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#1 04-05-09 11:20:23

Kev D
Verified Member
From: Cheshire
Registered: 25-06-06
Posts: 306

Who didn't see this coming then???

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/ … e-crashes/

I just hope that if anyone here is going for their new bike test they are well prepared and ready for it in all weather.


Police Driver Trainer
Grade 6 ADI - May 2013

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04-05-09 11:20:23

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Re: Who didn't see this coming then???




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#2 04-05-09 12:00:07

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Who didn't see this coming then???

Is it that the circuit is too small, or is it that the candidates were not upto test standard in the first place?

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#3 04-05-09 12:29:55

adi
Verified Member
From: shropshire
Registered: 28-02-04
Posts: 1,231
Website

Re: Who didn't see this coming then???

A few months ago i was talking to a motorcycle trainer who said that some bikes will find it very difficult to attain enough speed in the space they have available, i wonder if that is the reason the one guy failed for not reaching 50.

As for the crashes, then i suppose only time will tell!

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#4 04-05-09 12:34:20

Kev D
Verified Member
From: Cheshire
Registered: 25-06-06
Posts: 306

Re: Who didn't see this coming then???

Hi Kev,

the honest answer is, I don't know, it could be either or both.  I think it is potentially quite a complex problem and for each point I am going to raise now, there is lots of pro's and con's for each but I won't be exploring them all on this post - just food for thought.


There will certainly be candidates who are unprepared either because of their own fault or their trainers fault.

Lack of suitable training areas to practice these manoeuvres prior to test (Some DSA test centres have allowed training to take place on their test area which is a thoroughly decent gesture but is not practicable for all candidates to spend time there prior to test).

The criteria is the same in wet/dry conditions.

Dropped bikes causing damage to the surface rendering it unsuitable or unsafe for following tests.

Health & Safety of the candidates potentially put at risk.


Many people (myself included) said all through the early stages of introducing this test that it would be fraught with risk of injury and it appears that the early indications may confirm these fears, however - it may turn out that trainers become more familiar with the new test and are able to prepare their candidates fully for the exercises - time will tell.

As I said, just some food for thought and there are many more considerations not mentioned above.

Kev D


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Grade 6 ADI - May 2013

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#5 04-05-09 13:30:04

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: Who didn't see this coming then???

Is there is clause anywere that stops the candidate from suing the DSA if they get injured carrying this out in weather that makes the manouvre more risky?  I can see PGR Bloomer having a field day  :?

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#6 04-05-09 14:41:48

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Who didn't see this coming then???

It is the riders responsibility to control his own vehicle in a safe manner.
If the rider is not capable of riding safely and keeping the tyres on the tarmac, I fail to seehow the DSA is to blame.

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#7 04-05-09 15:39:57

RJHGT
Verified Member
From: Congleton, Cheshire
Registered: 23-01-08
Posts: 184
Website

Re: Who didn't see this coming then???

Pass rates will be lower compared to pre 27th April 2009.
The new test Module 1 is more demanding, and candidates will need to be at a higher skill level to what we have been used to!
Slow manouvres, and higher speed manouvres! are the content.
There is no flexibility given weather conditions either, hence Monday's incidents? Perhaps the DSA will be stricter as to cancellations given weather conditions in the future?
The course is quite simple, if you are experienced enough to complete it!
More training/experience will be required to pass.


Driver & Rider Training Centre www.rjhgroup.co.uk ADI Approved Driving Instructor Grade 5 (Car) DAS Direct Access Scheme Instructor (Motorcycle) DSA Driving Standards Agency- ATB Authorised Training Body (Motorcycle) RPMT Register of Post-test Motorcycle Trainer

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#8 08-05-09 14:58:08

RJHGT
Verified Member
From: Congleton, Cheshire
Registered: 23-01-08
Posts: 184
Website

Re: Who didn't see this coming then???

This is from the latest Newsletter this week!!

MODULE 1 INCIDENTS - WHY THEY HAVE BEEN OCCURRING
During the first day of the new motorcycle test there were four incidents where riders unfortunately lost control and fell from theirmotorcycle. One candidate sustained a broken arm and the remaining three suffered no apparent injury.
Each of these riders made the same mistake; they braked heavily whilst steering to carry out the avoidance exercise. – Unfortunately the
outcome of that kind of rider reaction is inevitable and on the open road is one of the main causes of crashes, serious injury and death.
The principle reason behind the introduction of the avoidance exercise stems from European-wide research into crashes involving other vehicles pulling out into the path of motorcycles.
This research provided clear evidence that many of the resultant deaths and serious injury could have been avoided had the rider been trained to take the correct avoiding action.
The new motorcycle test is intended to raise the standard of riding ability of motorcyclists and will make a significant contribution to road and rider safety but it is essential that candidates are well prepared.
Research & development Extensive research and development was carried out in the construction of the new motorcycle test including trials using a large number of volunteer riders with varying skill levels ranging from complete novice to expert riders.
During the development we worked closely with, and sought the advice of Health and Safety, and we continued our policy of consulting with
and inviting input from key stakeholders such as: the Motorcycle Rider Training Industry, Motorcycle Industry Association, RoSPA, IAM, BSM, the Metropolitan Police Motorcycle Training School, BikeSafe (National), BikeSafe (London), MAG (Motorcycle Action Group), BMF (British
Motorcycle Federation) and the National Association of Disabled Bikers.
Trialling the test DSA has been conducting trials to ensure the safety and practicality of actual test delivery since October 2005.
This has involved more than 300 volunteer motorcyclists experiencing the test in varying weather conditions.
The new manoeuvres are designed to replicate some of the high risk areas encountered by motorcyclists in the safer environment of
the off-road area.
A modular, structured approach The Agency supports a modular, structured approach to training over a period of time.
This approach, meeting with a trainees learning ability, should enable them to develop and subsequently demonstrate the appropriate
skills required to be safe.
A lack of competence will inevitably put riders at high risk of losing control during the set exercise so they should not attempt the test
before they and/or their instructor are absolutely confident that they have received sufficient training and practice.


Driver & Rider Training Centre www.rjhgroup.co.uk ADI Approved Driving Instructor Grade 5 (Car) DAS Direct Access Scheme Instructor (Motorcycle) DSA Driving Standards Agency- ATB Authorised Training Body (Motorcycle) RPMT Register of Post-test Motorcycle Trainer

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#9 08-05-09 16:19:52

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Who didn't see this coming then???

Seems they agree with my previous post. i.e. the candidate failed to exercise adequate control, and that they are not accepting any responsibility for riders dropping their bikes.

Quite right too.

However,
They continue to maintain the test is safe and appropriate, something the biker press question.

What do the bike trainers of the forum think about the new test, in particular, the avoidance section?
did you take up the DSA's offer on their open days and cover the test route yourself and if you did, do you consider that a reasonable rider should be able accomplish it?

Seeing as more people have passed it than have failed or fallen off, it appears on the face of the intitial results the test is reasonable.

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#10 09-05-09 08:35:30

kjs
Verified Member
From: Rossendale Lancashire
Registered: 20-05-06
Posts: 976
Website

Re: Who didn't see this coming then???

May be the test course was designed by the pasta and pizza makers. they tend to be involved in every consultation that DSA have. DSA for certain never saw this happening.

I do sincerly hope that the 2 riders are ok, and do go on to pass the test.

kevin

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#11 29-07-09 08:26:19

barrykenward
Verified Member
From: Portchester Nr Fareham
Registered: 26-07-09
Posts: 53

Re: Who didn't see this coming then???

Morning Folks,

This has been on the back boiler for a very long time - I have personally been involved with researching some of the issues about what has happened and certainly the Rotherham case - the very first AND second of crashes on the new test were not insignificant, as one of the riders broke an arm.

I asked for a Freedom of Information (FOI) request for the first week of tests and although they were low in comparison to how many were taken (crashes with one other incident) it is ten too many. My information took three weeks to arrive.
One might have thought that those who had been prepared by 'Quality Trainers' and having had sufficient training, they would have understood exactly what they were letting themselves in for.

Strangely enough Kevin Ash who writes for MCN (& The Telegraph) also asked for a FOI and his figures were different to mine - his total was 25 - which I thought was strange - 14 on the Avoidance - 5 on the Controlled stop - 1 on figure of eight - 1 practicing before test - 4 not recorded - INJURIES were 16. Kevins information arrived soon after he made a phone call.

There have been a number of broken bones as a result of this exercise - two to my knowledge have broken ankles. It wold appear the majority of these incidents have been in the rain.

This surface composition is used by local authorities and when they put the surface down they erect advanced warning signs of 'slippery road surface'. This then keeps them inside the HSE requirements. DSA when told about this by me last year, moved the start of the test back to carry out more tests and decided to skim the surface with water jets to remove the very top surface to allow a more grippy surface to appear which normally takes up to 18 months to wear in on the Highway.

Of course the DSA DO have a duty of care for their own and others safety under Health, Safety and Welfare at work regulations 1998 both before and during a test. So they could be sued if it was discovered they had not been diligent.

I wrote to HSE and got a very surprising response from them and in turn the reports that DSA had submitted. Strangely the very first two were NOT LISTED, so figures have been fiddled. When I asked further questions I was advised irrespective of who the organisations were and how big they were they did not always sunmitt all incidents.

There is to be a Parliamentary enquiry later in the year - if you feel that something needs to be done about this test WHEN BEING CONDUCTED IN THE WET then now is the time to do something, because if the DSA get their way, it will ALWAYS be the Trainer who is to blame.

I am not sure if anyone has noticed - the stopping distances being used are the same for a car at 30mph in DRY conditions - the bike is doing 31.25mph - most crashes have occurred in the wet. We all know e need more space to stop in the wet - even Stuart HARPER who is the DSA Correspondence manager admits that 'bikes take longer to stop.

The news letter above contains some of the latest information from the DSAS's May 2009 statement, which is three and  a half pages long. Has anyone ever asked to view their research? Some of my European research shows that this kind of training is of little value, because it is not re-inforced often enough. It wold be better to teach preventative that reactive techniques IMHO, but what do I know - I have only been riding for 30 years to a system that has been used by Police forces around the world.

No I am not a qualified trainer, however, I have managed to avoid becoming involved with others stupidity for all of that time.

Must go or I will be alte for an appointment.

Regards,

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