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#1 29-06-08 10:10:47

Pilgrim
Verified Member
From: Boston Lincolnshire
Registered: 27-02-04
Posts: 586
Website

Problem with Roadcraft

Hi All

I have just started training for my RoSPA Gold. I am reading Roadcraft but I am concerned about the way I find mistakes in the way it is written. I am used to using the DSA'S book but I have a problem with Roadcraft.
My trainer is having to agree that what I am suggesting is correct & Roadcraft wrong. I would have thought that by now the Police would have got there act together? Am I being to much of a stick in the mud or is there a need for a rethink about the content of Roadcraft

Let me illustrate what I am talking about.

In the car pre check the checking of the car door is at the end, why? I tell my students to check the car door first.

Also after checking the seat there is no mention of adjusting the steering wheel, why?

Another thing in Signals there is no mention of a change of speed as being considered as showing ones intention to take further action.

Lastly for now in Overtaking there is no mention of road marking being used to inform the prospective driver planning to overtake of any changes of road conditions.

Looking forward to your comments. I do not mean to cause trouble but I am just interested  in finding out more.

Tony


Offering You the Freedom of Drivng in Boston
www.bostondrivingschool.co.uk
www.12drive.co.uk

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29-06-08 10:10:47

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Re: Problem with Roadcraft




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#2 29-06-08 12:47:06

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

Hi All

I have just started training for my RoSPA Gold. I am reading Roadcraft but I am concerned about the way I find mistakes in the way it is written. I am used to using the DSA'S book but I have a problem with Roadcraft.
My trainer is having to agree that what I am suggesting is correct & Roadcraft wrong. I would have thought that by now the Police would have got there act together? Am I being to much of a stick in the mud or is there a need for a rethink about the content of Roadcraft

Let me illustrate what I am talking about.

In the car pre check the checking of the car door is at the end, why? I tell my students to check the car door first.

Does it really matter?  Roadcraft should be treated as a guide rather than taken literally.  If you look at the pre-driving checks, you will actually find that doors aren't the last thing to check anyway (mirrors and seat belt are preceded by doors amongst other things).

Also after checking the seat there is no mention of adjusting the steering wheel, why?

Does it need to?  Remember, learners often need to be given more specific information.

Another thing in Signals there is no mention of a change of speed as being considered as showing ones intention to take further action.

:?  How does changing speed show an intention to take further action?  You've left me a little confised on this one.

Lastly for now in Overtaking there is no mention of road marking being used to inform the prospective driver planning to overtake of any changes of road conditions.

Now, I have to admit I don't have the latest version of Roadcraft and can't lay my hands on the latest copy I had so I am having to use 'Fleetcraft' (Roadcraft with a different cover).

Fleetcraft wrote:

Make full use of road signs and road markings, especially those giving instructions or warning you of hazards ahead

Looking forward to your comments. I do not mean to cause trouble but I am just interested  in finding out more.

Tony

Why should questioning Roadcraft be considered causing trouble.  Nowt wrong with questioning anything - that's how we develop our understanding.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#3 29-06-08 13:02:55

Pilgrim
Verified Member
From: Boston Lincolnshire
Registered: 27-02-04
Posts: 586
Website

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

Hi Nigel

I am talking about the 2007 version of Roadcraft & I agree with you if you are talking about learners but I am studying for RosPA Gold which is a different standard.

I think of a change of speed as showing someones intention, taken from the Driving Tests idea of mirrors before changing speed.

An example being taken from a meeting situation the change of speed is used to decide a course of action.

What do you think?

Tony


Offering You the Freedom of Drivng in Boston
www.bostondrivingschool.co.uk
www.12drive.co.uk

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#4 29-06-08 14:20:13

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

Now, I have to admit I don't have the latest version of Roadcraft and can't lay my hands on the latest copy I had so I am having to use 'Fleetcraft' (Roadcraft with a different cover).

Fleetcraft wrote:

Make full use of road signs and road markings, especially those giving instructions or warning you of hazards ahead

Yes that's in R/craft too....Page 141 if it's any help 

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#5 29-06-08 14:37:38

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

You beat me to it Lynne, I've just been into town to buy a latest copy to check it out!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#6 29-06-08 15:11:16

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

....I think of a change of speed as showing someones intention, taken from the Driving Tests idea of mirrors before changing speed.

An example being taken from a meeting situation the change of speed is used to decide a course of action. ....

Aren't you changing speed as a result from your decision to take a particular course of action?

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#7 29-06-08 15:44:08

copone
Verified Member
From: Co. Durham
Registered: 03-07-05
Posts: 89

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

Total different driving environment. Big difference between DSA and Rospa. Advanced driving is an extension to what you were taught many years ago, but this system of driving makes driving easier and more relaxing, because of your "good" observations. Like any training book it is a guide, but a good guide.


ADI. Class 1 Police Advanced. HGV Class 1. Member of IAM AND DIA. Rospa Gold. National Diploma for Advanced Instruction. and Examiner. IAM fleet trainer. Safed trainer.

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#8 29-06-08 15:46:01

billrhoades
Verified Member
From: Northampton
Registered: 28-11-07
Posts: 184

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

As mentioned Roadcraft is NOT for novice drivers. As an advanced driver surely common sense tells you to make sure doors are shut. Does it matter in what order you do cockpit checks? DSSM sequence is flawed. Why put seatbelt on then struggle to adjust mirrors if you do not have electric mirrors.
Roadcraft as stated is a guide for experienced drivers and as such is open to interpretation.
This is what makes advanced driving such a joy to teach, no one way is the correct way so long as the system is used. IPSGA.
Great post sure to get many replies everyone voicing an opinion which in there view is correct. But is anyone correct, who says Roadcraft itself is correct!!!!

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#9 29-06-08 15:51:02

Pilgrim
Verified Member
From: Boston Lincolnshire
Registered: 27-02-04
Posts: 586
Website

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

Thank you for that guide.

It just that as I work through the book I am finding these discrepancies from how I train for the practical test.

When I ask my trainer he agrees with me but is unable to show me in the new book. I guessed there had to be the necessary information I am looking for.

Tony


Offering You the Freedom of Drivng in Boston
www.bostondrivingschool.co.uk
www.12drive.co.uk

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#10 29-06-08 21:12:37

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

You beat me to it Lynne, I've just been into town to buy a latest copy to check it out!

Nigel

Gosh Nige ...the dedication.    big_smile

As mentioned Roadcraft is NOT for novice drivers. As an advanced driver surely common sense tells you to make sure doors are shut. Does it matter in what order you do cockpit checks? DSSM sequence is flawed. Why put seatbelt on then struggle to adjust mirrors if you do not have electric mirrors.
Roadcraft as stated is a guide for experienced drivers and as such is open to interpretation.
This is what makes advanced driving such a joy to teach, no one way is the correct way so long as the system is used. IPSGA.
Great post sure to get many replies everyone voicing an opinion which in there view is correct. [color=red]But is anyone correct, who says Roadcraft itself is correct!!!![/color]

You sound like my RoSPA Dip Trainer Bill!

When I did my Dip course my trainer was adamant the seatbelt was the LAST thing he'd put on AFTER the ignition was started.  (That caused quite a long thread on another forum....and so they went on...  roll and on....  roll)  He wanted a quick escape if the car caught fire!!  I could put my seatbelt on when I liked but he was waiting.... big_smile  ..so who is correct then  :?

On exam day I did my RoSPA Dip Drive with 'Bob 1'  smile and from what I can remember through my 'pre-drive' check drill and me wittering, he put his seatbelt on more or less just before we moved away...I think.... neutral

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#11 29-06-08 21:25:24

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

Roadcraft -v- DSA...well unless you are 'horsey' you may not understand this but how I see it is....you sit on a horse...(you get in a car)

You want to ride cowboy style or you want to ride dressage style (as an example).  You may mix and match (but not at competition time some of the judges would have a fit)

It is 2 different styles.  Neither way is right/wrong...just what you want out of it at the time and you draw on your knowledge to apply what you need at the time..it is just a broader base from which to draw information from.... big_smile

Simple.  Why make it complicated  :?

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#12 29-06-08 22:18:33

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

I am reading Roadcraft but I am concerned about the way I find mistakes in the way it is written.

I am used to using the DSA'S book

Books, books and more books. Confusing aren't they? Even that holy grail the highway code.

Who do you think writes these books? Do you think everybody concerned with them agrees entirely with their content? Even the highway code is a compromise, there are plenty of very experienced, highly respected driving professionals who don't entirely agree with some of the advice it contains.

They are all a compromise, a basic set of guidelines to help with whatever style of driving the authors prescribe to. They are not meant to be taken as cast in stone, all encompassing, fully definitive and inflexible.

You seem to be asking is it right or is it wrong? You seem to want nice neat black and white answers. Do you really mean what you say here;

My trainer is having to agree that what I am suggesting is correct & Roadcraft wrong.

While your thinking in terms so rigid you will find it difficult to get to grips with the ideas being expressed by different driving styles. There simply is no right and wrong, some of the ideas expressed are useful and perhaps preferable in some situations, if you have the necessary skills and experience to implement them.

Just out of interest by the way, why are you doing RoSPA?


www.selbydriving.co.uk

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“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy
state of things.”
~ Winston Churchill

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#13 29-06-08 22:42:03

Pilgrim
Verified Member
From: Boston Lincolnshire
Registered: 27-02-04
Posts: 586
Website

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

I am doing my RoSPA Gold to help with my five year plan. smile

Step 1  RoSPA Gold
Step 2  DIA Diploma
Step 3  Bikeability Qualification

Estimated time scale 3 years I hope.

In my Area I do not see the need to train for other Qualifications such as Fleet (we already have 2 instructors Qualfied & 2 training.) Motorcycle, LGV & Bus  (nearest test centre 35 miles away)

So I have decided to follow an other direction. Roadsafety - Why not start in the Schools then onto Driving Instruction, then Advanced Driving. In my Area there are no Bikeability Instructors so being the first could give me an edge.

What are your plans?

Tony




Offering You the Freedom of Drivng in Boston
www.bostondrivingschool.co.uk
www.12drive.co.uk

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#14 29-06-08 23:10:34

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

What I meant was why are you doing it if you think it's wrong?

Not being critical of you in any way, whatever career path you choose is entirely up to you. Was just interested in why (since you appear from your post to have reservations about what you are being told in roadcraft) you were doing it.


www.selbydriving.co.uk

12.gif

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy
state of things.”
~ Winston Churchill

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#15 30-06-08 05:59:37

Pilgrim
Verified Member
From: Boston Lincolnshire
Registered: 27-02-04
Posts: 586
Website

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

Hi Tony
tongue Do not worry it is just that sometimes I look at my training from an Intra - personal prospective.

I love my job just developing my Diamond Field ( Smart Instructors will understand ;-) )

Tony


Offering You the Freedom of Drivng in Boston
www.bostondrivingschool.co.uk
www.12drive.co.uk

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#16 30-06-08 07:05:17

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

So are you a fully paid up disciple of the guru then???  big_smile big_smile


www.selbydriving.co.uk

12.gif

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy
state of things.”
~ Winston Churchill

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#17 30-06-08 07:12:04

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

Couple of comments Pilgrim,

If you have no plans to enter the Fleet market, might the DIA Diploma be worth doing before the RoSPA?

Does your council have any plans to become Bikeability registered?  There are subsidies available to cover instructor training at the moment, so it may be worth investigating so you don't have to pay for it at a later date.  Bikeability is just a branded version of the new National Standards, but can only be delivered through a registered provider (normally the local council).

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#18 01-07-08 13:41:59

HereComesTrouble
Guest

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

I once spotted a spelling mistake in the bible. Does that mean God doesn't exist?

Point made I think!

#19 01-07-08 14:08:22

martyn48
Guest

Re: Problem with Roadcraft

Best post of the whole thread Tony.....Top man.!! wink

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