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#1 15-02-05 23:19:14

dashdriving.com
Member
From: Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Hu
Registered: 29-11-04
Posts: 148
Website

Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

Hi all,

I'd like to ask you all about your opinions on brake - gear overlap?

Roadcraft has provision for brake - gear overlap in certain circumstances and I just wondered what you all think of it.

I was chatting to an advanced Police instructor last week and he was telling me that brake - gear overlap is now taught as a standard technique by the Police for high speed response and pursuit driving. Apparantly, they now use overlap in almost all situations, even at low speed.

It seems that several Police driving schools around the country actively teach overlap as a 'driving tool' to be used on most occasions. The reasoning, it seems, is that Roadcraft has to be flexible and has to be adapted with advancing vehicle technology.

I know that ROSPA are absolutely adamant about overlap . . . ie don't do it . . .whereas the IAM seem a little more relaxed (now hiding behind the sofa, avoiding the flack).

I'm told that some Police driving schools even regard ROSPA and the IAM as being 'old fashioned' and well behind advances in Roadcraft (his words - not mine - I'm still ducking!)

Please note, when I refer to 'Roadcraft' I mean the system, not the book.

Now I'm NOT saying that I think it's right or it's wrong . . . unlike me, I know, but I'm very happy to sit firmly on my very wide fence with this one!

What do you think? I'd be very interested indeed in your opinions. Particularly from the Police advanced drivers out there.

regards,

Dave H

Just a note . . . to the two ex Traffic Police SE ADI's I was chatting to last week, NO, this is not in response to our conversation!!!


Dave Hartley
ADI Trainer for Dash driving

www.dashdriving.com

you never do anything wrong,
you just find new ways of not doing it right.

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15-02-05 23:19:14

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Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?




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#2 15-02-05 23:45:26

Lynne
Verified Member
From: Essex
Registered: 05-03-04
Posts: 925

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

Hi Dave

I've just finished my observed runs; waiting for a test date (RoSPA) and have been taught NOT to BGOL.  If I occasionally do it will be at the very tail end of braking.  I don't find it a problem and don't find myself slowing down too soon either.  My observer has just been re-tested and retained his gold too (ex class 1) and obviously the examiner hasn't had a problem with it.

Even so, I'd be interested on other people's views too. 

Regards

Lynne

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#3 16-02-05 12:53:01

crr003
Guest

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

dashdriving.com wrote:

Roadcraft has provision for brake - gear overlap in certain circumstances and I just wondered what you all think of it.

Please note, when I refer to 'Roadcraft' I mean the system, not the book.

I'm quite happy to avoid BGOL.  I have situations where I will do it - downhill left/right hand turns etc, but then this is described in RC.

Once in a while this question comes up on the IAM forum - usual polarised views.  It's like Pull-Push..........

If all the Police training is ignoring the current edition of RC on this subject, when will we see an updated version? 

Roger
IAM/RoADA

#4 16-02-05 19:30:47

Graham
Guest

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

Dave, this one's going to run and run !!

Ok, being of the old school, I was taught never to overlap. Always separate braking and gears. But it wasn't long before I worked out for myself that I could, in certain circumstances, overlap quite safetly. And it felt natural.

Fearing that I would be burnt at the stake if anyone should ever find out that I was dabbling with heresy, I tried to suppress the urge. But it just wouldn't go away.

So it's nice, after all these years, to be able to come out!

I would always advocate separate use of brake and gears to begin with. Just to know the difference. Because it will run up behind you and bite severely if you get it wrong.

So my thoughts are that it has to be a good thing. But like any skill, it requires a lot of experience and practice to make it look natural. And safe.

#5 17-02-05 22:04:27

ADI349
Verified Member
From: East Yorkshire
Registered: 24-01-05
Posts: 193

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

Hi Dash

You will find a variation between Police Training Establishments.  I have had experience of several.  Some allow the flexibility of B/G overlap other like my current one are adamantly against it. One I've been to insist on double de-clutch on every downchange.  When you read roadcraft you will see B/G overlap is allowed provided it part of a planned approach however there seems to me to be some contradiction in Roadcraft. You will also find a difference in taking an early gear in anticipation of a hazard clearing such as a roundabout.(it's not quite as simple as that) however all will become clear to you in the future.  Some call it flexibility other won't emtertain it.  As I said before if you want any advise give me a bell.
Speak to you soon

Ps349 wink


If you only do what you've always done, you will only achieve what you've always achieved

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#6 17-02-05 22:35:18

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

Double de-clutch is truly out of date and is no longer required.  Sustained gear changing gives the smooth down changes required.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#7 17-02-05 22:40:46

ADI349
Verified Member
From: East Yorkshire
Registered: 24-01-05
Posts: 193

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

I agree. but you can't tell them taht


ADI349 :shock:


If you only do what you've always done, you will only achieve what you've always achieved

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#8 17-02-05 22:43:54

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

Why not?


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#9 17-02-05 22:48:45

ADI349
Verified Member
From: East Yorkshire
Registered: 24-01-05
Posts: 193

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

Well it is a National Police Driver Training establishment that in some ways, in my opinion, is stuck in its ways.  However, when in Rome do as the Romans do and don't make to many waves.  In the police service it doesn't get you too many friends.

What you find is that there are different interpretations of Roadcraft in certain areas even with driver training department, not good at time hey but that's life.

adi349 :shock:


If you only do what you've always done, you will only achieve what you've always achieved

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#10 17-02-05 22:53:10

ExAdiNigel
Member
From: Plymouth, Devon
Registered: 13-12-04
Posts: 4,739

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

Yes, not too healthy if they are set in their ways.  We should all be open to considering change, provided it isn't just for the sake of change.

I though most of the police forces had their own driver training functions and it wasn't done on a national basis.  I understood Wiltshire, Gloucestershire & Thames Valley all had their own independant training facilities.

Nigel


National Standards Cycling Instructor, Ex Adi

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#11 17-02-05 22:58:47

ADI349
Verified Member
From: East Yorkshire
Registered: 24-01-05
Posts: 193

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

They do but a lot of forces driver training departments send their Instructors on Nationally Accredited Instuctors courses at regional training centres.

I often ask students
1. If you always do what you have always done, you will always achieve what you have always achieved, try somnething differnet ie a flexible approach.
2 Is it better to be prepared should an opportunity arise or an apporunity arise and not be prepared for it.
These were two of the things I was told when on a Nartional Police Instructors Course.  Unfortunatley not everyone agrees.

adi349 wink


If you only do what you've always done, you will only achieve what you've always achieved

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#12 18-02-05 22:35:37

harvey
Guest

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

deleted!

#13 18-02-05 23:17:13

ADI349
Verified Member
From: East Yorkshire
Registered: 24-01-05
Posts: 193

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

Harvey

Couldn't havve put it better myself. Deal with each hazard according to the circumstances and choose the most appropriate action.  ie Flexibility wink


If you only do what you've always done, you will only achieve what you've always achieved

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#14 20-02-05 14:57:45

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

I have spoken to 4 local police driving schools,over and above mine and they all advocate seperation of BGOL,in normal driving ie none pursuit and response,they do however show the advantages of when a BGOL is essential. Roadcraft is pretty clear on this and does say that no matter how it is done,it should be planned.
None of these forces teach double de clutching as in there words went out when synchromesh gearboxes were introduced,so they have moved forward to the 21st century,personally I can not see any need for this method in the modern day vehicles.
As far as BGOL is concerned I can see the arguement for both for and against,however if it is carried out correctly then there is no need to BGOL unless of course someone is pushing hard on your back door,this is the reason that I feel that most people feel that it is out of date,to support the fast lifestyle and poor standards of driving that we see on a daily basis,so what I would say drive accordingly for the circumstances,if a BGOL is required then do if is not then don't,good observation will let you know in advance.
                                    Stephen

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#15 20-02-05 15:53:13

Graham
Guest

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

"None of these forces teach double de clutching as in there words went out when synchromesh gearboxes were introduced,"

Stephen,

Not quite that long ago! I got my Class One certificate in 1979. I was taught double de-clutching then and it was expected on subsequent check tests for a few years after that.

When it was dropped, I don't know. I was also taught sustained rev changing, which I still use to this day.

The double d/c was difficult to master for sure, but didn't it feel good when you did! Especially on overtake approach!

The advantages were (and still are) that it balances the lay drive shafts in the box in a way that sus revs can't do. Probably only works enough on rear wheel drive cars to notice.

!!!!!!!! hell, I came over like an anorak there! :shock:

Fair took me back a few years.  roll

#16 20-02-05 23:58:37

Stephen7738
Member
From: Warrington
Registered: 12-10-04
Posts: 305

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

I took mine in 1995 this was not being taught then,this was probably due to the introduction of the new Roadcraft manual back in 1994,a lot of things have changed in police driver training since the late 70s hence there being no need to double de clutch these days,just like me when I took my class 1 LGV back in 1982 I was shown how to double de-clutch in the old D series ford that I learnt in.
Now adays that requirement has also gone in the modern day 42 tonner although old habits die hard I still find myself doing this in artics as I feel there is more time to do this,but again I can see the advantages along with the disadvantages but I dont feel that this style of driving has a role in todays driving,just my opinion.
                     Stephen

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#17 21-02-05 09:30:25

Graham
Guest

Re: Brake gear overlap . . . Love it, or loath it?

Hi Stephen
I wasn't suggesting that double de-clutching does have a place in todays driving, just that it didn't go out when synchro gears came in!

I trained in V8 Rovers and BMW's. Although I obtained my Class One in 1979, I retained it until I retired 4-5 years ago. So I think I was reasonably up to date.

I only ever use it now when I drive a PCV and then only when it's an older model. BGOL is another matter though. I would never use that whilst in a 'heavy'. I agree that old habits die hard; as long as we're safe it's no problem.

Now imagining me teaching a learner to double d/c in my Focus!  lol

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