CPS think they can get a conviction.

Incidently foriegn (European) drivers are now being issued with ticketss and being prosecuted because they now have a cross border points agreement.

Only certain countries within the EEC, (and some dependent states) have signed up to the cross border penalty scheme.

I'll check out the DVLA website for a list as I seem to recall it appeared on there a few months ago.

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#34 05-08-09 17:43:31

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: The right hand lane

Not found the list of conutries in the exchange scheme yet, but did find this page interesting.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Nl1/Newsroom/DG_177085

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#35 05-08-09 20:38:41

robcooling
Verified Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 02-04-09
Posts: 1,451
Website

Re: The right hand lane

remember this country still believes in the 'innocent until proven guilty'.  I would rather give the Police the benefit of the doubt until someone comes out with the proof that they are all corrupt and are only targeting the youngsters.[/qoute]

Couldn't agree more, good positive attitudes! Can't stand moaning.


Rob

http://www.appledriving.co.uk - Driving Lessons in Nottingham

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#36 05-08-09 21:31:50

Ttomttom
Member
Registered: 01-08-09
Posts: 56

Re: The right hand lane

Hi Pegasus, I know you are not agreeing with me, sorry I did not mean to imply that you were.

My point was that a young person will surrender their license when requested and will accept a pcn at the scene, the teens that won't accept the pcn are the ones that should be getting them and they are the ones that CPS will not spend the money to prosecute.

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#37 06-08-09 04:57:39

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: The right hand lane

....My point was that a young person will surrender their license when requested and will accept a pcn at the scene, the teens that won't accept the pcn are the ones that should be getting them and they are the ones that CPS will not spend the money to prosecute.

You mean there is a choice whether to accept the pcn?  I wasn't aware of that!  Or is this more *****!?

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#38 06-08-09 07:06:23

Ttomttom
Member
Registered: 01-08-09
Posts: 56

Re: The right hand lane

Hi Nigel, you really are hard work to talk to.

Is it a legal requirement to surrender your license on request, even if the police tell you that they are taking it?----------------- The answer is NO

Is it a legal requirement to accept a pcn or do you have the option of going to a magistrates court? -------------- The answer is you can opt for a magistrates court?

Is it a legal requirement to sign a pcn? -------- The answer is NO

I believe you stated earlier that in this country "we are innocent until proven guilty", but now you ask "Is there a choice whether to accept a pcn"

I am beginning to wonder if it is worth debating with you because you are so determined to prove me wrong, you have lost sight of an otherwise healthy debate. big_smile

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#39 06-08-09 07:51:01

RobC
Verified Member
From: Nr Ormskirk Lancs
Registered: 28-01-09
Posts: 765
Website

Re: The right hand lane

ttom

Our individual perceptions of the Police depend on our own personal experiences however I think we have to accept that the Police prioritise their duties according to accident and crime statistics.

If we accept that young drivers are 'targeted' by the Police because of high accident statistics and that young drivers car insurance is expensive because of car accidents and insurance claims, it seems to me that a reduction in accidents and insurance claims by young drvers is the way forward.

This is where schemes like Pass Plus come in. Does anyone know what percentage of young drivers take Pass Plus or have additional training after passing their test?


www.midasbustraining.webs.com
Midas Minibus Driver Assessor Trainer & Passenger Assistant Trainer
DVSA Fleet Registered Trainer

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#40 06-08-09 08:23:45

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: The right hand lane

Think your getting your acronyms mixed up.

PCN or Penalty Charge Notice is mainly for parking offences, see here
http://www.nopenaltypoints.co.uk/Penalt … otice.html

FPN or Fixed Penalty Notice is for dealing with minor traffic offences, see here
http://www.nopenaltypoints.co.uk/FixedP … otice.html


www.selbydriving.co.uk

12.gif

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy
state of things.”
~ Winston Churchill

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#41 07-08-09 04:34:52

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: The right hand lane

Hi Nigel, you really are hard work to talk to.

Me?  Are you sure it's me that is hard work?  You sure it's not you?  You're the one who is being persistant with teh anti-Police rant!  And it is a rant because you refuse to support your conjecture wth any evidence!

Is it a legal requirement to surrender your license on request, even if the police tell you that they are taking it?----------------- The answer is NO

Is it a legal requirement to accept a pcn or do you have the option of going to a magistrates court? -------------- The answer is you can opt for a magistrates court?

and, as can be seen from the link that Tony posted, the choice of going to court is still there after the FPN is accepted.  This is, apparently, explained on the back of the fpn so this information isn't being witheld from the individual, nor is it written in special ink that can only be read by drivers over 25.  So, if a young driver takes teh trouble to read this information, they are as informed as the rest of us!   So no discrimination on age there!

Is it a legal requirement to sign a pcn? -------- The answer is NO

I believe you stated earlier that in this country "we are innocent until proven guilty", but now you ask "Is there a choice whether to accept a pcn"

I am beginning to wonder if it is worth debating with you because you are so determined to prove me wrong, you have lost sight of an otherwise healthy debate. big_smile

A very biased rant, with no evidence offered to back it up, against teh Police is healthy?  Yeah!  Of course it is!

As I say, you are trying to make us all believe the Police are corrupt by targeting young drivers yet you refuse of offer any evidence to support it - and you know suggest that I am being hard work!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#42 07-08-09 06:25:18

Ttomttom
Member
Registered: 01-08-09
Posts: 56

Re: The right hand lane

Hi Nigel,

Chill out, calm down and look at what I have written. I realise that you are asking me to provide documented evidence and statistical fact to back up everything that i have written.

At this time I am not prepared to do that.......... for two reasons.

This is the point where you can say ha !!!!!!!! ha you have won the argument because, but don't do that bear with me please.

1st reason is this isn't a court of law.
2nd reason is most of these facts that I have stated are no doubt hidden behind spin. (Depending on how the figures are represented depends on how they are read)

I am not an anarchist and I do actively support the police. (fund raising and hospitality)

This is a hypothetical situation.
Teenager on mobile phone gets pulled over and is told to surrender his license and sign fpn. So teenager does this.
Middle aged on mobile phone man gets pulled over and is told to surrender license and sign fpn.
Middle aged man says no.

Middle aged man does not get prosecuted because to put two coppers in court for the day plus all the additional costs the cps has decided they won't pursue it.

Now this has been going on for YEARS, so we have got to the stage where:
What is the point of issuing an FPN to a middle aged man when community relations and a little bit of common sense dictates that just by pulling him over has served the purpose.

I hope this has given a portrayal of "STATS" and also how easy it is to produce "Stats" that show teens are worse drivers.

Let me give you something else to think about. TWO NEW Drivers have a crash one is middle aged and one is a teenager. How do you know the middle aged driver has just passed their test.

In 5 years insuring a teenage driver has trebled, TREBLED!!!!!!!!!! I don't believe that the teenage driver is any different now, to what they were five years ago. I do believe that the way information is collected, the way "stats" are portrayed is very, very different. These "stats" are used to form the way policing is operated.

I am not anti police, I am against bashing the teenager because they are easier.

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#43 07-08-09 18:32:32

pegasus
Verified Member
From: north west
Registered: 25-02-05
Posts: 3,297

Re: The right hand lane

hi

Let me give you something else to think about. TWO NEW Drivers have a crash one is middle aged and one is a teenager. How do you know the middle aged driver has just passed their test.

Easy, you look at their licence.

The number of young inexperienced drivers now making large value claims is vastly greater than it used to be.
The are no longer content to drive vehicles on TPFT only until they have built up some NCB because they are now driving higher value and newer (comparitively) vehicles.

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#44 07-08-09 19:34:24

Ttomttom
Member
Registered: 01-08-09
Posts: 56

Re: The right hand lane

ttom

This is where schemes like Pass Plus come in. Does anyone know what percentage of young drivers take Pass Plus or have additional training after passing their test?

I don't know because memory is sketchy but isn't it something abhorrant like 14%

hi
The number of young inexperienced drivers now making large value claims is vastly greater than it used to be.
The are no longer content to drive vehicles on TPFT only until they have built up some NCB because they are now driving higher value and newer (comparitively) vehicles.

Two valid points and well made. I don't want to give up my "crusade" just yet, I would think that a lot of instructors are the same as me and teach friends of pupils and friends of friends so you do hear if any of your old pupils have got themselves into trouble either with the police or on the road.

Do you personally think that your teenagers are a menace on our roads?

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#45 07-08-09 19:43:49

Ttomttom
Member
Registered: 01-08-09
Posts: 56

Re: The right hand lane

Bit of a loaded question that one.

I concede, maybe I am on to much of a one man crusade and have portrayed the police in a bad light. It was not my intention to do that.

Apologies to the author of this post, I didn't mean to hijack it.

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#46 07-08-09 19:49:37

evondoll
Verified Member
From: Glasgow
Registered: 27-01-09
Posts: 204
Website

Re: The right hand lane

This is a hypothetical situation.
Teenager on mobile phone gets pulled over and is told to surrender his license and sign fpn. So teenager does this.
Middle aged on mobile phone man gets pulled over and is told to surrender license and sign fpn.
Middle aged man says no.

Middle aged man does not get prosecuted because to put two coppers in court for the day plus all the additional costs the cps has decided they won't pursue it.

Now this has been going on for YEARS, so we have got to the stage where:
What is the point of issuing an FPN to a middle aged man when community relations and a little bit of common sense dictates that just by pulling him over has served the purpose.

I hope this has given a portrayal of "STATS" and also how easy it is to produce "Stats" that show teens are worse drivers.

Let me give you something else to think about. TWO NEW Drivers have a crash one is middle aged and one is a teenager. How do you know the middle aged driver has just passed their test.

In 5 years insuring a teenage driver has trebled, TREBLED!!!!!!!!!! I don't believe that the teenage driver is any different now, to what they were five years ago. I do believe that the way information is collected, the way "stats" are portrayed is very, very different. These "stats" are used to form the way policing is operated.

I am not anti police, I am against bashing the teenager because they are easier.

I had to read your post a couple of times to see if there was any clues as to you being a wind up merchant...please dont take that too harsh, its not ment that way!

I still don't understand why you feel the police pick on teenagers. And as you have stated you have no evidence to back up what you say. I'm not saying your wrong here either...just that there is no evidence either way (or none that you can provide and none that I have found)......but then that goes for what I belive, in that the police don't pick on younger drivers.

At the moment we are all arguing about what we Belive....evidence is needed tho before any of us can say one way or another!

Evon x

p.s. I'm all for the police stopping young ones still if they are doing ANYTHING wrong.

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#47 08-08-09 04:11:57

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: The right hand lane

....This is a hypothetical situation.
Teenager on mobile phone gets pulled over and is told to surrender his license and sign fpn. So teenager does this.
Middle aged on mobile phone man gets pulled over and is told to surrender license and sign fpn.
Middle aged man says no.

Middle aged man does not get prosecuted because to put two coppers in court for the day plus all the additional costs the cps has decided they won't pursue it.....

OK, So the Police haven't acted any differently so this hypothetical part doesn't support your rant in the slightest so the Police haven't targeted the youngster in the slightest.  As has been shown from the eaqrlier link anyone who accepts teh fpn can still elect to go to court within so many days.  The court route hasn't been closed.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#48 08-08-09 08:39:00

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: The right hand lane

Speak to any traffic cop and he will tell you that he WILL pay attention to drivers of a certaina age, driving certain vehicles at certain times of the day or night and with certain number of passengers.  It's called profiling. He knows from experience of the types of drivers and vehicles that are likely to be offending in some way.

This may not be just aimed at younger drivers, nor indeed at ethnicity.

One cop told me that he has a lot of "success" with merc and porsche drivers speeding along a certain road leading away from a business centre in London. their ages are typically 30 - 50. He also "targets" young males drivers in french cars and female drivers between 25 and 35 in people carriers and 4x4's ast certain times of the day. He also observed vans driven by the over 50's.

He didnt mean he stopped everyone he saw that fitted his profiles, but he did pay them attention for a distance.

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#49 08-08-09 09:32:53

Ttomttom
Member
Registered: 01-08-09
Posts: 56

Re: The right hand lane

Ttomttom wrote:

....This is a hypothetical situation.
Teenager on mobile phone gets pulled over and is told to surrender his license and sign fpn. So teenager does this.
Middle aged on mobile phone man gets pulled over and is told to surrender license and sign fpn.
Middle aged man says no.

Middle aged man does not get prosecuted because to put two coppers in court for the day plus all the additional costs the cps has decided they won't pursue it.....

OK, So the Police haven't acted any differently so this hypothetical part doesn't support your rant in the slightest so the Police haven't targeted the youngster in the slightest.  As has been shown from the eaqrlier link anyone who accepts teh fpn can still elect to go to court within so many days.  The court route hasn't been closed.

Nigel

I have given up my "Crusade"..... It was pointed out earlier in the thread that we work from personal experience, the point I was trying to establish was have any of you heard from your previous pupils with regard to being stopped. Do any of you hear about previous pupils?

If my previous pupils get stopped (the ones that I hear about) their license is taken by the police. (I'm not there so I don't know) I am being told that they are being treated like criminals and they feel really intimidated. (I'm not there so i don't know) I talk to other instructors and they have said "funny you should say that because".

I personally think the amount of times that young ones get their license taken away at the scene and the manner in which it is taken away is totally disproportionate to what could be concieved as average.

How many of you instructors get phone calls from past pupils asking advice? 1 year, 2 year old past pupils? A young guy I taught phoned me up and said a woman had run into the back of him and didn't want to go through the insurance so if he give her £500 she would forget it. There was no damage to his car apart from scratches. This was two years after he passed, I phoned this woman and asked for her insurance details and told her we would let the insurance company sort it out. She went round to my pupils house and pleaded with him not to put it through insurance.

Four Teenage girls in prom dresses coming home from prom, they were made to get out of the car and stand by the roadside for anything up to 20 mins in the freezing cold. (These are extreme examples of what i am talking about)

I think the teens are all tarred with the same brush and this is just sooooooooo not right. I am not claiming that all teens are angels what I am saying is I, ME, MYSELF think that if a few questions are asked teens will get a much fairer representation. Perhaps by telling them not to surrender their license and telling them to go to police stn after, the police might just relax their grip a little.

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#50 08-08-09 15:47:17

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: The right hand lane

Oh for f***s sake give over!  You're like a broken record!  On and on and on, repeating teh same old crap!

You carry on, I'm not contributing to this thread any more!  Byeeeee

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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