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#1 26-05-08 11:56:33

jo
Member
Registered: 10-11-07
Posts: 27

10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

Twice in the last week I have been out driving, once on a dual carriageway with a 70 mph speed limit and on some other road which I think was a 30 mph speed limit.  Both these roads were being resurfaced in certain parts and had signs saying reduce speed to 10mph.  None of the other drivers on either road took the blindest bit of notice of these signs and carried on regardless, at the higher speeds.  I wasn't sure what speed to do, especially on the dual carriageway as I thought if I obeyed the signs, I would have been the only driver to do so and I would have probably caused an accident.  What do you think would have been the correct thing to do, please?

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26-05-08 11:56:33

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Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced



#2 26-05-08 12:07:51

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,596

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

The temporary speed reduction signs are only advisory so you will need to apply common sense to decide which speed is safest.  If you can hear and feel the stone chippings hitting the car you will have to reduce your speed accordingly.  If stick to the 10mph sign with no chippings flying you will encourage drivers to overtake and likely to cause an accident as the vehicle overtaking will be more likely to throw a stone at your windscreen.

This happened on test recently where my pupil failed for sticking to the advisory 10mph sign (with no chippings flying)when she could have driven at 30mph safely enough.

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#3 26-05-08 12:11:07

tony adi
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From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
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Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

Do the safest thing taking into account other traffic. As you say doing 10mph while everybody else is doing 70 would be dangerous. The 10mph signs used when resurficing are (most times) not legally enforcable. In the 30mph zone, take account of the fact that loose chippings are likely to fly up and possibly injure pedestrians or damage other cars. In each situation I would go at a speed appropriate to the actual conditions. Have seen these 10mph signs left out for days or even weeks after the work has finished.

Unfortunately not being there can't be much more help. Each situation is different and your instructor should be able to guide you to doing what is the safest thing in each situation. Bear in mind though that a little common sense can go a long way.


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#4 26-05-08 12:35:38

Kev D
Verified Member
From: Cheshire
Registered: 25-06-06
Posts: 306

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

If the sign displayed is a red circle limit then you MUST obey that speed limit.  If it is shown in any other type of sign then it is advisory and the above advice should be followed.


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Grade 6 ADI - May 2013

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#5 26-05-08 17:00:34

tony adi
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From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
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Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

I'm sure kev that if you think about that you may want to change your advice.

MUST is a very strong word to use when giving general advice without qualifying it with all the various rules and regs regarding signage.


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#6 26-05-08 18:11:12

Kev D
Verified Member
From: Cheshire
Registered: 25-06-06
Posts: 306

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

Thank you Tony, I have reconsidered my advice about red circle speed limits (including temporary speed limits) and will stick with my original post.  If the speed limit is displayed inside a red circle then you [img=Verdana][font=Verdana]MUST[/img][/font] obey that limit.


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Grade 6 ADI - May 2013

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#7 26-05-08 18:19:17

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,596

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

Red rings or circled signs tell you what you MUST NOT do, eg you must not exceed 30mph,  so what Kev D is saying is that you MUST obey that sign.

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#8 26-05-08 21:46:46

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

Even if the sign is wrong?

The recommended guidelines for temporary speed restrictions on D/C or motorway are 50mph or 40mph in exceptional circumstances.

http://www.highways.gov.uk/aboutus/docu … manual.pdf

Don't mean to get into an argument about it but saying you MUST do 10mph on a 70mph road just because some contractor has put the wrong sign up is (in my humble opinion) dangerous advice.

Surely safety is the over riding priority in any situation?
Suddenly slowing from 70 to 10mph without a !!!!!!!! good reason strikes me as not very safe. Which is why speed reductions tend to be graduated. Ever noticed that on matrix boards the speed reductions are graduated?

The law may well say that a red circle is a command sign. There are also an awful lot of laws governing the correct use of such signage. If the use is wrong the sign is unlawful therefore MUST does not come into it.

As per my original reply. Do what is SAFE. Don't we teach Safe, Legal, Convenient anymore? Which one comes first?

Just in extreme circumstances by the way, personally I would rather have 3 points on my licence than a headstone that said "He did what the sign said"


www.selbydriving.co.uk

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“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy
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~ Winston Churchill

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#9 27-05-08 05:06:39

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

Even if the sign is wrong?

The recommended guidelines for temporary speed restrictions on D/C or motorway are 50mph or 40mph in exceptional circumstances.

http://www.highways.gov.uk/aboutus/docu … manual.pdf

Don't mean to get into an argument about it but saying you MUST do 10mph on a 70mph road just because some contractor has put the wrong sign up is (in my humble opinion) dangerous advice.

Who said you MUST do 10mph?  Kev and Vanda have said that, if the speed restriction is a number inside a red circle, than it MUST be obeyed ie you must not EXCEED 10 mph, slightly different from you MUST do 10 mph.

Surely safety is the over riding priority in any situation?

Not when the fine will be coming out of myown pocket!  I am quite proud to have never had any points on my licence so just because many other drivers are ignoring a mandatory speed restriction doesn't mean I will do the same!  If they want to make some voluntary contributions to the government coffers than that is up to them - I'm not a sheep!

Suddenly slowing from 70 to 10mph without a !!!!!!!! good reason strikes me as not very safe.

Strikes me that the driver wasn't looking far enough ahead!

Which is why speed reductions tend to be graduated. Ever noticed that on matrix boards the speed reductions are graduated?

Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.  Besides the old matrix boards (the ones down the centre of a mototway) were only capable of displaying an advisory speed limit.

The law may well say that a red circle is a command sign. There are also an awful lot of laws governing the correct use of such signage. If the use is wrong the sign is unlawful therefore MUST does not come into it.

As per my original reply. Do what is SAFE. Don't we teach Safe, Legal, Convenient anymore? Which one comes first?

Just in extreme circumstances by the way, personally I would rather have 3 points on my licence than a headstone that said "He did what the sign said"

sheep_racing.jpg

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#10 27-05-08 07:37:57

tony adi
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From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
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Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

You are entitled to your opinion nigel. But the tone of your post does you no credit.


I repeat SAFETY comes first.


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~ Winston Churchill

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#11 27-05-08 12:12:34

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

Just as a small aside MUST you comply with this sign? After all it has a red circle round it. It is a number inside a red circle, which according to you nigel MUST be obeyed.

[IMG]http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i197/tonym2678/roadsign4.jpg[/img]


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~ Winston Churchill

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#12 27-05-08 16:11:58

Kev D
Verified Member
From: Cheshire
Registered: 25-06-06
Posts: 306

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

Tony, road traffic law is absolute.  What this means is that you are guilty of an offence or you are not, there is no mitigation.

We do not hold the position that we can choose which laws will apply to us and which do not even if we think we know better.  I agree that some signs may not be what we think they should be and may not always agree with the sign that is placed.  However if it is a prohibitive red circle speed limit sign then that is the limit in force and it must be obeyed.


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#13 27-05-08 23:21:55

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

Tony, road traffic law is absolute.  What this means is that you are guilty of an offence or you are not, there is no mitigation.

Wrong

However if it is a prohibitive red circle speed limit sign then that is the limit in force and it must be obeyed.

Wrong

Read this
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Uk … 80052_en_1

And this
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1991/uk … 10040_en_1

And this
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm

The're just for starters you also need all the amendments and updates.

One of the problems with road traffic law is a lot of people think they know what is and isn't legal. It's very surprising some of the things even well trained people get wrong.
Another thing is the reason all these laws exist in the first place. They are there to make the roads SAFER. The primary consideration in any situation is SAFETY. It has nothing to do with whether or not I (or anybody else) does or doesn't agree with a sign.

Very few things in road traffic law are absolutes (no insurance is one of the few there is no defence against). There are thousands of cases of RTA violations which have been succesfully mitigated.

As I said before MUST is a very strong word when used without further qualification. We teach people to drive and advice them on what is and isn't legal. They do sometimes take that advice to heart. So let's say we've told somebody that they MUST slow to 10mph (or below for the pedants) whilst on a 70mph road if the signs in a red circle. They then do exactly that and cause a fatal collision because everybody else was doing 70. Yes everybody else may well have been in the wrong but people are still dead. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right or that we should give people carte blanch to do what they like, just that they should look at the whole situation and think before blindly resorting to MUST do this MUST do that. Such a huge difference in speed on a fast road is inherently dangerous which is why people have been prosecuted by the police for going too slow on motorways and D/C's.
All I am saying is there is more to SAFE driving than simply repeating MUST as per the highway code.


www.selbydriving.co.uk

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#14 27-05-08 23:31:04

EKAL
Verified Member
From: East Kilbride
Registered: 23-04-06
Posts: 1,050
Website

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

"its a Limit NOT a Target" simple as that


DSA ADI, DSA Fleet, RoADAR Diploma, RoADAR Gold.
SAFED for LGV/HGV - SAFED train the trainer
Driver CPC Trainer
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#15 28-05-08 00:40:09

den676
Verified Member
From: Nottingham
Registered: 18-02-06
Posts: 463

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

Drivers to comply with traffic signs (1) Where a traffic sign, being a sign—
(a) of the prescribed size, colour and type, or
(b) of another character authorised by the Secretary of State under the provisions in that behalf of the [1984 c. 27.] Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984,
has been lawfully placed on or near a road, a person driving or propelling a vehicle who fails to comply with the indication given by the sign is guilty of an offence.

Sounds clear enough I would have thought

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#16 28-05-08 04:46:28

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

....So let's say we've told somebody that they MUST slow to 10mph (or below for the pedants) whilst on a 70mph road if the signs in a red circle.

Yes, let's.

They then do exactly that and cause a fatal collision because everybody else was doing 70.

So, how is that fatal accident caused?  By the person doing 10?  That isn't very realistic is it?  Surely the fatality is much more likely to be caused by those breaking the speed limit, not by the person doing the correct speed!  I'm making the assumption that the person has seen the sign & slowed down in plenty of time and isn't seeing the sign late and almost doing an emergency stop!

Yes everybody else may well have been in the wrong but people are still dead. I'm not saying two wrongs make a right or that we should give people carte blanch to do what they like, just that they should look at the whole situation and think before blindly resorting to MUST do this MUST do that. Such a huge difference in speed on a fast road is inherently dangerous which is why people have been prosecuted by the police for going too slow on motorways and D/C's.

But these prosecutions weren't for when the prevailing speed limit was 10mph and the person being prosecuted was doing 10mph whilst everyone else was doing 70.  So this example isn't actually relevant!

All I am saying is there is more to SAFE driving than simply repeating MUST as per the highway code.

You also appear to suggest that 70mph is safe in a 10mph limit.  I can just imagine the magistrates reply when someone is prosecuted for doing 70 in a 10mph limit and the defense is 'But everyone else was doing 70'!  Oh!  That's alright then, off you go?  I don't think so somehow!

Sorry, but I am not going to start breaking a law, simply because 'everyone else is'.  Let us know when you are prosecuted for speeding and you use the defense that 'everyone else was doing the same'.  I would be extremely interested in the result.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#17 28-05-08 08:21:06

Kev D
Verified Member
From: Cheshire
Registered: 25-06-06
Posts: 306

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

I have stated my position on this matter clearly enough and I will choose not to break the law.  Nothing in the acts you posted links to has shown me anything to consider revising that decision.  I see no point in me continuing to debate this issue as we both have quite strong views and I doubt either of us will be swayed.

However you have the right to choose to do whatever you wish and I too would be interested to know how you get on in a court of law with this particular defence.

Best of luck,

Stay safe!


Police Driver Trainer
Grade 6 ADI - May 2013

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#18 28-05-08 15:13:58

RhiannonxXx
Member
Registered: 18-05-08
Posts: 20

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

What if you were doing 60mph on a single carriageway, with someone doing 50 mph behind you. Someone decides to overtake the car doing 50, then all of a sudden, another vehicle is coming straight towards him and because he hasn't seen you when overtaking the slower car, he can no longer get back in the right lane unless you react and speed up, therefore breaking the speed limit but allowing the overtaking car to get back in lane and avoid a fatal head on collision.

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#19 28-05-08 15:23:43

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,596

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

If you are referring to the overtaking car not being able to move back into the LEFT lane then In this case Rhiannon the driver  of the car doing 50mph being an assertive and defensive driver that he/she is can see the situation unfolding infront of them should then hold back allowing the overtaking car to slot infront of them after all regular mirror checks would reveal that the car was going to overtake and be prepared to slow down so the overtaking car can slot infront of them.

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#20 28-05-08 22:13:07

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

Quoting out of context and making the implication that I have suggested something that I have not is not going to elicit any response.


To complete the quote from den676
(1) Where a traffic sign, being a sign—
(a) of the prescribed size, colour and type, or
(b) of another character authorised by the Secretary of State under the provisions in that behalf of the [1984 c. 27.] Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984,
has been lawfully placed on or near a road, a person driving or propelling a vehicle who fails to comply with the indication given by the sign is guilty of an offence.
(2) A traffic sign shall not be treated for the purposes of this section as having been lawfully placed unless either—
(a) the indication given by the sign is an indication of a statutory prohibition, restriction or requirement, or
(b) it is expressly provided by or under any provision of the Traffic Acts that this section shall apply to the sign or to signs of a type of which the sign is one;
and, where the indication mentioned in paragraph (a) of this subsection is of the general nature only of the prohibition, restriction or requirement to which the sign relates, a person shall not be convicted of failure to comply with the indication unless he has failed to comply with the prohibition, restriction or requirement to which the sign relates.
(3) For the purposes of this section a traffic sign placed on or near a road shall be deemed—
(a) to be of the prescribed size, colour and type, or of another character authorised by the Secretary of State under the provisions in that behalf of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, and
(b) (subject to subsection (2) above) to have been lawfully so placed,
unless the contrary is proved.


As I said earlier if the sign has been wrongly placed then MUST does not come into it. The guidelines for speed reductions through roadworks are a reduction of 20-30mph not 60. A disparity in speed of 60mph would be extremely unusual. So before blindly thinking MUST reduce to 10mph I would assess the whole situation, apply some common sense and act accordingly taking into account the safety of myself and other road users. This may possibly mean that I would reduce my speed to 10mph if I thought it safe to do so, or possibly not.

Also as I said earlier mitigating circumstances can be, and often are, taken into account by courts. I presume that most ADI's know about "unique circumstances pertaining to the individual situation" "permitted defences" and "special reasons" especially those who claim IAMS RoSPA SAFED etc etc.


www.selbydriving.co.uk

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“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same
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#21 29-05-08 04:37:31

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

....
As I said earlier if the sign has been wrongly placed then MUST does not come into it. The guidelines for speed reductions through roadworks are a reduction of 20-30mph not 60. A disparity in speed of 60mph would be extremely unusual. So before blindly thinking MUST reduce to 10mph I would assess the whole situation, apply some common sense and act accordingly taking into account the safety of myself and other road users. This may possibly mean that I would reduce my speed to 10mph if I thought it safe to do so, or possibly not.
....

Perhaps the guidelines do only suggest a reduction of 20-30mph.  But then they are only guidelines.  Remember guidelines suggest that speed cameras be set to 10%+2, but that doesn't stop North Wales doing people for 1 or 2 mph over the limit.

I have been on the M25 where the variable speed limits are displaying 30mph (ie 40mph below the normal 70mph).  Are you suggesting, Tony, that I don't have to obey that?

To date, I have yet to see a speed limit sign that I know has been wrongly placed (the councils don't tend to put another sign next to it to inform us that the speed sign has been wrongly placed).  I don't have the time when planning a route to investigate which speed signs have been wrongly placed either.  This means that I operate on the assumption that the speed signs I see have been placed correctly, therefore I will obey them.

To be fair, there have been a couple of exceptions, some roadworks on the M4, in the evening all but one of the 50mph signs had been turned round - so this one was all on its own and for the speed limit to apply they should be regularly placed along the stretch of road (and that regularly placed is probably a specified distance in law - but I don't care what that distance is, I'm hardly going to get out of the car and measure it to see whether I need to comply or not!).  I wish, when they remove the temporary signs they would also get rid of the 'end of speed restriction' signs too - when I see those I start worrying that I have gone through and missed a restriction!

So, I accept your 'wrongly placed' argument, but still disagree with your 'everyone else is still doing 70' argument!

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#22 29-05-08 07:20:01

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

No I am not suggesting you don't have to obey variable speed limits on the M25. Which as you are no doubt aware is covered by seperate legislation
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2001/uksi_20013763_en.pdf

We are talking about quite rare circumstances where there is genuine and legitimate confusion as to whether or not it is safe to travel at the posted speed limit.

To say one must never exceed the posted limit no matter what the circumstances is not, to my mind anyway, safe advice. Can you genuinely say that you would never in any circumstances exceed any speed limit sign no matter what? If you came across a situation where there was real danger posed to you or somebody else you would stick rigidly to the letter of the law?

I should point out that I teach people what the H/C says and what the law says. I teach them that they should obey the rules of the H/C and road traffic act. I point out the possible consequences of breaking the law. But I also point out that if they meet a situation where there is genuine danger then they need to decide, based on what is happening round them, whether sticking to the letter of the law is really worth dying for. I also advise them that they may well have to justify their actions in a court of law.

On reflection perhaps i could have made this clearer in my earlier posts, perhaps how I phrased things could have been taken wrongly. I am not advocating or condoning breaking any speed limits. Simply saying there is more to it than that. I would hate to think that one day somebody I have taught would one day die because I instilled in them a rigid doctrine of MUST MUST MUST.

One of the examples I use when explaining to people that they should think for themselves is the runaway lorry story. I'm sure you have heard it or a similar version. You are sat at a red traffic light at the bottom of a hill, in your rear view mirror you see a runaway lorry heading straight for you. If you stay where you are the lorry is going to hit and possibly kill you. The highway code says you MUST not go through that red light. Are you really going to stay there?


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#23 29-05-08 07:40:27

VandADI
Administrator
From: Coulsdon, Surrey
Registered: 29-02-04
Posts: 7,596

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

To date, I have yet to see a speed limit sign that I know has been wrongly placed (the councils don't tend to put another sign next to it to inform us that the speed sign has been wrongly placed).  I don't have the time when planning a route to investigate which speed signs have been wrongly placed either.  This means that I operate on the assumption that the speed signs I see have been placed correctly, therefore I will obey them.

I have come across situations where local kids have spun signs around - one side showing national speed limit, other side showing 30mph limit yikes

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#24 29-05-08 08:11:14

tony adi
Verified Member
From: Selby
Registered: 12-05-08
Posts: 1,233
Website

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

So what would you do Vanda?

The earlier advise was MUST obey the red circle  :evil: :evil: big_smile big_smile

Sorry to sound facetious but just re inforces the point that MUST is a very strong word without further explanation and the application of common sense.


www.selbydriving.co.uk

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“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy
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~ Winston Churchill

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#25 29-05-08 08:22:47

helee
Verified Member
Registered: 12-11-06
Posts: 182

Re: 10mph speed limits when roads are being re-surfaced

Reading the thread I was totally against tony

I see that it has also been blown out of proportion ie being triangle and circle signs and people having their say

But after the post above I have to agree with Tony. If you are local and know the sign is wrong (kids spun the sign around) then do you obey the lower speed limit?

I think Tony is correct to say MUST you have to back it up BUT I also agree with earlier posts about breaking speed limits just because everyone else is

Lee

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