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#26 27-04-09 11:35:24

angleson
Verified Member
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: Yet another failed attempt

Hi all,

I'm new to this forum.

I passed my p3 in 2002 and have had 2 check-tests.

I've had a look at this thread and the comments are very interesting.

Nobody seems to think that the part 3 test itself fails the candidate (and therefore in theory the check-test).

I find the whole process so false and I'm not sure what kind of training the SEADI's have had - I'm not convinced they can tell in an hour who is a good instructor and who's just playing the game. We talk of getting better training, that is to say, get trained to pass the part 3 / check test. I'm not so sure that this improves ones abilities as an instructor though.

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27-04-09 11:35:24

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Re: Yet another failed attempt



#27 27-04-09 13:56:49

wonder wheels
Member
From: The Ghetto
Registered: 15-04-09
Posts: 5

Re: Yet another failed attempt

what I find hard to swallow is that DSA check test instructors etc but do nothing once "joe bloggs" has passed his test. once he has done so at 17, it is left up to the police to monitor the standards of his driving, the DSA do naff-all. Why should the pt3 test be so difficult and we get checked but normal driving standards are sooo bad, that nothing is done about it until the police catch them. Lowering the speed limit or installing new gatso's won't change the habbits of some drivers. They can pass when 17 and never be re-assessed again......

does this open another can of worms?


"I cook with wine, sometimes I even add it to the food" W.C. Fields

"I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw that my bath toys were a toaster and a radio" Joan Rivers

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#28 27-04-09 17:13:51

Aspyre
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Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Yet another failed attempt

erm i dont think they drive like idiots because the test is easy (and it isnt judging from the ones who fail).. they drive like idiots because they want to.

its a bit of a worrying atitide that you think the part 3 should be easier.. you'll be saying next to do away with it all together so people dont fail 3 times.

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#29 27-04-09 17:45:13

hector
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From: Manchester
Registered: 04-04-06
Posts: 2,097
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Re: Yet another failed attempt

The part 3 is extremely easy and needs toughening up, not making easier!


EXCELSIOR TRAINING 
James Dawson Grade 6 ADI (Ordit Registered) Ba (Hons) Driver Education
ADI qualification/Check test training/Excelsior DSA Ordit/fleet courses
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#30 27-04-09 18:37:32

angleson
Verified Member
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: Yet another failed attempt

Not sure that it should be made easier - I'm not saying it's difficult. I'm fine with it as it is if that's what the industry sees as being the one and only tool for assessing the ADI's capabilities. There will be those who hate it but will do enough to get a grade 4 and then go back to teach "the way they learn" and gain great success as instructors. There will also be instructors who are more suited to that way of teaching and therefore fit the DSA mould and maybe get a grade 6.

My point is that I'm not convinced that obtaining a grade 6 means that the instructor is better than a grade 4. It's inconclusive as it only takes into account one aspect of the job.

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#31 27-04-09 18:41:39

Aspyre
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Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Yet another failed attempt

i dont think theres one exam in the whole universe that cant give similar mis leading results some times.

most of the time it (CT) gets it about right though.. how people choose to **actually** teach day to day  is a diffrent matter.

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#32 27-04-09 18:50:42

daz6215
Verified Member
Registered: 07-06-08
Posts: 449

Re: Yet another failed attempt

i dont think theres one exam in the whole universe that cant give similar mis leading results some times.

most of the time it (CT) gets it about right though.. how people choose to **actually** teach day to day  is a diffrent matter.

I suppose it will depend on the SE's own interpretation of what He/she thinks should constitute a good lesson, and thats the problem with it in my opinion.

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#33 27-04-09 19:31:45

angleson
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Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: Yet another failed attempt

Yes, Daz, that's my point.

In many other aspects of testing, substantive tests are made to see if the correct procedures are being carried out, similar to the check-test. If they find that the job isn't necesarily being done "by the book" the "output" is then checked to see if it's accurate or not. The fact that not everyone teaches the way prescribed by the DSA doesn't necessarily mean that the job isn't being done properly. It takes great experience as an SEADI to recognize flair and creativity. If it deviates from the tick-box regime, I'm not sure they can record and appreciate the true ability of ALL ADIs.

Another aspect which isn't being policed is the code of preactice of ADI. Do all ADIs switch off their mobiles during lessons? If so why do they still wear the earpiece?

Do ADIs that use the piggy-back system declare so in their ads?

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#34 27-04-09 20:10:06

Aspyre
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Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Yet another failed attempt

its a bit idealistic though.. i cant think of anything that would record the "true ability" of all adis.... but i can think of a lot of things that some adis *think* would do that because it is there own idea.. The trouble is almost every adi has there *own* idea and thats where the problem really lies.

you just have to look at the angst on here with adis selling there own methods and not aknowledging others.. i think a lot of the time opposition to CTs stems from not getting a good result.

the best thing they could do is start removing people who dont make 4 after a period of remedial training or even  maybe those who remain on 4 over several CTs.. bad adis might get a 4 after one CT but they'll really struggle to keep doing it if theyr'e that bad.

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#35 27-04-09 21:22:17

angleson
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Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: Yet another failed attempt

Difference of opinion will exist for as long as the human race exists and in the main, can be a good thing!

I can see the usefulness of a check-test and I'm not saying it doesn't serve a purpose. I don't know how it can be improved - maybe it doesn't need to.

But as I said before, it's just one aspect of the job. If its purpose is to prove to the DSA that we can still do what we did for the P3 then it's fine. But my view is that, if it is used portray the ADIs overall ability, then it can be misleading.

Is there any correlation beween the ADI grade and the success rate of their learners? Personally, I think not.

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#36 27-04-09 21:32:49

Aspyre
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Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Yet another failed attempt

i'd be surprised if there isnt if you look at it over all.. not just picking out individul exceptions but just over all figures.

over all.... grade 6 tends to be picked up by longer experienced adis.. i said "over all" and i know there are exsceptions.. and also over all better training tends to be carried out by those with more experience.. note i said "tends" because there are obvious exeptions.

so you say you think not.... but i would bet money there *is* a correlation if you look at over all figures.. I cant see how there cannot be a correlation however small.. The only problem is it might be eaten up by the "noise" of other factors.

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#37 27-04-09 21:43:33

angleson
Verified Member
Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: Yet another failed attempt

Yes, Aspyre, you may be right but as it isn't proved, who knows? Personally I'd be surprised if it has any bearing on the success of the ADI, but that's my opinion, of course!

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#38 27-04-09 22:06:51

Aspyre
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Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Yet another failed attempt

as long as we accept that it is naive to assume some one who qualified last week is always as good as some one with 10 years excperience. On average they are not.

as I often tell my pupils, experience cannot be obtained quickly. By definition it takes time.

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#39 27-04-09 22:26:31

angleson
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Registered: 26-04-09
Posts: 55

Re: Yet another failed attempt

True enough!

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#40 28-04-09 09:22:23

KevB
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From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
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Re: Yet another failed attempt

I seem to recall reading a report by the DSA that included a graph demonstrating the correlation between test results and instructor grades.

The sample group was quite small in relation to the number of instructors at the time, and the data was based on quite a small time period.

The graph did show a clear distinction betwen test pass rates and grade of instructor, with the majority of grade 6 instructors acheiving the better test results, followed by 5's 4's and finishing with grade 3's and PDI results being about the same.

Of course there were a couple of PDI's and grade 3's that were acheiving results similar to the majority of grade 6's and likewise a couple of grade 6's acheiving low test results, but the overall trend was grade 6's were amassed at the higher end of the graph and with grade 3's and PDI's at the lower end of the graph.

I noted at the time that there were actually very few grade 6 instructors included in the sample group (presumably due to many grade 6's doing other work other than L test clients).

I also considered the sample group was too small and the time period too short for the graph to have any real reflection of the true correlation between instructor grade and test results.

I think the data was supplied primarily by BSM and was based on a period in either 1997 or 1999.

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#41 28-04-09 13:28:52

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Yet another failed attempt

but enough of a correlation to confirm that there IS a relationship and that people who get grade 6/5/4 will tend to perform accordingly over all.

it would have been this report

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/re … 751?page=9

The sample size is easily big enough to show any significant trend.. the distribution for each group is normal judging by the graph shape.. it is clear that grading does reflect on pass rate and so standard of training given.. it isnt suprising.

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#42 02-05-09 22:51:22

KevB
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From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
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Re: Yet another failed attempt

Have studied the above report again and thought I'd present the results of the 299 tests in the survey.

PST Number.....Failed..Passed..Total...........Pass %
1.....................12..........6........18..............33...%
2.....................20........12........32..............37.5%
3.....................21........12........33..............36...%
4.....................30..........1........31...............3...%
5.....................19........18........37..............48.6%
6.....................20........13........33..............39...%
7.....................22........13........35..............37...%
8.....................25........12........37..............32...%
9.....................16..........5........21..............23.8%
10...................15..........7........22..............31.8.%
Total Tests.......200.......99......299..............33...%

So, if all PST's are meant to be of a similar standard, how can we explain the differences in pass rates between PST4 (3%) and PST 5 (48.6%)?

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#43 02-05-09 22:57:47

digit
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From: Bridge of Weir
Registered: 23-02-09
Posts: 91
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Re: Yet another failed attempt

Thanks for that Kevin
Feel a lot better with me 4/4 on PST 4 now ....  big_smile


Donnie ADI.

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#44 02-05-09 22:59:01

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
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Re: Yet another failed attempt

<whispers> and me as I got 5/5 on pst4.  <smugmode enabled>

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#45 02-05-09 23:11:21

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Yet another failed attempt

i'm sorry i'm a little confused.

the report and this thread consider the details the pupil test results of adis with various grades.. the point is that the best pdis and grade 4s get pupil pass rates  higher than the worst grade 6s.. or in other words there is significant overlap and you can't just assume one adi is  bad just because they have a grade lower than someone else.

where do PSTs come into it in this discusion?? Or is that a digresion??

people arent graded as such until there first CT is out of the way so i would assume those grades were real ones and not immediate post-qualify ones.. Given the vagueness of the Part 3 i would have expected 4/5/6 to be much less distinct if these were post-qualify results.. the report doesn't say of course so me just guessing.

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#46 02-05-09 23:31:17

KevB
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From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
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Re: Yet another failed attempt

  roll
It is a digression, but connected to the report.
seeing as the thread had gone quite for almost a week, I thought I'd expand on the report that was linked to, without taking too much distraction away from the original (and quiet)thread.

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#47 02-05-09 23:32:35

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Yet another failed attempt

no need for the  roll kevin.

it was a genuine question and i apologise if you misunderstood that.. it just came from nowhere thats all.

lets not let other threads or private discussions colur our opinions of peopl.

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#48 02-05-09 23:35:09

evanadi
Guest

Re: Yet another failed attempt

Have studied the above report again and thought I'd present the results of the 299 tests in the survey.

PST Number.....Failed..Passed..Total...........Pass %
1.....................12..........6........18..............33...%
2.....................20........12........32..............37.5%
3.....................21........12........33..............36...%
4.....................30..........1........31...............3...%
5.....................19........18........37..............48.6%
6.....................20........13........33..............39...%
7.....................22........13........35..............37...%
8.....................25........12........37..............32...%
9.....................16..........5........21..............23.8%
10...................15..........7........22..............31.8.%
Total Tests.......200.......99......299..............33...%

So, if all PST's are meant to be of a similar standard, how can we explain the differences in pass rates between PST4 (3%) and PST 5 (48.6%)?

Actually the points Kevin has brought up in this particular post are very pertinent, if people take the time to think about the whole testing/grading/performance criteria.

Think outside of the box for a moment. Ev


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#49 02-05-09 23:43:49

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Yet another failed attempt

people arent graded as such until there first CT is out of the way so i would assume those grades were real ones and not immediate post-qualify ones.. Given the vagueness of the Part 3 i would have expected 4/5/6 to be much less distinct if these were post-qualify results.. the report doesn't say of course so me just guessing.

Chapter 8.3 and Table 8.3 of the report presents some information regarding distinctions between, trainne licence holders, newly qualifed (transitional) and experieinced ADI's.

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#50 02-05-09 23:49:12

Aspyre
Member
Registered: 17-01-09
Posts: 2,754

Re: Yet another failed attempt

yes i would expect the main graph of pupil pass rates versus adi grade to be from a sample of the "experienced ADI" group referred to in the BSM data..... not those with qualifying grades.. that's what i was referring to.

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