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#1 05-04-09 15:39:57

SnaxMuppet
Guest

Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Has anyone else experienced this...?

When I was practicing for the HP test I was looking at many clips on my PC. On a few I found that I was feeling decidedly uncomfortable and slight dizzy as a result of watching the motion in the clip. It was particularly noticable when going round corners.

It is obvious what it is and not really surprising but has anyone else noticed it? I wonder how many people this affects to the point that it puts them off the test?

05-04-09 15:39:57

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Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips



#2 05-04-09 15:55:18

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

try sitting further away from the screen!

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#3 05-04-09 16:12:10

DampDog
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire.
Registered: 04-02-06
Posts: 1,538

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Cooking sherry! You're either drinking too much or not enough, try experimenting withe the quantities.. big_smile big_smile.

Seriously, try limiting the time practicing. Most computer games now recommend frequent brakes from playing, I guess for similar reasons.


ADI (car)
1st CT (5)

I used to be a compleat idiot, until some bits fell off...

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#4 05-04-09 18:16:58

jonnmedds
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 154

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

I might be daft, but, isn't Vertigo the fear heights.  :?

Jon

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#5 05-04-09 18:25:09

DampDog
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire.
Registered: 04-02-06
Posts: 1,538

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

I might be daft, but, isn't Vertigo the fear heights.  :?

Jon

No, it's a screwed up inner ear. Can effect balance, make you feel dizzy, light headed and generally unsteady. Some people are prone to it, but it can be caused by an infection, or even be the result of permanent damage caused by infection. I only know because I had a friend who suffered from it badly.


ADI (car)
1st CT (5)

I used to be a compleat idiot, until some bits fell off...

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#6 05-04-09 18:48:16

Loopy Lou
Verified Member
From: Berkshire
Registered: 03-11-07
Posts: 554

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

I might be daft, but, isn't Vertigo the fear heights.  :?

Jon

Vertigo, as DampDog has already said, is a feeling of spinning or swaying whilst there is no actual movement of the body, due to a disorder of the balance mechanisms of the inner ear.

According to Wikipedia;

"Vertigo" is often used, incorrectly, to describe the fear of heights, but it is more accurately described as a spinning sensation, which may be caused by looking down from a high place, as well as by some other stimuli. Vertigo is qualified as height vertigo when referring to dizziness triggered by heights.

Fear of heights is called acrophobia (not to be confused with "agoraphobia" which is a fear of unfamiliar or crowded environments)!


Has anyone else experienced this...?

When I was practicing for the HP test I was looking at many clips on my PC. On a few I found that I was feeling decidedly uncomfortable and slight dizzy as a result of watching the motion in the clip. It was particularly noticable when going round corners.

It is obvious what it is and not really surprising but has anyone else noticed it? I wonder how many people this affects to the point that it puts them off the test?

I have heard of people suffering from dizzy turns whilst doing the HP part.

I'm pretty sure that some ADI's said they had similar dizziness/nausea problems when they all had to take the HP test a couple of years back and I think I'm right in saying that at least one of the ADI representative organisations tried to get this raised with the DSA at the time...don't think they had much success though.


It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful...

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#7 05-04-09 18:50:00

jonnmedds
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire
Registered: 25-02-04
Posts: 154

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Jon

jonnmedds wrote:

I might be daft, but, isn't Vertigo the fear heights.  :?

Jon

No, it's a screwed up inner ear. Can effect balance, make you feel dizzy, light headed and generally unsteady. Some people are prone to it, but it can be caused by an infection, or even be the result of permanent damage caused by infection. I only know because I had a friend who suffered from it badly.

Brilliant that's something else i've learnt today, every day's a school day  big_smile

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#8 05-04-09 18:59:14

DampDog
Verified Member
From: Staffordshire.
Registered: 04-02-06
Posts: 1,538

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

I think a few on here have allodoxaphobia and amaxophobia... big_smile big_smile :evil:


ADI (car)
1st CT (5)

I used to be a compleat idiot, until some bits fell off...

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#9 05-04-09 20:32:56

driver69
Guest

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Hands up all those who had to google allodoxaphobia and amaxophobia  smile


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#10 05-04-09 20:45:07

smithwold
Verified Member
From: Berkshire
Registered: 18-08-07
Posts: 716
Website

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Well my hand is up..... wish I hadn't bothered.  tongue

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#11 07-06-09 03:36:31

Peter_Cary
Verified Member
Registered: 08-04-06
Posts: 1,193
Website

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Hi,

I would say sorry for dragging this thread back up to the top, but I am not...

Just because SnaxMuppet incorrectly called the condition vertigo does not make the problem any less in those who suffer from it.

When old timers such as myself were forced to re-qualify by taking the HPT many of us were effected by...

Kinetosis.

Motion Sickness the same feeling of nausea one can get from reading a book in a moving car, because the mind is confused as it thinks the body is at rest but the senses confirm that the body is actually moving.

During HPT the eyes are telling the mind the body is moving, but the movement sensors in the ears are contradicting this which causes the dizziness and feeling of nausea.

The DSA are well aware of the problem as when the concept was first mooted they were warned that 1% of the population could be seriously affected by this, although 1% is a very small proportion of the population it is a very large number of individuals who take the "test".

I myself found it very difficult to watch all 14 clips without feeling seriously unwell and I know of several ADI who were actually physically sick when they were forced to undertake the test or lose the right to carry on as an ADI, I know of one individual who failed the test many times before the DSA arranged for the "test" to be broken down into individual clips so they could take several minutes to recover between the clips something the DSA originally said was impossible and still do not advertise as a possible solution to people effected.

I have grave concerns that the DSA's plans to "improve" HPT by making it 3D will actually make matters worse as the candidate will be "immersed" in a "virtual world" with several screens telling the brain that the body is moving BUT THE CANDIDATE WILL ACTUALLY BE IN A NON MOVING REAL WORLD.

It may sound like a trivial problem to many but for those effected it is a real problem.

I ask the DSA when is the reduction in KSI figures start to come on stream that they promised us with the introduction of HPT, as the KSI for new drivers has actually RISEN against a general downward trend for the rest of the motoring public?

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#12 07-06-09 14:31:32

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

I am not sure if this solution is worthy of consideration, so please pardon my ignorance of the condition Peter is describing, I feel that the distance from the screen can seriously effect the ability of the responder to see the clips clearly, so I imagine the further back the better. Perhaps this would involve a larger screen, and a MUCH greater distance from the screen.

I am also  aware that motion sickness can be reduced by being in control of the situation, e.g. being the driver rather than passenger, so perhaps the breaking up of the clips into a reasonable timescale would help enormously. Why do they insist on a short gap between clips???

I think the candidate should be in control of that. It is clear that the timescale involved is simply to restrict the time the candidate is on the test so as to cram more tests in per day, well the test costs enough for the DSA to allow four times more time and still be appropriate. Indeed why not allow people to take it completely in their own time......

Martyn Bryan :?


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#13 07-06-09 19:13:16

Peter_Cary
Verified Member
Registered: 08-04-06
Posts: 1,193
Website

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Hi Martyn,

Speaking only for myself on my attempts to pass HPT, I found myself being driven by a manic DSA official at a break neck speed that I could not influence at all, but at the same time I had to spot the two pixels that represented the suicidal granny wishing to throw herself under the wheels of the car, whilst telling myself to ignore potential hazards that did not "develop" into a crash situation.

I find it impossible to read a book whilst being driven as it causes car sickness, as it does in many others in the population, as it has been said many ADI get sick if they have to ride in the back of the car another "problem" the DSA are ignoring with the compulsory sit in from October next year.

I just can not understand why the DSA are pressing on with HPT as the evidence seems to point at the fact that it is making things worse for new drivers with a large increase in the KSI figures for this group against the decrease for the rest of the motoring public, or perhaps with the massive profits it generates and it would be an equally massive submission that they got it wrong I suppose I can.  roll  roll

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#14 07-06-09 23:05:48

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

the evidence seems to point at the fact that it is making things worse for new drivers with a large increase in the KSI figures for this group against the decrease for the rest of the motoring public, or perhaps with the massive profits it generates and it would be an equally massive submission that they got it wrong I suppose I can.  roll  roll

Are you saying that the hpt is directly and solely responsible for a rise in accidents among new drivers??

i dont see how the hpt can do anything worse than have no affect what so ever especialy seeing as the training delivered by us is basically the same as it ever was.... or is it??

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#15 08-06-09 06:27:52

Peter_Cary
Verified Member
Registered: 08-04-06
Posts: 1,193
Website

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Hi Aspyre,

I and many others feel that HPT HAS HAD a detrimental effect on road safety.

Many youngsters come to me with a theory test pass in their hands but are unable to spot POTENTIAL HAZARDS at all.

I have sat beside clients who have had HPT scores into the 70's but were unable to spot...

Paving bricks scattered across the road on the approach to a roundabout.

A TREE blown down across the road blocking the entire road.

HPT it would seem has taught a whole generation of new drivers that one should ignore all hazards UNTIL they "DEVELOP" and then they should REACT to them.

I hope most instructors were and are teaching that the hazard should NEVER be allowed to DEVELOP in the first place however...

The DSA seem to place a great emphasis on fast reactions to a "problem" rather than change their speed and/or position to prevent the need to react to a hazard that a thinking driver would not have allowed to occur, so now learners ACTUALLY BELIEVE that it is BAD LUCK that is the reason the DSA camera car HAS TO REACT to the "HAZARD" whilst at the same time they must ignore many potential hazards that if clicked upon would cause them to be penalised for clicking in an inappropriate manner!! :x :x

Unless you can think of another reason for the increase in KSI figures for new drivers.

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#16 08-06-09 06:35:59

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Peter raises an interesting argument, and one I completely subscribe to.

The HPT, (and the theory test questions) are not really appropriate to the message we are trying to get across.

What a great shame the DSA don't ask us as professional trainers what the best system might be.......my answer would be to return to the highway code/essential skills questions as part of the driving test. (this would mean a good overall knowledge of driving theory, rather than the ability to rote learn a series of answers)

The theory test is outdated, and in many cases simply not helping.

HPT is a complete joke, and whether the DSA decide to "upgrade it" to 3D or not, will remain so.

I think it much wiser to allow the pupils driving to display their ability to recognise and deal with hazards!!!

Martyn Bryan

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#17 08-06-09 09:20:40

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

but martyn thats exactly what they are doing..... drving with adis and spotting real hazards.

if they dont spot them they fail the test in the same manner you and i did (or didnt) when we trained.... its that simple.

you arent telling me that by completing hpt they are incapable of spotting real life hazards when they are completing whole driving courses with adis just like has always been the case??

hpt may not be helping but i cant believe some one would say it is harming.

Yes peter i do have a better explanation..... deterorating attitudes among all involved (trainers and ppls) and deteriorating quality of training overall....

Mainly the first one because driving like an idiot requires an idiot.... but i know i find it difficult to be enthusiastic about some thing when i disagree totally with it so it must be hard for others...

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#18 08-06-09 10:19:06

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

When I trained and passed my ADI qualifying exams in 1990 there was not a hazard perception test, nor was there a question bank. (well not a published one anyway)

It was a much better system, my examiner on my part two was capable of assessing my ability to drive, plan and anticipate. That was his job and he was excellent at it.

I kept in touch with Mr Young, right up till his retirement, and he was always pushing for greater knowledge and experience.

To suggest that the HPT is working, reducing RTAs is somewhat myopic, it causes candidates to treat HPT as a computer game, clicking in the right "place" takes over from recognising hazards.

forward thinking trainers and ADIs will agree the system is not fit for purpose.

We have suggested new ways of testing this skill set, and the best suggestion is yet to be arrived at.

Perhaps those defending the HPT can show where it HAS reduced accidents, improved pupils forward planning and made a significant improvement to road safety.

Martyn Bryan 

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#19 08-06-09 14:44:13

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

you could also argue that not accepting the younger generation often relates to "computer games" more than it does other stimuli is also myopic..... time change but do adis and there training methods??

in any case the dsa is trying to make the situation more realistic by moving on to 3d systems.

i think it would be a rash person who said the hpt was definitly reducing rtas in all cases but he would have to be equaly as rash to say it is making things worse when there is no direct evidence that it is.

the way you and i train people is not that much different to the way our trainers taught us all those years ago and the hpt is somer thing plastered over ther top.. it doesnt replace any thing.... it supplements it.. so the "much better system" is still there just with hpt on top of it.

i think those who hate the hpt and are saying it has made matters worse have more of a responsibility to prove this than those who dont have a big problem with hpt have to prove otherwise.. a lot of the time opposition to it is based on the simple fact that we have ppls who cant pass it and not because of any other reason.. many of those people opposed hpt before they knew what it was and have stuck with that.

at worst it just doesnt work.. but there is no direct evidence this is the case.. the vast majority of people sail through it without any harmful affects at all (i wont say some gain from it because i cant prove that any more than any one here can prove oitherwise).

increasing rtas is not due to any isolated problem but a whole bunch of things, and hpt is not really going to be one of them...... it would be very rash to say doing it makes people drive stupidly.. it doesnt.

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#20 11-06-09 19:19:28

Peter_Cary
Verified Member
Registered: 08-04-06
Posts: 1,193
Website

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Hi Aspyre

you could also argue that not accepting the younger generation often relates to "computer games" more than it does other stimuli is also myopic..... time change but do adis and there training methods??

I specialise in the more "challenging" clients and am constantly adapting my teaching techniques to cater for their needs. 

in any case the dsa is trying to make the situation more realistic by moving on to 3d systems.

I believe this is going to be two extra screens to "provide" some peripheral view to be scanned NO WHERE LIKE 3 D but will cause more clients to be effected by Kinetosis.

i think it would be a rash person who said the hpt was definitly reducing rtas in all cases but he would have to be equaly as rash to say it is making things worse when there is no direct evidence that it is.

Well I can not think of any other reason for it...

Since the introduction of HPT KSI figures for new drivers HAS risen, but the cars they are driving now are much safer than those being driven 10 years ago with lots now having ABS, Airbags, Seatbelt pre-tensioners and so on.

I find it very interesting as well that the more experienced drivers i.e Police Class 1 find it difficult to pass as I said the evidence I saw that most experienced ADIs were clicking well before the scoring windows opened sometimes the only click they made would suggest that there is a "problem" with the placement of the scoring window.   roll  roll

the way you and i train people is not that much different to the way our trainers taught us all those years ago and the hpt is somer thing plastered over ther top.. it doesnt replace any thing.... it supplements it.. so the "much better system" is still there just with hpt on top of it.

Destroying lots of the training because it's DSA approved and MUST BE RIGHT SURELY?  :? :?

i think those who hate the hpt and are saying it has made matters worse have more of a responsibility to prove this than those who dont have a big problem with hpt have to prove otherwise.. a lot of the time opposition to it is based on the simple fact that we have ppls who cant pass it and not because of any other reason.. many of those people opposed hpt before they knew what it was and have stuck with that.

Even though MOST of my clients have real problems, those that I prepare for the theory all pass first time, although I do have some pupils with extreme problems who will require special theory tests and maybe will need several goes but this not because of the HPT but their language skills and mental interpretations of the DSA's "NEW SPEAK".

at worst it just doesnt work.. but there is no direct evidence this is the case.. the vast majority of people sail through it without any harmful affects at all (i wont say some gain from it because i cant prove that any more than any one here can prove oitherwise).

I have asked the DSA for figures proving that HPT has improved things or not but they have not bothered to check up on it....

Could it be because they are scared of what the facts would prove??

increasing rtas is not due to any isolated problem but a whole bunch of things, and hpt is not really going to be one of them...... it would be very rash to say doing it makes people drive stupidly.. it doesnt.

Cars are constantly improving, new instructors are coming on stream all the time so the new driver SHOULD BE better prepared than ever before WHAT IS THE REASON THAT KSI FIGURES HAVE RISEN in almost exactly the same time frame that HPT was introduced??

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#21 11-06-09 21:02:44

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Well I can not think of any other reason for it...

I am really sur[prised at that.

How do you think that having to do HPT is some how making people have accidents?? If ADIs are doing there jobs properly (and at least as well as they always have done) then HPT can be having no benefit what so ever AT WORST.

To say it is making people have accidents needs a lot more evidence than just never having liked the HPT.

Driving standards are declining...... attitudes are deteriorating..... road rage is on the increase.... Thats why RTAs are increasing.. Its people not HPT causing accidents.

I wouldnt be surprised if HPT hasnt improved things... but I wouldnt be surprised if it had either.

The whole situation is so complex you cant just get some one to check a mirror or turn on an indicator (or some thing simple like that) and change the world.. It is much much deeper than that.

I just cant believe some one would say sitting in front of a computer screen for an hour sends RTAs through the roof.. It just doesnt.

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#22 11-06-09 21:37:33

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

So the HPT has been in force for how long? 10 years or so i guess, if road traffic accidents are on the increase, road rage is on the increase, and poor attitude is on the increase, why has the theory test and HPT been so poor as to have no effect on these statistics?

Indeed the stats show a marked decrease in the standards of driving since the inception of these elements to the "test" requirements.

The learning to drive consultation was an excellent opportunity to make a real change to the manner in which we train new drivers, what was the result?????

1, ADIs will probably HAVE to sit in on tests.

2, We will probably have a period of "independent" driving during the test............

3, errrrrrrr

4, ummmmmm

5, Well

6, not much there then.

Thats how much the DSA and the government value the opportunity to reduce RTA stats, now if we REALLY want to change them, we need to operate over and above their standards.

Anyone for tennis!!!! cos it will be a long hard road to convince new drivers of the need for all that extra training and I for one think most will simply decline.

Martyn Bryan

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#23 11-06-09 21:48:35

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Martyn hpt was never introduced to stop road rage.. it was brought in to supposedly test people on hazard perception.... hence the name.

whether it achieves that or not is open to debate...... but one thing which cant be levelled at it is that it is responsible for more accidents..... or the possibility that ADIs are going to have to sit in on tests.

HPt is a separate matter and if any one is going to manage to get rid of it it wont be by making impossible cynical anti DSA connections like these.

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#24 12-06-09 04:33:18

Peter_Cary
Verified Member
Registered: 08-04-06
Posts: 1,193
Website

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Aspyre wrote:
Peter_Cary on Yesterday at 20:19:28 wrote:

Well I can not think of any other reason for it...

I am really sur[prised at that.

How do you think that having to do HPT is some how making people have accidents?? If ADIs are doing there jobs properly (and at least as well as they always have done) then HPT can be having no benefit what so ever AT WORST.

Unfortunately my personal opinion is that the standard of ADI coming on stream nowadays is actually declining for many reasons..

They are being attracted into an industry for the wrong reasons 30K and a shiny new car.
The gross inadequacies of the PDI system 
They are being churned out on a production line with the very basic knowledge to pass PST but little else, questions on forums such as this seem to substantiate this.
The average trading life of an ADI is less than 2 years so very few have any experience.

To say it is making people have accidents needs a lot more evidence than just never having liked the HPT.

Again speaking personally when HPT was first mooted I was one of its strongest advocates, but when I found out how it was being implemented I was devastated.

Driving standards are declining...... attitudes are deteriorating..... road rage is on the increase.... Thats why RTAs are increasing.. Its people not HPT causing accidents.

I agree it's people but the DSA are actually influencing new drivers minds into thinking that reacting at the last moment is THE CORRECT thing to do. :? :? :?
Hence the decline in attitude and increase in road rage as the general public actually believe THEY ARE DRIVING CORRECTLY. :? :? :?

I wouldnt be surprised if HPT hasnt improved things... but I wouldnt be surprised if it had either.

The DSA are not looking to see if it has changed things, I ask again are they worried at what they might find if they did?

The whole situation is so complex you cant just get some one to check a mirror or turn on an indicator (or some thing simple like that) and change the world.. It is much much deeper than that.

The Chinese have a saying "The beginning of a journey starts with the first step"  smile smile

I just cant believe some one would say sitting in front of a computer screen for an hour sends RTAs through the roof.. It just doesnt.

It's much more than sitting in front of screen for the actual test as I stated earlier its the BRAIN WASHING that the DSA are doing to new drivers into thinking that fast reactions are necessary to be a good driver, when WE KNOW that POOR DRIVING is the reason fast reactions are needed. :evil:

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#25 12-06-09 06:43:43

Martyn Bryan
Verified Member
Registered: 19-02-09
Posts: 38

Re: Vertigo when doing Hazard Perception Clips

Aspyre I never said it was, you mentioned road rage as being on the increase.........

We should listen to Peter, he will not say here, but he is the countries foremost authority on training people with a disability.....

perhaps rather than making an argument for the HPT, it would be wise to look to see how we can make it suitable for all candidates, our system of driver training and indeed testing is old fashioned and divisive, I guess Peter is trying to round the square so that those with a difficulty have fair access to the system and a fair chance of passing, if he says the HPT is a difficulty too far for his clients, then I for one take that as absolute.

Martyn Bryan

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