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#1 23-01-09 00:12:36

dog
Verified Member
Registered: 29-10-06
Posts: 813

Emergency services

I was stuck at the front of a long queue of traffic today in rush hour, at a red light. Literally as I put the handbrake on I saw flashing blue lights in my rear and it was obvious a ambulance was coming my way. I could see people manoeuvring to let him through and I was hoping the lights would go green by the time he got near the top of the queue but they hadn't. The traffic was queued into the oncoming lane from out in the junction too so there was no way the ambulance was going to get through unless I moved.

So I looked around to make sure it was safe and went through the red light enough that I could get up onto the dropped bit of the pavement slightly (where the ped crossing is) to give him just enough space to squeeze through. And he managed to get past.

If I were to do this on a light with a traffic light camera and it flashed me, would I still be fined?

It was a four way junction and only one way gets the green light at a time, and I knew that since ours had only just gone red it would have been a good minute or so until we had the green again.

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23-01-09 00:12:36

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Re: Emergency services




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#2 23-01-09 06:07:44

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Emergency services

....If I were to do this on a light with a traffic light camera and it flashed me, would I still be fined?....

Simple answer is...very likely.  Others have been fined for doing this before.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#3 23-01-09 06:30:47

KevB
Verified Member
From: Amesbury
Registered: 06-06-08
Posts: 1,725
Website

Re: Emergency services

went through the red light

That would be an offence.

I could get up onto the dropped bit of the pavement slightly

Potentially an offence.

(where the ped crossing is)

That would be an offence.

If I were to do this on a light with a traffic light camera and it flashed me, would I still be fined?

Almost certainly.

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#4 23-01-09 11:45:44

timmanwaringadi
Verified Member
From: Devon
Registered: 29-08-06
Posts: 2,406
Website

Re: Emergency services

We have no exemptions, they do. It is their job to get around us.

However, by leaving more room in front of your vehicle at the lights or in a traffic queue, you can often get out of the way without crossing the line or going up on kerbs.

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#5 23-01-09 11:50:42

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Emergency services

....but what should people do?....

Follow the advice of teh emergency services.... http://www.met.police.uk/mpds/advice.htm

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#6 24-01-09 12:59:35

billrhoades
Verified Member
From: Northampton
Registered: 28-11-07
Posts: 184

Re: Emergency services

Some time ago I had a pupil on test. She had an ambulance with blues n twos behind her, she moved over and stopped on a pedestrian crossing to allow ambulance through, result FAILED for stopping on a pedestrian crossing.
Advice from emergency services on blues n twos "make way for us as soon as it is SAFE to do so"
Fire/ambulance services still have to obey the rules of the road when on call out, i:e stop at red lights, not exceed speed limits etc. It is only because we do not want anyone to suffer that we "turn a blind eye" to this fact.
IF the emergency vecihile was involved in a collision the driver would be "done for speeding. dangerous driving, failure to comply with road signs/traffic lights.

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#7 24-01-09 18:01:30

Kev D
Verified Member
From: Cheshire
Registered: 25-06-06
Posts: 306

Re: Emergency services

Some time ago I had a pupil on test. She had an ambulance with blues n twos behind her, she moved over and stopped on a pedestrian crossing to allow ambulance through, result FAILED for stopping on a pedestrian crossing.
Advice from emergency services on blues n twos "make way for us as soon as it is SAFE to do so"
Fire/ambulance services still have to obey the rules of the road when on call out, i:e stop at red lights, not exceed speed limits etc. It is only because we do not want anyone to suffer that we "turn a blind eye" to this fact.
IF the emergency vecihile was involved in a collision the driver would be "done for speeding. dangerous driving, failure to comply with road signs/traffic lights.

The Police, Fire & Ambulance have certain exemptions from some regulations which are written in law.

The 3 exemptions that are most commonly used are:

Spped Limits
Red Traffic Signals
Keep Left/Right Bollards


There are other exemptions which could also be written within local by-laws, ie using bus/cycle lanes during period of operation, or driving through pedestrianised areas, but these vary from place to place.  There are also written exemptions from Motorway Regulations which could allow the use of hard shoulder, stopping on a motorway etc, proceeding past red flashing signs on matrix signs etc.

A blue light driver does not have any exemption that would allow them to drive without due care and attention or driving dangerously.  They must also comply with all other road signs and markings that there is no written exemption from.


Police Driver Trainer
Grade 6 ADI - May 2013

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#8 06-02-09 13:16:25

999 trainer
Member
Registered: 10-12-08
Posts: 17

Re: Emergency services

The Police, Fire & Ambulance have certain exemptions from some regulations which are written in law.

The 3 exemptions that are most commonly used are:

Spped Limits
Red Traffic Signals
Keep Left/Right Bollards


There are other exemptions which could also be written within local by-laws, ie using bus/cycle lanes during period of operation, or driving through pedestrianised areas, but these vary from place to place.  There are also written exemptions from Motorway Regulations which could allow the use of hard shoulder, stopping on a motorway etc, proceeding past red flashing signs on matrix signs etc.

A blue light driver does not have any exemption that would allow them to drive without due care and attention or driving dangerously.  They must also comply with all other road signs and markings that there is no written exemption from.

The Emergency services also do not have an automatic right to claim an exemption - the driver should be able to justify any exemption that they claim.  i.e after a dynamic risk assessment on the approach to a red traffic signal the response driver will make a decison as to if he will claim the exemption or not, to claim the exemption he must be using blues & twos and be sure that ALL other road users are aware of and acting favorably towards him.


Fleet Trainer
999 Blue Light Emergency Ambulance Response Trainer (front line & Car)

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#9 09-02-09 23:47:20

Doc
Verified Member
Registered: 11-02-06
Posts: 559
Website

Re: Emergency services

I think we can all appreciate the human element here and it would be a hard nosed officer who would bring a charge on such a case. I think that would be a rare occurence, but!! cameras and courts are a different ball game and as has been said, you will be prosecuted, fined and receive at least 3 penalty points on your licence. In any industry where you need to keep a clean (ish) licence, we have to harden up to certain realities whether we agree with them or not.

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#10 10-02-09 00:01:31

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: Emergency services

In my experience most junction red light cameras are set to trigger above 12mph,this allows Emergency vehicles to negotiate without setting them off,so if MOP does it too and is below this then no problem.
Stephen

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#11 22-02-09 08:59:31

dog
Verified Member
Registered: 29-10-06
Posts: 813

Re: Emergency services

Well I need transport for my job and in my first 2 years of driving I can't afford to get any points on my licence, so I think I'll just let the unlucky person die until the law is changed.

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#12 28-07-09 21:35:11

barrykenward
Verified Member
From: Portchester Nr Fareham
Registered: 26-07-09
Posts: 53

Re: Emergency services

Hi folks,

The Devon & Cornwall Police used to have some very good drawings on their Web pages which showed you pictorially what to do in the event of an emergency vehicle needing access. I have just been to search and the pages seem to be down or not available.

That said, as part of a book I have written for a Post Graduate degree I have the full version - which is a large document (3.28 Mb of his drawings and my words) - from the author, who has given me permission to publish with the usual recognitions.  Doug Miners was a Traffic Officer who was also a driver trainer as a police officer and now as a civilian.

I do not think I will be able to attach it here for you as it is too big, but if VandADI wishes to email me we might be able to work out something that might be of mutual help to you all, if you are interested?

Regards,

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#13 29-07-09 07:21:49

johnnyfr
Verified Member
Registered: 06-01-07
Posts: 228
Website

Re: Emergency services

I'd like to see that, Barry, if poss.


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Level 4 PTLLS, Rospa Gold, NVQ Level 3 Driving Instruction, A1 Assessors Award, [URL=http://www.brake.org.uk]Brake[/URL] Road Safety Ambassador, DIA Taxi Trainer.
Visit us for [URL=http://www.prontopass.co.uk]Driving Lessons[/URL] or [URL=http://www.accufleet.co.uk]Fleet Driver Training[/URL]

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#14 29-07-09 07:38:36

barrykenward
Verified Member
From: Portchester Nr Fareham
Registered: 26-07-09
Posts: 53

Re: Emergency services

Morning John,

If you can send me your email maybe by PM I will send it via a web site that deals with large files.

Regards,

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#15 30-07-09 00:42:27

dog
Verified Member
Registered: 29-10-06
Posts: 813

Re: Emergency services

Hi, if you email me the files, I'll be happy to host them on my website

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#16 30-07-09 07:04:39

barrykenward
Verified Member
From: Portchester Nr Fareham
Registered: 26-07-09
Posts: 53

Re: Emergency services

Hi Dog,

I have sent the file to an address (with jani in it) via a Web Based bigfile transfer company. You should by now have notification.

I need to do some research so can I ask that people to use it do a critique for me - I will be doing a small single page document today for that purpose and I will then post it on the DDT forum.

Thanks in anticipation,

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#17 30-07-09 21:24:53

dog
Verified Member
Registered: 29-10-06
Posts: 813

Re: Emergency services

Have received it and will upload in a sec

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