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#26 22-11-08 23:00:30

driver69
Guest

Re: Leaving keys in car

Not sure what I'd do as I guess ADIs learn what each pupil is like so learn which ones are likely to be able to be trusted not to drive off and which mite.

It is not necessarily to do with trust, leaving an inexperienced driver with the keys could be asking for trouble.  What if they turned the key to adjust mirrors or turn radio on while waiting and it was in gear?  What if the ADI gets out of the car and someone distracts him and the pupil while someone else makes of with the car?  These are the things I consider and maybe I am paranoid but I remove the keys even when swapping seats.

Most pupils will be OK but it only needs to happen once and someone could be hurt or damage done.  I make a point of letting the pupils know why I take the keys out and encourage them to get into the habit of removing the keys so some opportunistic scumbag won`t nick their car some day while they nip out to post a letter or get something from the boot.

22-11-08 23:00:30

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Re: Leaving keys in car




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#27 23-11-08 00:40:50

Zipper
Verified Member
From: Darwin, Northern Territory Aus
Registered: 20-08-04
Posts: 2,697
Website

Re: Leaving keys in car

...Did the pupil lock the doors deliberate or was it just coincidence that it happened 3 times with same pupil?

No she didn't intend to lock me out, it was just her habit as a passenger to hop out and lock the door, she carried this over when behind the wheel of the training car as well.
Which shows how much habit controls our daily routine and the importance of developing SAFE habits early on.
And it wasn't really coincidence, it was the stupidity of a brand-new instructor who shall remain nameless (   ).

...maybe I am paranoid but I remove the keys even when swapping seats.

Not paranoid at all! Just safe practice and good sense.
I don't give them the key until I am seated alongside them.

...encourage them to get into the habit of removing the keys so some opportunistic scumbag won`t nick their car some day while they nip out to post a letter or get something from the boot.

A great idea too. I also stress this point when I take a student through a refuelling exercise, even if I leave them with the car while I go inside to pay, I lock the car and take the keys with me.

This thread highlights some seriously bad practices in the way our driver training & testing is conducted down here in the Northern Territory, Oz.

Before a tests commences, a basic roadworthy check is done with the candidate behind the wheel and ignition on, the examiner stands outside checking signal & brake lights, rego label, tyre tread etc.
Quite often the engine is running (airconditioner!) - it's the "Build-Up" season down here (the transition between the Dry and the Wet) and a car left out in the carpark for 10 minutes will result in an extremely hot cabin.
If it's one of my pupils I sit alongside the candidate while this is done but with private tests there is usually just the examiner and the candidate.

The reverse parallel park is done between two closely-spaced poles representing real cars, and this involves someone (the long-suffering instructor or examiner) hopping out to get the poles out of the boot and set them up, then get back in.
This is usually done with the student behind the wheel in the cool cabin, often with the engine still running.
To my knowledge there has never been an "incident" arising from these situations which is probably one of the reasons this practice continues, but that's no excuse of course - the potential for an accident and serious legal repercussions is still there.

A particularly stupid practice conducted by many of our "cowboy" instructors is to stand outside the car while the student tries reverse-parallel or bay parking, solo.
I've had some of these students, they told me their previous instructor's method of teaching is to say "keep practicing you'll know what to do after a while" then hop out and let them do it by themselves.


Zipper ("G'Day Mate!")
I'm not 65! I'm only $59.95+tax
www.drivingnt.com

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#28 08-12-08 02:45:24

Makem Drive
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-08
Posts: 197

Re: Leaving keys in car

It IS an OFFENCE to be in charge of a vehicle without a full licence (and it could void insurance) so if a L-driver is ANYWHERE in the vehicle with the keys (whether in the ignition, hand or pocket) & there is not a full licence holder in one of the front seats then it IS ILLEGAL & they would be liable to a fine & points for no licence or insurance.
I wonder what the DSA would have to say about an ADI or PDI leaving the keys in the ignition & pupil behind the wheel while going to pay for fuel if the pupil was prosecuted and complained.

As far as I am aware it is not illegal to leave the keys in the ignition, whether the engine is running or not, as long as the drivers seat is empty but the police may point out the error of the drivers way in the strongest terms.

I know of one lad who was asleep in the back of his car in the corner of a pub car park (with the landlords permission as her was going out with the daughter at the time & had done this several times), keys in pocket & doors locked. The police woke him up, breathaliased him & he was prosecuted for drunk in charge. Even if he had put the keys in the glovebox the police would have prosecuted him.

SUPER MARIO asks

Insert Quote
I know this is an old thread but what if you were driving a car and you had your friend with you who is not insured on the car and does not have a driving licence.  You pull into a car park and get out the car to go shopping or whatever.  Your friend doesn't want to come so you open the windows which are electric and you leave the keys with your friend.  While you are away your friend wants to shut the windows but the only way is to go round to the driver's side and and switch it the setting which allows you to shut windows and switch radio on etc.  Would your friend be committing a crime?

The answer is YES. A car par is classed as part of the public highway even though it is private land because the public have unrestricted access and the person in the vehicle with the keys in their possession is deemed to be in charge not matter what seat they are in.

Jazzer says

It is only unlawful if your sat in the drivers seat with the engine ON.

WRONG. The keys could be in your pocket (or even in the glovebox) & your are still deemed to be in charge as you are in the drivers seat & have access to the keys.

All that said, at the end of the test the DEs leave the pupil alone in the car with the keys regardless of passing or failing. Not sure what they do if they abandon the test and walk back to TC.

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#29 09-12-08 15:32:04

Target
Verified Member
From: Winchmore Hill North London
Registered: 17-01-05
Posts: 5,695
Website

Re: Leaving keys in car

We talk about people using common sense, or lets say driving examiners sometimes but I cannot beleive this post has gone into 3 pages.

Do I leave pupils in the car?....Yes

Do I leave the keys in the car?.......Yes

Lets get real...........Im sitting there with an adult who is learning to drive, im not going to patronise someone by taking the keys.

The day someone drives away with the car or theres a problem then ill change, but its not happened yet, or is that because ive given them some respect.


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#30 09-12-08 16:49:41

Makem Drive
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-08
Posts: 197

Re: Leaving keys in car

We talk about people using common sense, or lets say driving examiners sometimes but I cannot believe this post has gone into 3 pages.

Do I leave pupils in the car?....Yes

Do I leave the keys in the car?.......Yes

Lets get real...........I'm sitting there with an adult who is learning to drive, I'm not going to patronise someone by taking the keys.

The day someone drives away with the car or theres a problem then ill change, but its not happened yet, or is that because I've given them some respect.

Would you let them drive if you suspected they had been drinking & may be over the limit? No. So why would you leave them in charge of a motor vehicle if they do not have a licence & insurance (no licence & insurance cover is normally void)?

You are not being patronising by taken the keys, you are protecting their licence & pocket (and perhaps your own depending on the police/DSA view on this).

The day there is a problem will be too late for the pupil who then gets points or banned.

The Nissan Micro has a keyless system (sensor) which I keep in my pocket, If I have to go away from the vehicle I ask them to turn the 'key' to the steering lock position (otherwise the engine can still be started, the sensor is only needed in the car to unlock the steering) & explain why they need to do this.

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#31 09-12-08 19:43:50

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: Leaving keys in car

It IS an OFFENCE to be in charge of a vehicle without a full licence (and it could void insurance) so if a L-driver is ANYWHERE in the vehicle with the keys (whether in the ignition, hand or pocket) & there is not a full licence holder in one of the front seats then it IS ILLEGAL & they would be liable to a fine & points for no licence or insurance...................................

Think your getting a little confused here.You are confusing 3 seperate pieces of legislation. Driving, or being in charge, when under the influence of drink or drugs. Quitting. Drivers of motor vehicles to have driving licences.


Leaving a learner driver in the car with the keys is not illegal.


It is illegal to leave the keys in the ignition with the engine running and nobody in the drivers seat.

The story of the lad asleep in the pub car park is an old one, if true he must have had the worlds worst defence lawyer, section 4 subsection 3 of rta 1988 makes any conviction practically impossible under those circumstances.

The replies to super mario and jazzer are both incorrect.

If DE's abondon test, they usually leave keys with pupil in car (if pupil chooses not to walk back) no offence is being commited.




www.selbydriving.co.uk

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#32 09-12-08 21:03:42

Makem Drive
Verified Member
Registered: 27-06-08
Posts: 197

Re: Leaving keys in car

Tony

While I can't prove or disprove that a learner in a car with the keys & no full licence holder with them is not an offence I will still 'play safe' & remove the keys. I believed the information I was given to be true.

I do not leave the engine running when not in the drivers seat (except to post a letter) for security reasons but thought it was illegal, you have confirmed this.

The 'story' of the lad IS TRUE, I worked with him at the time (pre 1988), he wasn't banned but got several endorsements. After a couple of speeding offences he ended up with 15 current endorsements & still got away without a ban.

The replies to super mario & jazzer would be correct if the information I was given is correct. If you are correct in what you are saying then of course they will be wrong. It all boils down to whether 'being in charge of a vehicle without a valid full licence' is an offence or only becomes an offence when the vehicle is driven.

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#33 09-12-08 21:05:58

evanadi
Guest

Re: Leaving keys in car

We talk about people using common sense, or lets say driving examiners sometimes but I cannot beleive this post has gone into 3 pages.

Do I leave pupils in the car?....Yes

Do I leave the keys in the car?.......Yes

Lets get real...........Im sitting there with an adult who is learning to drive, im not going to patronise someone by taking the keys.

The day someone drives away with the car or theres a problem then ill change, but its not happened yet, or is that because ive given them some respect.

Good post Target. Mutual trust goes a long way. After all how many parents entrust their child's safety into the hands of a stranger to teach them to drive? Or pay 10 hours up front?.
Ev

#34 09-12-08 22:12:29

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: Leaving keys in car

Hi Makem

No offence but, bear in mind this is the section for learner drivers, anything we as ADI's post should be totally accurate. If your not sure of the accuracy of what you are posting, it's probably best not to post it so forcefully. Your use of capitals and stressing what you believe is and isn't an offence leads readers to assume what your saying is totally accurate. I posted only to correct those inaccuracies.

The moral debate about leaving the keys in the car with learners would be better conducted in the private ADI section. The legality is that there is no such offence.


www.selbydriving.co.uk

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“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy
state of things.”
~ Winston Churchill

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#35 21-01-09 21:21:01

Tracey89
Member
From: North/ East Yorkshire
Registered: 20-09-07
Posts: 51

Re: Leaving keys in car

My Instructors left me in his car with the keys a few times for various reasons, i wouldnt dream of turning the ingition on without him in the car, he also makes me do disel duty too if its on my lesson and lets me do it all by myself and makes me pay with my £20 i would normally give him at the end of the lesson, but he has taken the keys with him when he has had other pupils in the car i think its more of a trust thing, if i was the ADI i would take the keys with me at all times if i was leaving the car for whatever reson in a lesson.

XxTJxX


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