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#26 12-06-09 07:46:14

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

i'm all for good reasoning but i'm afraid i cant see any when some one says hpt is causing an increase in acidents.

that is a very misleading thing to say and is based on hatred of hpt not sound reasoning.

i am not defending hpt on its own..... but i AM defending it against unfair commentts.

In another thread some one says "no wonder the DSA dont take us seriously".. Standing up in front of them and stateing that hpt should be scrapped because it is causing an increas in RTAs (while actually meaning that this is yet another way of trying to get rid of it because we hate it) is possibly an example of that in my opinion.

listening just to the people we like to hear is not always the best thing to do.. valid opinions come from many sources

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12-06-09 07:46:14

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Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips



#27 12-06-09 07:55:46

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

The DSA take us very seriously, I spend many hours with them on workshops to help us understand the needs of both the DSA and the general public.

Believe it or not they admit the HPT is NOT fit for purpose, but have a difficulty replacing it with something that is.

The DSA are still a government agency, and as such are bound by all sorts of laws and statutes, changing opinions is easy, changing practice???

thats a completely different story.

Martyn Bryan

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#28 12-06-09 15:04:12

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

yes but not being "fit for purpose" is not the same thing as blaming increasing accidents on it.

if your going to something about it making that sort of acusation is not going to be taken seriously..... and we must not forget that no matter what they replace it with some ADIs will still be totally against it just like they always have been.

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#29 12-06-09 19:24:56

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Against it?

Only in its current format.

The test needs to be fit for purpose, but fit for everyones purpose.

The DDA has rules governing such things, the HPT does not conform to that, nor does the theory test, where anyone with, say, learning difficulties, or perhaps dyslexia will struggle to the nth.

I have to say that this thread has made me re think the approach I have to the HPT, because for a while I quite liked it, however in its current guise I am with Peter, it needs changing, I am not afraid to say that in thinking it was doing OK I was mistaken.

Martyn Bryan

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#30 12-06-09 19:46:25

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

thats fine... as long as you accept that peters argument that it is causing more RTAs is incorrect or at least without good factual basis.

whether HPT is fit for purpose or not is separate from the earlier statement that it is actualy CAUSING  people to have accidents..... and that there fore throws into question other opinion based statements from people who believe such a thing.

HPT cannot be making matters worse.. At worst it achieves nothing.

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#31 13-06-09 22:41:20

Peter_Cary
Verified Member
Registered: 08-04-06
Posts: 1,193
Website

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Hi Aspyre,

thats fine... as long as you accept that peters argument that it is causing more RTAs is incorrect or at least without good factual basis.

I think we are agreed KSI figures have increased significantly for new drivers during the time HPT was introduced are we not?

How do you explain the coincidence?

whether HPT is fit for purpose or not is separate from the earlier statement that it is actualy CAUSING  people to have accidents..... and that there fore throws into question other opinion based statements from people who believe such a thing.

Red Scientific had devised a test that actually worked for airline pilots and could have been adapted for learners that actually did test the perception of hazards, but it seems was rejected by DSA on cost grounds as each video clip would have to be analysed frame by frame and the number of hazards that could be identified per clip would vary greatly making it difficult to have a pass mark, but it would have been much better than what learners have today. 

HPT cannot be making matters worse.. At worst it achieves nothing.

I am afraid I still stand by my opinion that there is too much coincidence between the rise in KSI figures and HPT for this possibility to be ignored.

Speaking to many candidates leaving theory test centres many agree with me.

Returning to the original posting.....

The DSA proposals to "improve" HPT by making it "3D" my concerns that more candidates will be effected by Kinetosis, still stand will they not??

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#32 13-06-09 23:04:10

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

peter ksis have been increasing from what ever point in time you care to choose.. as more people get cars they will continue to rise..... all we can do is our best as adis to not contribute to the increase by omitting important teaching.

i'm sorry but saying it is due to hpt is the same as saying it is due to flying saucers!!

http://www.fastandsafe.org.nz/Pages/Fac … /index.htm

There are some people who like to say "there are lies damn lies and statistics" when it suits them to disagree with some thing.. This is one of those things where it is at the other extremity.

candidates being affected by kinetosis is totally separate from the teaching of hazard perception as a skill.. it is only when it comes down to the actual method that kinetosis can be an issue..... for a very small minority of people in any case...... and don't forget that many of these people are also adversely afected whe driving normally or when as passengers.

putting aside the small percentage of people affected then i accept there is an issue with hpt in this respect for some people.. but that does not mean you can fly off at a tangent and say "hpt causes more accidents" (and we both know what we mean by that word "accident") to try and support argument for change to the hpt.. DSA wont take that argument seriously.

it does not cause more accidents.. It cant..... no matter what you can squeeze out of the statistics to try and prove an opinion.

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#33 14-06-09 06:44:23

Peter_Cary
Verified Member
Registered: 08-04-06
Posts: 1,193
Website

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Hi Asprye,

My apologies for omitting a key phrase in my statement above

I think we are agreed KSI figures have increased significantly for new drivers during the time HPT was introduced are we not?

How do you explain the coincidence?

Asprye wrote:

peter ksis have been increasing from what ever point in time you care to choose.. as more people get cars they will continue to rise..... all we can do is our best as adis to not contribute to the increase by omitting important teaching.

I am afraid you are wrong there as every DSA conference I attend Rosemary and others on the top table remind us that they are well on target to meet the target of a 40% reduction on the 1994-1998 KSI average by 2010

Click here


Of course I should have said

I think we are agreed KSI figures have increased significantly for new drivers during the time HPT was introduced are we not? Against a downward trend for ALL other drivers.

How do you explain the coincidence?


No individual can "prove" that HPT has been the cause for this BUT I know of no other "initiative"/reason that has been introduced since 14 Nov 2002 that appears to mirror exactly this opposing trend in society, however to dismiss it out of hand is surely taking the same line as "Flat Earthers" did hundred of years ago.


 

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#34 14-06-09 08:51:04

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

peter as i said above blaming asn increase in ksis in whatever group on hpt is like blaming it on flying saucers.

just how do you think it is having this negative affect?? what are the mechanics where doing hpt - i.e. sit in front of a computer screen for 45 minutes or so - addles peoples brains so that they go out and have accidents 6 months later??

when you reword the situation..... that new drivers are almost all young people so it is young drivers who are having the accidents then much more likely answers start to occur.

when confronted with the question "why do young drivers have moire accidents" you wont find many insurance comps who think it has ever fallen..... thats why premiums are always higher for new drivers and always have been.

it isnt because of hpt...... and even if there was a link it would be the fact a computer was involved rather than the phrase "hpt" and there fore would be due much more to young peoples tendency to use computers!!

young drivers have accidents because they are young drivers not because of hpt.. this is not "flat earth" thinking but simple common sense.

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#35 14-06-09 09:20:59

Peter_Cary
Verified Member
Registered: 08-04-06
Posts: 1,193
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Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Hi Aspyre,

ust how do you think it is having this negative affect?? what are the mechanics where doing hpt - i.e. sit in front of a computer screen for 45 minutes or so - addles peoples brains so that they go out and have accidents 6 months later??

As I said earlier it is not the 20 minutes of HPT test that is the problem but the fact that most theory test failures are on HPT and my questions to the DSA as to how many candidates where clicking within 2 seconds of the scoring window opening could not be answered by the DSA as they "HAD NO NEED" to find out this information they could not answer it, but I and many others feel that if they did they would find an awful lot of candidates where identifying the hazard but not being rewarded for doing so.

THIS IS THE ONLY TEST I KNOW OF WHERE YOU CAN FAIL FOR BEING TOO GOOD.

Many of those that do pass feel they understand how to deal with hazards...

Namely to react AFTER they have DEVELOPED.


when confronted with the question "why do young drivers have moire accidents" you wont find many insurance comps who think it has ever fallen..... thats why premiums are always higher for new drivers and always have been.

However the KSI figres are increasing in this section whilst the actual number of new drivers is falling.

Is it just pure coincidence that HPT was introduced just as this has happened in the last 7 years and seems to be continuing?

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#36 14-06-09 12:03:50

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

in short YES..thats exactly what it is.... conincidence (or bad statitics)..... and more importantly while people are going on about it being hpt related because they hate hpt and always have.... the real reasons for young people having accidents are being neglected.

i'm sure you are one of the ones who has said there are lies damn lies and statistics before and i cant beleive you are making such a flaky connection between accidents and hpt.

You also have to be careful not to assume that your special needs pppls are representative of every one else out there.. that would also be bad statitstics.

hpt does not cause people to have accidents.... unless there adis are also providing substandard teaching and not teaching hazard perception as part of the normal training the way they should do and always have had to.

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#37 16-06-09 06:16:37

Peter_Cary
Verified Member
Registered: 08-04-06
Posts: 1,193
Website

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Hi Aspyre,

in short YES..thats exactly what it is.... conincidence (or bad statitics)..... and more importantly while people are going on about it being hpt related because they hate hpt and always have.... the real reasons for young people having accidents are being neglected.

Statistically the run of "bad luck" for new drivers must be due to end soon then, that will be good for all concerned.  smile

As I have stated many times I was the strongest advocate of HPT when it was first mooted, but unfortunately I feel very let down in the way it has been delivered, especially as Red Scientific had offered a system that had been PROVED to work. :cry:

i'm sure you are one of the ones who has said there are lies damn lies and statistics before and i cant beleive you are making such a flaky connection between accidents and hpt.

Unfortunately I have not heard your suggestion as to why the KSI figures have continued to grow against a general downward trend AND a reducing number of new drivers coming onto the roads.

You also have to be careful not to assume that your special needs pppls are representative of every one else out there.. that would also be bad statitstics.

I am only too aware that the vast majority of my clients are not the "norm" but on the other hand very few of my clients actually go onto write their cars off either, in fact only 3 that I know of out of nearly 1,000 learners and ALL of them were not the more "challenging" clients in fact all were were very easy to teach and passed their test first time.

hpt does not cause people to have accidents.... unless there adis are also providing substandard teaching and not teaching hazard perception as part of the normal training the way they should do and always have had to.

Passing HPT does "say" to learners "YOU CAN SPOT A HAZARD" when as I think we are all agreed it does NOT, and THAT IS THE PROBLEM......

Many come with a theory pass and predetermined concepts of safe driving which unfortunately do not always show themselves to an ADI in the training environment, or if they do they can still pass a driving test

Learning to Drive consultation dismissed most of the ideas that could have reduced KSI figures IMHO

Minimum number of professional hours training, before taking test.

Graduated licence..

But what do I know on the subject????

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#38 16-06-09 11:34:58

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

for heavens sake peter..... no one said it was a run of bad luck and you know it!! there is obviousdly a reason for this and i have told you what it is definitely mostly related to.... DECLINING ATTITUDE.. it is NOT hpt which is making people drive like morons.

no one is going to take such a claim seriously..... that some one who hates the hpt and always has is arguing that hpt is actually causing people to have accidents and die.. that is totally without foundation... unless you tell them that stuff about the statistics which i'm afraid is just so far off beam they would laugh.

as for what you know on the subject.... which subject??.... driver training or statistical analysis?? How about consideing what other people know as well wink

sitting in fron of a PC for an hour does not make people have accidents.. ADIs are still successfully teaching what they always taught durign driving lessons.. therefore if people have accidents after they pass it is neither of those two things which is directly causing accidents.

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#39 16-06-09 12:06:08

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

I have been active on this thread, but to be honest I think it time to stop now, we all have differing opinions, and this is now getting a bit silly, perhaps we agree to disagree??

Martyn  :police: tongue :angel: :?

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#40 16-06-09 12:15:25

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

agreed

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